THIS IS A GUIDE. It works for my 460whp 3800. Like it, use it. Don't like it, don't use it.
Got a 3800 swap? Do you have a manual trans? If so, read on. I have shared this info with only DH and John at Intense Racing. John was really excited and passed the info on to Brunton (Stalker kit car maker).
So getting rather annoyed with my flywheel bolts backing out I came up with a permanent solution to the problem. Toss those stupid hardware & chevy cam bolts in the trash. Here is the absolute remedy. I spent 2 hrs on the phone with Art at ARP. That guy is amazing. We had several different options:
alexc@arpfasteners.com ARP special order Hi Steven, Thank you for your interest in ARP's Specialty Products Department. Below is the price information you requested for your custom fasteners.
Qty. 40 *3AG1.000-10CL Price $20.92 ea (5/16-18 x 1.000” 12-point bolt | .620” head collar OD | Custom Age 625+ material) We would recommend 32-34 ft/lbs on these with our ARP Ultra-Torque lubricant.
Thats 1 option. Not happy with the idea of $21 a piece bolts that hold only 32ftlbs. Thats 10ft-lbs more than those hardware store or cam bolts. I asked if they had anything better. The reply was they could make bolts in the above diameter that could take 55ftlbs but it would be ATLEAST double the price. Next....
I asked if we could go to a 3/8ths bolt. Unfortunately 5/16th and 3/8ths overlap. LAME! Art suggested 10mm. He crunched the numbers and sure enough, 10mm cuts all new threads! YES! Art checks his inventory and found the following: Nissan 2.0L (SR20DE/DET) Flywheel Bolt Kit Kit #: 102-2803 UHL 0.925˝ Thread Size M10 x 1.00 Wrenching 5/8
You will need a 9mm hardened drill bit. A 10mm x 1.00 starting and finishing tap. I ordered these from http://www.mscdirect.com/ since no one has metric drill bits & taps in stock around here. Patience and lots of WD40.
Drill the flywheel holes 10mm.
Bolt the flywheel on with one of those stupid hardware store bolts or cam bolts.
Using the flywheel as a guide slowly drill the new hole with the 9mm bit. Use plenty of WD40 and blow out the shavings often. I wrapped black tape around the drill bit for a depth of 1".
Check often. You will see this when you are close:
You need to make sure you go deep enough to remove that ring of old threads in there.
When you punch through you will hear it. It makes a different sound and feel. This is what you want to see, a nice smooth surface:
Blow it all out, hose it down with brake cleaner.
Slowly start cutting new threads with the starting tap. Go in a few turns, and back out 1 turn. Do this till you bottom out.
Remove and blow out with compressed air.
Lubricate and switch to the bottoming tap. Run it in till you feel resistance and cut the last few threads.
Remove the tap, blow it all out, hose it down with brake cleaner.
Test fit the bolt, make sure it snugs all the way down and is flush! Art stated the surface the bolt compresses needs to be perfectly flat and clean! Make sure you do this. Art said you should also put a slight bevel on the bolt hole opening in the flywheel to give the bolt more surface area to seat against. I followed this advice. Just use a slightly bigger drill bit and give it a quick spin around each bolt hole WITHOUT drilling into them. You just want a slight beveled edge.
Insert the new bolts using ARP's intructions and torque to 70ft-lbs. I guarantee you will never deal with loose bolts again.
Wash, repeat 7 more times.
***** Note this only works with fbody flywheel. You will need bolts 1/4" longer if you use an aluminum flywheel.*******
Top bolt hole is now 10mm. All others are 5/16ths.
Looks like you might run into a problem with those two holes that are right next to the existing large hole. I would be interested in seeing a picture of the finished product (all holes drilled and tapped to 10mm).
I have 460whp/475ft-lbs which is way more than your average 3800 swap. I am up to 500 miles (way past where the other bolts have failed or backed out), I'd say its good to go. Notice the broken bolt in the test crank? Failed with less than 100 miles. Thats an ARP cam bolt BTW.
Here ya go (from above engine):
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-26-2016).]
I've been pondering options like this for my upcoming 3800 swap, Hoping to achieve 350 hp without an intercooler. Question here is, why would ARP list torque with their lube for a flywheel application? Thread locker is standard here, isn't it? And I'm awfully surprised at the cost of $20 per bolt. Seems more like the price for the whole bag.
I've been pondering options like this for my upcoming 3800 swap, Hoping to achieve 350 hp without an intercooler. Question here is, why would ARP list torque with their lube for a flywheel application? Thread locker is standard here, isn't it? And I'm awfully surprised at the cost of $20 per bolt. Seems more like the price for the whole bag.
Call Alex @ ARP and give him the p/n. Its $21 per bolt for their "custom age material" bolts. Also notice the quantity of 40. The more you buy, the cheaper they are. Only buying 8 will be more expensive per bolt.
Guys, I have been working on this issue for 8 months. I am telling you, 24 ft-lbs for hardware store & ARP cam bolts is not going to cut it on a 3800 with a manual trans. 34ft-lbs with the $21 a piece bolts isnt going to work either. 70 ft-lbs is a install it and forget it solution.
Edit, the right bolt, for the right application, with the correct TQ usually doesn't require thread lock.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-26-2016).]
Nice job ! So this kit comes with 8 bolts right ? The instructions for this kit say to use Loctite 242 on the bolt threads and the ARP lube under the bolt head. Thanks again
You do know 70ftlbs on an M10 12.9 bolt, lubricated, is about 20ftlbs past the recommended maximum torque value... right?
quote
Originally posted by Adjustso3:
Nice job ! So this kit comes with 8 bolts right ? The instructions for this kit say to use Loctite 242 on the bolt threads and the ARP lube under the bolt head. Thanks again
ARP's own instructions which you can find by clicking the link I posted above and then select kit instructions show 70ft-lbs. I think they know a few things about fasteners.
Glad you finally went this route. My 3/8 bolts are still holding up but this looks even better.
I got the idea from Scott when he told me about your twin disc. It drives me NUTS how often he is right. Funny, he is the 1st person I told about this. He said you'd like it.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: ARP's own instructions which you can find by clicking the link I posted above and then select kit instructions show 70ft-lbs. I think they know a few things about fasteners.
And yes, it includes 8 bolts. Its destiny I tell ya!
...
The instructions say lubricate the threads with Loctite 242(which is blue) and under the head with ARP lubricant. That is very different than lubricating it with arp lubricant like your OP says. I'd say update the OP because that could cause serious issues to anyone who reads it. Blue and Red threadlocker are meant to give close to dry torque values. ARP lube at 70ftlbs is putting those way past the max torque
The instructions say lubricate the threads with Loctite 242(which is blue) and under the head with ARP lubricant. That is very different than lubricating it with arp lubricant like your OP says. I'd say update the OP because that could cause serious issues to anyone who reads it. Blue and Red threadlocker are meant to give close to dry torque values. ARP lube at 70ftlbs is putting those way past the max torque
You are just being pedantic at this point. The instructions are there AND the TQ spec is 70ft-lbs. I have never used ARP lube on any surface but the bolt head. Thats common sense. Again, ARP's own instructions are posted. My thread is a guide like any other.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-27-2016).]
NO. No I am not. There is a VERY VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DRY AND LUBED TORQUE VALUES FOR EVERY SINGLE BOLT. This whole thread is about breaking phucking bolts. You wanna break a bolt, over torque it by 20% it. Which is exactly what you are telling people to do. I would venture to say that 99% of people have only lubed head bolts, which require thread and under the head,. You tell people to lube a bolt, that's what they will do. The torque value the instructions say are for a bolt with LOCTITE on it, which gives a DRY VALUE. You are wrong. End of story. I'm a machinist for christ's sake.
You even misstated the instructions once to someone else in the thread
quote Originally posted by viperine:
I've been pondering options like this for my upcoming 3800 swap, Hoping to achieve 350 hp without an intercooler. Question here is, why would ARP list torque with their lube for a flywheel application? Thread locker is standard here, isn't it? And I'm awfully surprised at the cost of $20 per bolt. Seems more like the price for the whole bag.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:
Edit, the right bolt, for the right application, with the correct TQ usually doesn't require thread lock.
That guy sure thought you meant threads.
[This message has been edited by Slammed (edited 01-27-2016).]
There is always someone on this forum that feels the need to **** on someones thread that was intended to help. You wanna whip out your e-peen, have at it. If I "misled" anyone, there is a link to the bolts AND THE DAMN INSTRUCTIONS per the people that made them.
As for the price. I have the emails for the conversation I had with Alex. I dont need you to tell me **** . I have the itemized prices for a purchase order. I know the EXACT price! IDGAF what you do for a living. Were you on the phone with ARP? Did you do the reserch? Did you get the purchase order? No? Then wave your little e-peen elsewhere.
According to the kit instructions you just put loctite 282 on the threaded portion of the bolt and then lubricate the bottom of the bolt head with the lube. Then torque in a cross cross pattern to 70 ft lbs. Just curious. Would it be better or matter if you torqued them down to a lower value first and then went to 70 ft lbs ? Or just go right for the 70 ft lbs ? I don't have metric bits or the two taps needed. Where is the best place to get them ? Thanks for all the time in research.
According to the kit instructions you just put loctite 282 on the threaded portion of the bolt and then lubricate the bottom of the bolt head with the lube. Then torque in a cross cross pattern to 70 ft lbs. Just curious. Would it be better or matter if you torqued them down to a lower value first and then went to 70 ft lbs ? Or just go right for the 70 ft lbs ? I don't have metric bits or the two taps needed. Where is the best place to get them ? Thanks for all the time in research.
Any information on using washers with aluminum flywheels?
Its all about the wrenching head size. Seriously, call ARP and you want to try and speak with Art. Alex is the guy in the specialty fasteners department and wont be much help outside of that. Everything else, Art is the man and will spend the time to help you. Like I said, we chatted for 2 hours one night. I didn't look much into the aluminum flywheel even though I have a brand new SPEC flywheel collecting dust. You will need bolts 1/4" longer if you use one. However, IIRC there isn't much room between the head of the bolt and the clutch disc. On one of my many failed attempts I tried washers and they just touched the raised stamping on the clutch disc that holds the springs in place. Made an awful racket and marred the bolt heads a bit. It would only get worse as the clutch disc wore.
As for the price of the 5/16th fasteners, Slammed was quoted for regular ol' ARP bolts and not the custom age+ bolts. You have to get them through the specialty department and they really are $21 bucks a bolt. Even Art didn't know about them.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-29-2016).]
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Guys, I have been working on this issue for 8 months. I am telling you, 24 ft-lbs for hardware store & ARP cam bolts is not going to cut it on a 3800 with a manual trans.
I've known this for a long time. The ARP SBC cam bolts and hardware store bolts were never designed for this duty. That's why I've only ever used new genuine GM (stock replacement) bolts designed and meant for this job.
That being said, I've wondered whether there is enough material in the crank of the 3800 to drill and tap these holes for bigger bolts. If you've already done it and have run a ton of power thru it with no failures, that answers the question.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-29-2016).]
If they tend to back out why not just safety wire them like real racecars do?
You could, but I'd venture to say they would then break. Not only are they not TQ'd enough, but the bolt holes in the flywheel are too large if you use a SPEC flywheel.
Sorry to bring up an old thread but did this end up holding up? Has anyone else tried this and had success?
After spending probably $150 on the gm camaro flywheel bolts over the last couple years with putting the flywheel on different engines i am sick of these TTY bolts and how difficult they are to find every time. No dealerships i have called have any and can only special order 1 pack of 5 from the warehouse. All the online GM parts sites will let me order them and then cancel the order a few days later or are still "processing" 20 days later. It looks like this is my only option right now.
This works for a stock Fiero flywheel on an LZ9 as well, I found the same bolts by calling ARP and going through what they offered. I believe these are the same size bolts as stock Fiero flywheel bolts but half a mm longer. There is no re-drilling or re-tapping required though. I also torqued them to 70ftlbs. I have not run the motor yet but can report back when I have some miles on it.
zkhennings Can you please be more specific about "this works" & you don't have to redrill the crank? What bolts are you talking about, & have you put any miles on them yet? BV MotorSports (Steve?) Thanks for going to all the trouble researching & posting this info. Much needed & appreciated.
[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 08-20-2021).]
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: You will need a 9mm hardened drill bit. A 10mm x 1.00 starting and finishing tap. I ordered these from http://www.mscdirect.com/ since no one has metric drill bits & taps in stock around here. Patience and lots of WD40.
There's no way around needing the metric taps, BUT... 9mm = 0.354 You can use either an S drill at 0.348 or a T drill at 0.358. Either one will be fine.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Drill the flywheel holes 10mm.
Drilling them on-size is a little sketch. 10mm = 0.394 Use a X drill at 0.397 or a Y drill at 0.404. I would actually go with a Y drill. That's still closer than either SAE or ISO close fits for 3/8 or 10mm.
S, T, X & Y drills are readily available from just about any hardware store.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Test fit the bolt, make sure it snugs all the way down and is flush! Art stated the surface the bolt compresses needs to be perfectly flat and clean! Make sure you do this. Art said you should also put a slight bevel on the bolt hole opening in the flywheel to give the bolt more surface area to seat against. I followed this advice. Just use a slightly bigger drill bit and give it a quick spin around each bolt hole WITHOUT drilling into them. You just want a slight beveled edge.
The bolts have a radius under the head. The bevel needs to be there to provide clearance for that radius. Damaging that radius can/will cause the bolt to fail. There is a tool called a countersink that is designed for this purpose. It's like a drill bit, but intended only to cut bevels.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Insert the new bolts using ARP's intructions and torque to 70ft-lbs. I guarantee you will never deal with loose bolts again.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Edit, the right bolt, for the right application, with the correct TQ usually doesn't require thread lock.
Yeah, not so much. As noted, dry installation is not what ARP's instructions say.
quote
Originally posted by Slammed: You do know 70ftlbs on an M10 12.9 bolt, lubricated, is about 20ftlbs past the recommended maximum torque value... right?
A class 12.9 bolt has a tensile strength of 170,000 PSI. ARP's normal flywheel bolt material has a tensile strength of 200,000 PSI.
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I have never used ARP lube on any surface but the bolt head. Thats common sense.
Uhh, no. Common practice when a bolt needs to be lubricated is to lubricate the threads as well as the head. Ever installed a connecting rod bolt? You sure don't torque those with dry threads.
Anyway, the ARP instructions definitely say to use threadlocker on the threads and ARP assembly lube under the head. The 11x1.5mm flywheel bolts I just installed get the same treatment.
There is no value to be derived from incorrect guidance.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-23-2021).]
I am new to this forum and was looking for the proper spot to ask about my issue. and found this question. I have been running the inline 6 version of the Iron Duke motor since 1963 when they came out. People have harmonic problems with 6 cylinder engines all the time since the crank is so long. My fix has been very simple , put a doll pin between each pair of bolts do not make it go through the flange this keeps the flywheel from trying to shake back and forth, between the bolts you make a tab that the bolts go through and hold the pins in place then the tab has to be long enough to bend the edges over the bolt flats so they can not back out. Has worked for me .
Like Darth mentioned, and I will ask...what's wrong using GM genuine bolts?
The heads of the GM bolts are large and may interfere with the disc on a flat cut flywheel.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
