As a matter of fact, I just started the swap this weekend. Dropped the old cradle with the LX9 and 282 out and onto jack stands. Tonight I braced the engine in position and removed the 282 without moving the engine. As a matter of curiosity, I also removed the clutch that has about 35 race hours on it and was pleasantly surprised at the condition, probably less than half worn. Stock disc and pressure plate, held up well to the 186 whp but then again it's road racing, not drag racing. The front trans mount however didn't do so well, looks like that mount would be a regular replacement item if I had stayed with the 282.
I put a spare F23 with the V6 pattern on the LX9 engine as a jig to locate the new trans mounts. If you look at my first picture in this thread you can see the stock F23 mounts. The front mount is going to be very easy, it's right above part of the cradle so will be two ears welded onto the cradle. The rear mount is only slightly more involved, it has to straddle my relocated toe link but still very easy. Once those mounts are done, I'll remove the LX9 and F23 and put the LFX and F23 in on the new trans mounts, then fab the motor mounts. This should help keep everything aligned properly but I'll of course measure to make sure. I'll take pictures once I'm done. I'll be updating the F23 trans mounts by replacing the rubber with Prothane inserts as well, still deciding what motor mounts to use.
I have some updates that I'm going to do on the cradle while it's out. I'm going to replace the lateral crossmembers with 2" x 3" rectangular steel tube, my present ones have some racing related issues (cracks) and the new tubes should be more rigid. The motor mounts are on the side of the LFX engine and will rest on those pieces.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-25-2017).]
Slow progress as I'm also upgrading the rear suspension and cradle. I weighed the LX9/282 combo as it came out of the car and it's 524 lbs, 26 lbs heavier than the LFX/F23 in the same configuration. I'd say a reasonable portion of that difference is the weight of the clutch package, the LFX has an aluminum flywheel with a six puck clutch disc.
Cradle with engine and trans reinstalled, waiting for some spare time to do the wiring and plumbing.
I used poly engine mounts (Jeep application). Front mount using stock bracket to engine (note the new front and rear crossmembers to support the side engine mounts.: Rear mount - had to make it from scratch to clear the axle:
I used the stock F23 bolt-on Cavalier brackets with poly inserts. The mounting brackets are just strap steel tabs welded to the cradle. Front:
Rear: had to straddle the present toe link bracket that may be moving so excuse the unfinished look.
Interesting. Didn't realize that you were replacing both crossmembers, though. We "welding impaired" are going to have to figure out something else. But nice work!
Did you have to do anything to the shock towers or hinge boxes to make it all fit?
Edit - Got your msg. Thanks!
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-30-2017).]
There may be a way to reinforce the stock crossmembers to handle the loads. I'm putting a fair bit of stress on them with racing so figured now would be a good time to replace them. No other mods needed to the cradle or structure of the car but I removed the hinge boxes a long time ago so there may be interference in a stock Fiero.
If this particular engine swap has interest, I might see what can be done to make a kit for the WI folks. Thanks to Joseph Upson, I had a look on car-part.com, there are 64 pages of good used LFX engines with the cheapest ones around the $400 mark. Might be just in time to take over for the SC3800s!
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 01-02-2018).]
There may be a way to reinforce the stock crossmembers to handle the loads. I'm putting a fair bit of stress on them with racing so figured now would be a good time to replace them. ...
There were actually some reinforcements being sold for the 88 cradles. The 88 cradles seem to be more fragile than the earlier ones. I haven't seen them in a while, however.
FWIW, My 4.9 has a 2" x 5" plate welded in where the front tranny mount bolts through. It otherwise uses the normal tranny mounts/locations, in addition to one under the crank pulley, and one on either side of the block, in the "front" corners. (i.e., 5 point mounting.) It uses no dog bone, and I would venture to guess that you could pick up the car by the engine and shake it until the body panels fell off, and the engine would still be solidly attached. No. I didn't do the install.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-30-2017).]
Could do a five point mounting on the LFX/F23 by adding the adding the upper front mount to right strut tower. I have the bracket on my engine at the moment, still deciding whether to use it or loose it.
There were actually some reinforcements being sold for the 88 cradles. The 88 cradles seem to be more fragile than the earlier ones. I haven't seen them in a while, however.
FWIW, My 4.9 has a 2" x 5" plate welded in where the front tranny mount bolts through. It otherwise uses the normal tranny mounts/locations, in addition to one under the crank pulley, and one on either side of the block, in the "front" corners. (i.e., 5 point mounting.) It uses no dog bone, and I would venture to guess that you could pick up the car by the engine and shake it until the body panels fell off, and the engine would still be solidly attached. No. I didn't do the install.
On my 86 I cracked the rear tranny mount pad area running without a dog bone while using the proform interlocking poly mounts found at Autozone and Advance. They held nicely but I believe a dog bone would have helped prevent that. I tried solid mounting before and didn't like it.
Made some more progress over Christmas. Coolant and fuel lines are hooked up, electronic throttle pedal installed, shifter cable brackets and arms fabbed and installed, bigger fuel cell installed, Koni struts converted to coilovers, some wiring sorted.
Here's what my F23 cable linkage looks like:
I kept the Rodney Dickman 5-speed cables that I've been using, good quality with steel ends, and modified the up-down/gate part like many others by cutting off one end and welding a tab on the other side to reverse the motion. On the fore-aft, I removed the F23 linkage assembly, drove out the pin and had a closer look. The stock arm with the weights has a rubber sleeve between it and the shifter shaft. I cut off the weights and used just the centre part of the arm. I made a steel sleeve that fits inside the centre and over the shaft with material sticking out below the centre, then cut a U-shaped arm to go around the shifter strut and welded that to the sleeve. That allowed the cable to attach about 90 degrees from the stock F23 orientation, allowing the stock cable to be used instead of the extra long custom cable that others use.
I took extra time to ensure that the cable brackets were aligned to have the least deflection and thereby the least resistance to movement. I also went through my rebuilt 4-speed shifter, removing extra pieces and again aligning the shifter cable tabs for least resistance. The result is smooth shifting with a nice positive feel, partly due to the F23 but a noticable improvement over the previous feel.
Edit: fixed! Thanks, Carbon!
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 08-31-2018).]
Originally posted by mender: There may be a way to reinforce the stock crossmembers to handle the loads. I'm putting a fair bit of stress on them with racing so figured now would be a good time to replace them. No other mods needed to the cradle or structure of the car but I removed the hinge boxes a long time ago so there may be interference in a stock Fiero.
Make sure to box in your front cradle mounting clevises on the chassis. I nearly ripped both sides out of my car due to the lateral forces generated by 275s, and many years of track days. Half of the spot welds were cracked off and I could move the mounts by hand. Seam welding will help where possible, but the best thing is to weld a plate on top of the clevises to box them in.
[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 01-05-2018).]
Make sure to box in your front cradle mounting clevises on the chassis. I nearly ripped both sides out of my car due to the lateral forces generated by 275s, and many years of track days. Half of the spot welds were cracked off and I could move the mounts by hand. Seam welding will help where possible, but the best thing is to weld a plate on top of the clevises to box them in.
Good point, and I did that when I built the car in 2013 for Chump racing. It took a very solid hit on the right side at Portland that basically tore off the right rear spindle off the car. Repaired overnight and back on track the next day, cradle didn't move. I run sticky 275s as well and had about 90 hours of track time on the car before starting this next stage of development.
Make sure to box in your front cradle mounting clevises on the chassis. I nearly ripped both sides out of my car due to the lateral forces generated by 275s, and many years of track days. Half of the spot welds were cracked off and I could move the mounts by hand. Seam welding will help where possible, but the best thing is to weld a plate on top of the clevises to box them in.
I think the mounting ears on the body are somewhat easily bendable to accomodate different cradle width tolerances.
So if you do box these clevises in, then your chassis may not be compatible with any cradle other than the one used during welding. But I guess that's better than having your cradle tear off the car.
I think the mounting ears on the body are somewhat easily bendable to accomodate different cradle width tolerances.
So if you do box these clevises in, then your chassis may not be compatible with any cradle other than the one used during welding. But I guess that's better than having your cradle tear off the car.
A partial fix to to seam weld the outer bracket to the body. Leaves the tabs movable but keeps the spot welds from getting stressed.
I think the mounting ears on the body are somewhat easily bendable to accomodate different cradle width tolerances.
So if you do box these clevises in, then your chassis may not be compatible with any cradle other than the one used during welding. But I guess that's better than having your cradle tear off the car.
I don't think that's a big deal. The cradles seem to be built pretty well. The ease with which one can do an '88 cradle swap into an early car illustrates this.
I tried to update the images of my F23 installation in a prior post but only get two little boxes instead of the images.
I went through the procedure a few times but no joy. I took the pictures with my phone then emailed them to myself and downloaded them into Paint. Downsized to 850 pixels wide then tried to use PIP to insert them.
Not sure what I did wrong.
Edit: fixed! Thanks, Carbon!
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 08-31-2018).]
No updates so far. Mainly wiring and exhaust to do at this point then it'll be time to see if it fires up and everything works. I need to find the time to work on it and it takes about an hour to get stuff out from underneath it so I can lower the hoist. Not easy when my shop is already crowded with customer projects and spring right around the corner.
I've been working on some of the smaller items like the Koni coilovers, Wilwood brakes and updated control arm bushings. Rear bumpsteer changes are in place but again need the car on the ground to check how well it worked.
sorry.. I sent this as a PM but meant to send it as a post..
Are you using the LFX ECU? Just FYI, V8Roadsters can provide an LFX ECU and harness without the dependence of a BCM, etc.. (disregard, just saw from another post that you got your ECU from Overkill)
What fuel pump are you using as from what I've been able to ascertain, the LFX ECU needs a PWM fuel pump.
marc
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 03-28-2018).]
sorry.. I sent this as a PM but meant to send it as a post..
Are you using the LFX ECU? Just FYI, V8Roadsters can provide an LFX ECU and harness without the dependence of a BCM, etc.. (disregard, just saw from another post that you got your ECU from Overkill)
What fuel pump are you using as from what I've been able to ascertain, the LFX ECU needs a PWM fuel pump.
marc
Thanks for the heads-up, I was going to run a 255 Walbro but will likely check into a proper Camaro or Impala pump.
Thanks for the heads-up, I was going to run a 255 Walbro but will likely check into a proper Camaro or Impala pump.
Unless you're okay with noisy pumps, that can't take the same abuse as a stock pump through my personal experience with a Walbro, stay away from them unless they have addressed that issue. Humming away in the tank at the back of the car is one thing, but right beneath your elbow may get old fairly quickly.
I had a Walbro in my Pontiac 6000 SEAWD back in the day. It was perceptible, but not noisy. I have one in my Formula. It makes no more noise than stock and I've run it out of gas several times without hurting it.
I had a Walbro in my Pontiac 6000 SEAWD back in the day. It was perceptible, but not noisy. I have one in my Formula. It makes no more noise than stock and I've run it out of gas several times without hurting it.
Then you probably got an anniversary pump. Mine was loud and when run down to about 2 gallons at the usual refuel stop between FL and GA where the OE style pump was always trouble free, it overheated at the filling pump and wouldn't restart the car for about a half hour and by then I had already started putting my new inline pump on the car, which I finished in the station parking lot after a cop helped me push the car into a parking space. The noise level was night and day compared to the Deatschwerks pump that replaced it which except for listening closely, I could hardly hear.
There's also the balance between exhaust noise, if your exhaust is loud relatively speaking the pump is not. The only pump I used in a Fiero that was louder than the Walbro and not by much, was a Carter pump from PepBoys back before this website existed. It used a similar metal impeller system to the Walbro and was complete garbage, one was bad at install and another blew out its O-ring seal at the top of the pump. In the decades I've done this stuff, the older I get, the more I appreciate OE comfort and noise levels along with my horsepower and torque increase. It's just a heads up for those who are sensitive to it.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 04-07-2018).]
are you still going with the redrilled aluminum cobalt SS flywheel? or did you find a different solution?
I assume you're still rolling with an upgraded fiero pressure plate and clutch (spec or clutchnet)?
Yes to the Cobalt aluminum flywheel with six puck clutch disc and upgraded pressure plate. Another solution is a redrilled 3800 flywheel, I used that for some of my mocking up.
Yes to the Cobalt aluminum flywheel with six puck clutch disc and upgraded pressure plate. Another solution is a redrilled 3800 flywheel, I used that for some of my mocking up.
The reason I'm inquiring as to all of this is that I have a cobalt ecotec FY1 optioned F23 and separate metric bellhousing with a 3.4 DOHC waiting to go in after I finish up a nearly done Mazda 6 / Ford Fusion Duratec swap.. I've been researching the LFX swap for some time now as it seems like a great swap candidate/engine choice, especially with your proof of alignment of the f23 pins.
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 04-07-2018).]
Yes to the Cobalt aluminum flywheel with six puck clutch disc and upgraded pressure plate. Another solution is a redrilled 3800 flywheel, I used that for some of my mocking up.
Mender,
If possible, could you take a rubbing of the either 3.6 HF block bolt pattern? I'd like to see how much of the ecotec housing lines up as well given that I have one sitting in the floor of my garage...
I just realized that I have an F35 from a Cobalt SS buried (literally, about 4 feet deep in product boxes that need to be recycled!) in a corner of my shop, right beside my new F40 and my aluminum block 6.0 LS. I may get close to it in about a month when I sort through my racecar spares which are also buried in there.
Ok.. got the LFX/global pattern block rubbing in to compare against the ECOtec F23 FY1 I have.. yes the dowels line up, but no other bolts line up and furthermore, the transmission has to rotate roughly 16-18degrees for the dowels to align probably bringing the diff and output shaft/axle casing probably up into the block. So it's more a less a complete no go... which points to the quad4 bellhousing as still the only viable 3.6 alloytech F23 option.
Made some more progress over Christmas. Coolant and fuel lines are hooked up, electronic throttle pedal installed, shifter cable brackets and arms fabbed and installed, bigger fuel cell installed, Koni struts converted to coilovers, some wiring sorted.
Here's what my F23 cable linkage looks like:
I kept the Rodney Dickman 5-speed cables that I've been using, good quality with steel ends, and modified the up-down/gate part like many others by cutting off one end and welding a tab on the other side to reverse the motion. On the fore-aft, I removed the F23 linkage assembly, drove out the pin and had a closer look. The stock arm with the weights has a rubber sleeve between it and the shifter shaft. I cut off the weights and used just the centre part of the arm. I made a steel sleeve that fits inside the centre and over the shaft with material sticking out below the centre, then cut a U-shaped arm to go around the shifter strut and welded that to the sleeve. That allowed the cable to attach about 90 degrees from the stock F23 orientation, allowing the stock cable to be used instead of the extra long custom cable that others use.
I took extra time to ensure that the cable brackets were aligned to have the least deflection and thereby the least resistance to movement. I also went through my rebuilt 4-speed shifter, removing extra pieces and again aligning the shifter cable tabs for least resistance. The result is smooth shifting with a nice positive feel, partly due to the F23 but a noticable improvement over the previous feel.
Thanks to Joseph Upson, I had a look on car-part.com, there are 64 pages of good used LFX engines with the cheapest ones around the $400 mark. Might be just in time to take over for the SC3800s!
No. I didn't do the install.
