Have an 87 coupe with v6, had an iron duke before. Now I’m trying to set timing, if I short a and b and set timing 10 degrees, it goes to 20 degrees when I remove the paperclip. The idle is 1500 with warm engine. Why does the ecm put another 10 degrees on the timing? If I align distributor so the rotor point at first cable and mark at 10 degrees, I have to crank 5 or 6 seconds before its starts, the engine struggle in the begin, but after a few seconds its runs ok. If I turn off engine and try to start, it fires up immediately. I can drive the car but it’s have no power. Have sprayed with start fluid in the search of vacuum leaks, but haven’t found any.
I’m pretty sure im at the right stroke, if I put a finger at the plug hole a feel a lot of are when rotor pointing at first cable.
MAT, ETS and engine gauge temp sensor are all showing around 3500 ohms. If I unplug MAP, the engine dies immediately, green cable on MAP have 2,2v when engine is running. If I put a finger over IAC hole engine dies immediately. No change if I unplug O2-sensor. No smoke coming from exhaust but I think it smells like burned oil/fuel. No codes
I also have glowing manifolds on both sides, may be a little more on the one closest to the firewall. I have changed the fuelpump during the swap, but the fuelfilter is maybe five years old, haven't been driving so much during these years. Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running. I'm not sure valve lash it correct, could wrong valve lash create my problem?
That is a high idle. Should be around 700 for pretty much every car. Also you might be a tooth out. Or even 180° off. My car was actually 180° out. It frankly ran pretty good though actually so I never messed with it.
The timing needs to be set at 10° before top dead center, with the paperclip in. Bolt it down there. Yes the ecm adds additional advance with the paperclip out, it is supposed to.
Glowing headers and a lack of power are signs you have the timing set too retarded, which is what it is if you set it 10 btdc with the clip out.
Damper has probley sliped on lower pulley When you set timing will be retarded Turn moter till you feel air coming outnumber one plug hole put small wire in plug hole and turn moter (by hand) till you feel piston start back dowm stop and turn back a smig look and see if mark on pulley is in the right place
I set my timing by ear. Advance the distributor a degree or two, each time you try it. When it starts to ping, under a heavy load, retard the distributor slightly, until it doesn't ping.
I set my 4.9's timing this way. It appears the ring had slipped, since I had an "additional" ten degrees of advance, from where the timing light said was "correct".
Finally got some time for the Fiero. Moved the rotor/dist backwards that was no good, engine not even starts. Then moved it forward from start position, but no change, glowing manifolds and high idle. Have a new egr-tube from egr to intakemanifold, tried to spray start-gas, but no idle change.
Will try tomorrow to see that i'm not 180 degress off, do the finger in sprakplug hole thing.
Im at the right stroke no doubt. Need you guys to explain something to me. When i feel the pistion is near the tdc i set mark on harmonic balancer at 10 degress, then i place rotor facing the black vaccum line at upper intake and finally place cap so rotor is a little bit before first cylinder cable the engine wont start. But if i turn cap as picture below it will start and run, maybe a bit high idle, but glowing manifolds. Why does it run when cap is in that position, that seems wrong in my book.
[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 06-08-2016).]
Originally posted by Johan: Im at the right stroke no doubt. Need you guys to explain something to me. When i feel the pistion is near the tdc i set mark on harmonic balancer at 10 degress, then i place rotor facing the black vaccum line at upper intake and finally place cap so rotor is a little bit before first cylinder cable the engine wont start. But if i turn cap as picture below it will start and run, maybe a bit high idle, but glowing manifolds. Why does it run when cap is in that position, that seems wrong in my book.
When the #1 piston is at top dead center on the compression stroke as you are setting the timing mark, the mark should be at zero degrees. I believe the ignition module applies a base advance of 10 degrees in bypass mode (grounded terminals A to B) at least that is the case in the DIS ignition system. Probably not the same for the distributor system, in which case you'll rotate the distributor counter clockwise to reach a base timing of 10 deg while the motor is running after setting the mark to 0 deg.
Cylinder #1 and 4 are at top dead center at the same time, so if you can't get the engine started after the distributor is installed and you confirm spark, the problem is likely that you have the distributor installed 180 degrees off, on #1 instead of 4, or visa-versa.
If you take cylinder #1 to top dead center and mark that point as 10 degrees on the balancer, you will effectively run the engine about 10 deg retarded as you have set 10 degrees as the top dead center mark on the balancer. When you run the engine in bypass mode following that arrangement, it will register ~10 deg via the timing light when it is physically running at the 0 deg point resulting in 10 degrees retarded and glowing exhaust manifolds.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-08-2016).]
Over the years here, I've seen so much confusion relating to setting the static timing.
First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.
The only factor restricting where the distributor can actually be positioned is the wiring harness. Obviously the connection for the ICM can't be pointed away from the coil if you expect to connect the harness etc.
Below is the 2.8 in my Formula. To do the initial static timing, I have the timing mark for cylinders #1 and #4 (the wider mark on a known good harmonic balancer) set to 0° with #1 piston on the compression stroke. If I'm installing the distributor, I drop it down so that when fully seated, the rotor is pointing at the indicated bolt on the upper intake. I then rotate the outer distributor so that the terminal I'm using as #1 (as it could be any which one you want) is lined up with the rotor. The terminal I've selected seems to work best in regards to orienting the distributor towards the coil. The engine is now timed well enough to start, and dynamic timing can now be set with a timing light (and ALDL jumper in place)... or for the old guys like me, by ear. Nothing to it.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-01-2024).]
Question - Where is the cooling tube for the coil/distributor? And why is there a non-factory heat shield installed which is actually blocking air from circulating around the coil? Compare the heat shield you've created and installed, to the heat shield on my engine in the previous post. Yes, my heat shield has been altered somewhat from stock, but it's been done in a manner to simply cut down on heat being radiated towards the coil and ICM by the EGR valve and tube. Air flow around the coil hasn't been restricted.
[EDIT] Ok, I guess you don't have any of the blower assembly in the back as this '87 Fiero originally had a duke. However, I strongly advise you to modify the heat shield you've installed. IMO, you'd be much better off with either a factory heat shield or a custom heat shield that more closely resembles the factory one.
I might also add that although the 88's (such as my Formula) don't have a rear blower for the alternator or coil/distributor, heat in the engine bay has been reduced with the factory's use of extensive wrap/insulation around the exhaust Y-pipe. I don't see any shielding whatsoever around your exhaust Y-pipe. You may find that ICM life will be greatly reduced with your present set-up.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-01-2024).]
Haven't been home much lately, wife has been to hospital, but she's finally home and today I got some Fiero-time
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[EDIT] Ok, I guess you don't have any of the blower assembly in the back as this '87 Fiero originally had a duke. However, I strongly advise you to modify the heat shield you've installed. IMO, you'd be much better off with either a factory heat shield or a custom heat shield that more closely resembles the factory one.
I will look into this, didn't get the shield when i bought the engine and made one i thought would work.
When I set timing, I put balancer at 0 degress and pistion at TDC, drop dist as picture shows below.
To get it started and run, I have to turn cap, so it looks like this:
Tried to move dist 180 degrees, but it won’t start. Did test by myself, so I’m not 100% sure, but I didn't get any intention to start, tried 3 different positions.
Why does it run when rotor passed first cable and heading to second?
Why does it run when rotor passed first cable and heading to second?
Either your harmonic balancer is not right, or the computer is still influencing the timing. Are the A and B terminals connected on the ALDL connector?
When you first turn the key on but engine is off, the "service engine soon" light should turn on, blink off for less than a second, then turn back on and stay on solid. Does it do this? The momentary blinking off behavior happens when the ECM checks that the PROM is valid and decides to actually use it. It will only happen if the key has been off for a while (not sure how long is required). It won't blink if it's already been on and you just quickly cycle it. If your ECM happens to be accessible, then you should see a difference in the behavior if you try this when the chip is removed. If all this is happening as described, then it means your SES light works, and the ECM is actually using the PROM that's plugged into it (not running in limp home mode).
After you start the engine, the light should then turn off and stay off. This means the ECM isn't setting any trouble codes.
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No codes
So I guess that's the case.
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Originally posted by Johan: The idle is 1500 with warm engine. [...] Have sprayed with start fluid in the search of vacuum leaks, but haven’t found any. [...] If I put a finger over IAC hole engine dies immediately.
Normally on an auto the idle well eventually settle to 900rpm. I looked up a manual 1987 .bin and it was 900rpm also, but I don't know if all manual chips have it set the same. In any case, 1500 is certainly abnormal when fully warm, though the stock chips will frequently idle that high during warmup. Presuming that there were a vacuum leak that pulled it from 900 up to 1500rpm, I don't know if that would represent enough of a leak to keep it from stalling when you block the IAC. I've never had the occasion to find out. But it does suggest the problem may be elsewhere.
I had a problem like this once when my IAC was incorrectly plugged in, it ran at about 1500rpm and at least in that case it eventually set a trouble code. However, if your connectors aren't broken then it should be keyed to only go one way. I think the TPS and IAC have similar connectors, but I'm not sure if it's possible to cross them up without damaged connectors.
Since this is a complete engine transplant, I'm not sure how much can be assumed about the "correctness" of anything about the harness, vacuum hoses, etc. Was this a complete intact V6 harness, or was there an opportunity for human error in the way any of the plugs were installed?
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MAT, ETS and engine gauge temp sensor are all showing around 3500 ohms.
This is consistent with just under 70F/20C. Hopefully this was with the car at such a cool temperature. By ETS are you referring to the coolant temperature sensor that speaks to the ECM (the one on the passenger side of the engine)?
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If I unplug MAP, the engine dies immediately, green cable on MAP have 2,2v when engine is running.
A couple sites about the GM MAP sensors: http://www.robietherobot.com/Storm/mapsensor.htm http://www.fastfieros.com/t...nd_how_they_work.htm 2.2v MAP at idle is shown as being 50kPa, which seems high to me, but the second site shows it as barely in range for idle. I'm at about 2400ft altitude and on the laptop/scanner I get in the mid-40s kPa at 900rpm idle, and it drops to the 30s when revved to 1500rpm with no load. So to get 50kPa at a 1500rpm idle seems a little off. Not sure this explains the car's most pressing issues though. If the MAP is reporting a higher manifold pressure than it should, it would contribute to the engine running rich. However, if the ECM is going into closed loop and the O2 sensor is working correctly then I think it ought to eventually correct for this, at least in a steady state idle. Under varying conditions it might still be rich though and driveability might still be affected.
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No change if I unplug O2-sensor. No smoke coming from exhaust but I think it smells like burned oil/fuel. No codes.
I also have glowing manifolds on both sides, may be a little more on the one closest to the firewall. I have changed the fuelpump during the swap, but the fuelfilter is maybe five years old, haven't been driving so much during these years. Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running. I'm not sure valve lash it correct, could wrong valve lash create my problem?
Fuel pressure sounds about right with engine running at low manifold pressure (idle). It should be in the low 40s with key on engine off, and drop to the high 30s at idle. If you open the throttle the fuel pressure should come up in response (it maintains a fixed differential versus manifold pressure).
Clearly something is making the exhaust super hot. Retarded ignition timing does seem like the most likely suspect, which would explain both the hot exhaust and the lack of power that you mentioned. What I've seen in scanning my car is that the stock chip typically runs a hot idle at 18 degrees BTDC with distributor base timing at 10BTDC. So the amount of additional advance you saw with the paperclip removed sounds correct - but there could be an issue where the base timing isn't actually correct. I'll leave the distributor setup discussion alone and let other people handle that.
Was in this same situation, 4cyl to 3.4L conversion, ended up with glowing headers. It was due to having the distributor off from when I pulled it to change O-rings. Finding TLD & timing got it corrected.
My new ECM has serial nr 1227170 and PROM FBA, as describe the SES light flash once and the stays on paper clip removed when turning the key. When paper clip installed I get one flash, then code 12. Tach drops to zero, Temp goes to 100 F and fuel pump runs for 2-3 seconds. The fuel pump turn on for 2-3 sec, every time I turn the key did it 7-8 times, shouldn't it hold pressure after 1 or 2 key turns?
The harness is straight from a V6 engine no cutting done.
ETS are the same as Coolant temp sensor.
I will put dist back to the right stroke and look into MAP and IAC, later this week and see if something is wrong there.
The spark comes when the prongs and points below the rotor get at/just past alignment.
With the paperclip in, the ECM adds no advance. With the paperclip out the ECM adds about 10 deg of advance. You should also be setting the timing with 10 degrees of advance with the paperclip in, resulting in about 20 deg of advance with the paperclip out. NOTE Set the advance 10 degrees before tdc with the paperclip in. The amount the ECM adds varies and won't be exactly 10 more.
The engine will not run 180 degrees out of time.
If you put the engine at TDC on #1, and align the prongs and points under the rotor and then make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 cylinder you should be close enough to start. If you do this you should be at about 0 deg timing.
If you can, look at your balancer and see if it aligns with this picture looking at the crank keyway and the tdc on the balancer - It should be just like this picture
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-20-2016).]
So much misinformation in this post where to start....
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Originally posted by IanT720:
That is a high idle. Should be around 700 for pretty much every car. Also you might be a tooth out. Or even 180° off. My car was actually 180° out. It frankly ran pretty good though actually so I never messed with it.
Idle on a V6 should be 900RPM 1000RPM with A/C on
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Originally posted by jaskispyder:
Yeah, I am guessing the distributor is one tooth off.... sounds about what happened to me when mine was that way.
You would see that with a timing light.
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Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp:
egr tube has a hole in it common problem.
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Originally posted by buddycraigg:
my vote is the EGR tube has a leak, or the HMB has slipped.
Probably right. Common issue.
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Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
When the #1 piston is at top dead center on the compression stroke as you are setting the timing mark, the mark should be at zero degrees. I believe the ignition module applies a base advance of 10 degrees in bypass mode (grounded terminals A to B) at least that is the case in the DIS ignition system. Probably not the same for the distributor system, in which case you'll rotate the distributor counter clockwise to reach a base timing of 10 deg while the motor is running after setting the mark to 0 deg.
I thought you know tunning, the 10 degs comes from the ECM code has a value of "initial spark advance" which is set for 10 degs, thus why you set it to 10 degs.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.
Correct, The stock position is pointing towards the Alternator, that bolt is pretty close.
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Originally posted by phonedawgz:
The engine will not run 180 degrees out of time.
WRONG! Yes it will run, I even have video of it running 180 out.
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Originally posted by phonedawgz:
If you can, look at your balancer and see if it aligns with this picture looking at the crank keyway and the tdc on the balancer - It should be just like this picture
A good pic to see if the balancer has slipped
Now my input, Yes your fuel pressure should hold after you turn the key off, if it doesn't either the check valve in the fuel pump is bad or a bad fuel pressure regulator, pull off the MAP vac line and smell for gas, if there is gas you regulator is bad, and leaking which will cause glowing manifolds and high idle.
Next pull off you distributor cap and try to pull up on the distributor shaft, if it moves up and down alot, well even a little like a cm it is bad and will throw off timming, or if the timming is bouncing around under the timming light it is probably the same case.
Complete different engine but related topic and interesting, I had a 69 Chevy with a 327 that drove down the road and everything with the dist 180 degrees off. There was about 25% power, but it did run and drive. Each engine can be different tho.
It is not possible for an engine to run if the spark occurs when the valves are open. If your spark is 180 deg off that is when it will happen.
Now if what you are talking about is putting the distributor in so the rotor is off x degrees and putting the spark plug wires on x degrees off, yes then the engine will run and it will run normally. The spark will occur at the correct time for each cylinder. It also is not what I would call having the timing 180 deg off since the spark is occurring when it should. As long as the spark occurs at the right time for each cylinder, the engine will be able to run.
If the spark occurs when the valves are both open (as they are at 180 deg off) the engine can't run. Sorry if people disagree with me but it simply is impossible.
As I recall the balancer look as the Picture shows, I remember that because my old balancer were totally off, so i though the one I’m using look more correct. When I find TDC without looking at balancer, I end up with big groove at 0 degrees. If I look at bolt pattern and groove on balancer it looks right, so I think the balancer is good. If I set up groove as it should be at 0 degrees and rotor at #1 prong and then crank engine, the groove pass 0 degrees mark when my timing light flash. Then I have to turn distributor so rotor is somewhere between #1 and #2 and then I can set groove at 10 degrees, guess i then have retarded timing?
I have removed the vacuum hose from regulator to MAP, there were no fuel inside and no smell of gas.
Have removed distributor and it was very little play up and down, a few mm at most.
Unfortunately one wire from my tach filter is loose so my tach doesn't work.
If the v-6 uses a timing chain, could it have jumped one tooth off from the correct position? That might explain the weird 20 degree or so mis-alignment of the rotor.
If the v-6 uses a timing chain, could it have jumped one tooth off from the correct position? That might explain the weird 20 degree or so mis-alignment of the rotor.
I don't understand the continued confusion on this topic. I thought it was sufficiently explained Here that the rotor can be pointing any which way possible when #1 piston is at TDC of its compression stroke... as long as the distributor cap has the #1 spark plug lead plugged into the appropriate terminal (and the rest of the spark plug wires follow in correct sequence).
Maybe we need to switch this around... What am I missing here? What am I failing to see that makes static ignition timing so difficult?
[EDIT] I've been thinking more about mountainman's post... If the chain had jumped a tooth, the ignition timing could still be set properly (in relation to TDC of #1 piston), but of course the valve timing would be retarded. It would be easy to tell if the valve timing was correct or not by looking at when the valves "rock" at TDC of the exhaust stroke. To prevent needing to remove a valve cover to make this observation, I wonder if both an intake and exhaust rocker of one of the rear cylinders can be observed with the oil filler cap removed?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-24-2016).]
Patrick he doesn't have the cooling tubes as is was a duke before, that problem solved.
Being that you moved the cap back and forth and the idle didn't change, I would rule out timing at this pint, set it at ten and move on.
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Originally posted by phonedawgz: Glowing headers and a lack of power are signs you have the timing set too retarded, which is what it is if you set it 10 btdc with the clip out.
The REAL reason for glowing manifolds is too lean or too rich (too rich can also be not burning all the fuel) That is where the timing comes in but a side effect not the real reason. By your post above you asked if it should hold fuel pressure after the key is off, (I can only assume by your post that it does not) yes it should, mabey drop a few psi but only a few, then hold, if it is not, that has to be addressed. It could be the fuel pump check valve or the regulator, while the pump is priming, pinch the fuel feed line(make sure to pinch it off completely) if it holds then it is the pump, if it still drains it is the regulator. This only works if you DO pinch it off completely. most of the time, if it doesn't hold pressure it is the pump.
After you solve the fuel holding pressure, if the idle is still high, then it is probably a vac leak.
BTW just FYI If you disconnect the battery, you have to drive the car over 24mph, then stop, turn the car off and back on again for the IAC to set in the ECM. Sometimes it takes a couple of times for the idle to settle out.
EDIT to add: A good distributor should only move at most 1 mm up and down.
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-24-2016).]
I will look into fuel and fuel pressure. When we checked fuel pressure at a shop, they didn’t have any adapter so he removed that little pin inside the Schrader valve and hooked up the gauge. The pressure was low after fuel pump primed for 3 seconds, don’t recall any numbers, but it was not near the pressure I had when the engine was running. I thought the low numbers had something to do with not using the right adapter and focused on pressure while running. Think I have to do the test again, why could it be low pressure at start up, bad cold start? Clogged fuel filter? Maybe have to drop tank again and take a closer look at the fuel pump and fuel lines.
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The REAL reason for glowing manifolds is too lean or too rich (too rich can also be not burning all the fuel) That is where the timing comes in but a side effect not the real reason.
If I have too lean or Rich exhaust shouldn’t i have a code from O2-sensor?
A short update. Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today after the third prime I got 10 psi and within 10 seconds the pressure were down to zero. Will try to pinch the return line this weekend to rule out regulator, return line = the smaller one?
With such low pressure could it be something else but the fuel pump?
I suppose the fuel return line could be pinched shut to rule out the regulator (unless the injectors are all stuck open). Perhaps connect the fuel pressure gauge directly to the fuel supply line.
If this pump is actually capable of putting out the fuel pressure that the specs suggest... then I suspect the "pulsator" or short length of hose in the tank is leaking or has ruptured.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-14-2016).]
We have gotten the wrongs pumps sent to us before in the mail. I think you have a wrong pump. I do agree with patrick that you could have a bad pulsator or line between the line between the pump and the metal line. But I think the pump is wrong.
10 PSI? I wouldn't think the engine would even idle much less produce enough power to drive at 10 PSI. Any chance you are doing an incorrect metric to PSI conversion?
Have an 87 coupe with v6, had an iron duke before.
Now I’m trying to set timing, if I short a and b and set timing 10 degrees, it goes to 20 degrees when I remove the paperclip.
The idle is 1500 with warm engine.
No codes.
Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running.
I'd be concentrating of finding the reason for the 1500 rpm idle and fix that first. It sounds like a serious vacuum leak causing the high idle and lean condition.
No codes - would indicate it's likely a mechanical issue (not sensors) like a broken EGR tube.
It sounds like your balancer is OK and timing is being set right.
Fuel pressure with engine running is not bad, but you may need to recheck pump and installation.
A short update. Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today after the third prime I got 10 psi and within 10 seconds the pressure were down to zero. Will try to pinch the return line this weekend to rule out regulator, return line = the smaller one?
/Johan
/Johan
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-16-2016).]
I thought it was sufficiently explained 
