quote Originally posted by theogre: This is nothing but same self-justifying junk that people used Propane and Butane for the same job. Saying they are Cheap and even safe for the environmental... code: R-# what GWP ODP R-290 Propane 3.3 <0(smog) (mean is not ODP problem but it is for Smog) R-600 Butane 4 0 "Ozone Depleting?" in your table is No for both https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants (Many other "drop in" replacements are a mix of flammable and/or nonflammable refrigerants. Get MSDS for them to see.)

Exactly, R152a is cheap and safe(r) for the environment; let's all stop to get mad that the option that helps the planet is also cheaper.
Hell, all the contenders for R12 replacement are cheap (Envirosafe which is a hydrocarbon blend IIRC, difluoroethane aka R152a, and R134a); they all cost less than a synthetic oil change.


So, you must be worried about safety- what is "acceptable" to YOU when it comes to safety?
I'm assuming the "Ogre safety threshold" is ASHRAE 34: A2L since you seem to be totally OK with R1234yf? A unique designation that only exists because of refrigerant lobbying? It only means "Yes, it is flammable, but the flame travels slightly slower while it's burning"- that's real comforting.
R152a has a higher auto-ignition temperature (454 deg C) than R1234yf (405 deg C), and the same exposure limits (both are lower toxicity with allowable OEL over 400 ppm)
The auto-ignition data suggests to me that R152a is actually harder to light off than the refrigerant in current production cars today, which means either all new cars are rolling bombs, or we're taking this concern too far.

Further alleviating my concern over a sudden fiery death is that my R152a is blended with embitterment so you can smell a leak before the LFL is reached.

OMG SO DANGEROUS GO BOOM! Here's a video of a guy burning R152a

Here's my decision tree.
My first choice from a thermodynamics perspective was CARE30 (a zeotropic blend of R290/R600a that gives properties similar to R12) but the high flammability of a hydrocarbon refrigerant was a legit concern, won't argue with you there.

The options left on the table after eliminating the HC refrigerant were R134a and R152a

So, here's why I really like R152a.....
-Lower head pressure in operation! I have AC which is at least as cold as 134, while consuming less horsepower off my accessory belt.
-Did you notice that the latent heat of vaporization is much higher than R134a? Every kg that evaporates through my evaporator takes more cabin heat with it.
-No need to make arrangements to have refrigerant evacuated (or vent R134a to atmosphere illegally) when I yank the engine.

I won't twist your arm into running the stuff- if you enjoy wearing out our rickety old compressors squeezing R134a, by all means.....

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 08-06-2017).]

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Exactly, R152a is cheap and safe(r) for the environment; let's all stop to get mad that the option that helps the planet is also cheaper. Hell, all the contenders for R12 replacement are cheap (Envirosafe which is a hydrocarbon blend IIRC, difluoroethane aka R152a, and R134a); they all cost less than a synthetic oil change. So, you must be worried about safety- what is "acceptable" to YOU when it comes to safety? I'm assuming the "Ogre safety threshold" is ASHRAE 34: A2L since you seem to be totally OK with R1234yf? A unique designation that only exists because of refrigerant lobbying? It only means "Yes, it is flammable, but the flame travels slightly slower while it's burning"- that's real comforting. R152a has a higher auto-ignition temperature (454 deg C) than R1234yf (405 deg C), and the same exposure limits (both are lower toxicity with allowable OEL over 400 ppm) The auto-ignition data suggests to me that R152a is actually harder to light off than the refrigerant in current production cars today, which means either all new cars are rolling bombs, or we're taking this concern too far. Further alleviating my concern over a sudden fiery death is that my R152a is blended with embitterment so you can smell a leak before the LFL is reached. Here's my decision tree. My first choice from a thermodynamics perspective was CARE30 (a zeotropic blend of R290/R600a that gives properties similar to R12) but the high flammability of a hydrocarbon refrigerant was a legit concern, won't argue with you there. The options left on the table after eliminating the HC refrigerant were R134a and R152a So, here's why I really like R152a..... -Lower head pressure in operation! I have AC which is at least as cold as 134, while consuming less horsepower off my accessory belt. -Did you notice that the latent heat of vaporization is much higher than R134a? Every kg that evaporates through my evaporator takes more cabin heat with it. -No need to make arrangements to have refrigerant evacuated (or vent R134a to atmosphere illegally) when I yank the engine. I won't twist your arm into running the stuff- if you enjoy wearing out our rickety old compressors squeezing R134a, by all means.....

I don't like R1234yf and I hate GM et al ramming this down everyone's throat.
They love this because they can make the same AC w/ only minor changes to make the system stronger. IOW They know it will hurt/kill people and still save Billions of $. DuPont/Honeywell loves this too because they have the only factory in China can make it to generate Billions.

You mean HR6/DA6? One is not made to have R134 and other is just fine w/ it. I forget which one likes it. (And Rebuild units may not care.) You use right O tube and adjust clutch switch and work very well.
V5 and V7 will easily handle R134. Both are still in use by GM. Won't surprise me if same units w/ R1234yf in the systems.

Smell won't matter when the R12 evaporator burst. That Can and does happen and many times while driving. I had a close friend and wife in he's car with this problem. Old R12 and still though the car was on fire because of instant fog you can't see thru. You often have no time to pull over and run. Often No time to even open a window before all refrigerant is in the cabin. Car was in the shop for days to weeks fixing damage. I had to hear both whining for weeks after because had to find other rides.

I don't care what you do. I care when BS is push as best since slice bread to others.
Insurance, Courts and many others also do not give a turd for your "logic" for this. That Cheap Safe for Environment refrigerant in a Fiero could easily Bankrupt you because Anyone even burns a finger or claim their sick when R152 and other flammables leaks out can sue you.
Safety here mean not setting up to be sued for crap mods push by others for whatever reason.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-06-2017).]

quote Originally posted by da.slyboy: Despite the fact we have several items on vehicles with the potential to explode already (gas, batteries, tires, airbags). Yes I know, all those items mentioned are made to be safe on vehicles....but a google search will bring up more cases of those hazards then the ones with modified AC.

Um, I think you will find that this is because every gasoline car ever made has all of these things and there are what several Billion or Trillion made? Statistically I think your going to find that OF COURSE there are way more cases of these things going wrong than those other standard on all cars items.

This product should satisfy those looking for EPA approved and non-flammable.
https://frosty-freezeacprod...cepted-non-flammable

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-26-2022).]

I'm getting ready to try and get my Fiero A/C going and was thinking of using that one.

I don't see what's wrong with R-134a unless you are environmentally super cautious. As was mentioned earlier you can buy a 30 lb cylinder of R-134a in the US for not much money and if it's just a one-off project cans are also not expensive. I have used R-134a with both DA6 and HR6 compressors without problems. When I have converted systems, I have just changed o-rings. In theory R-12 hoses are permeable to R-134a. However, hoses that have been in R-12 service get impreganated with mineral oil and experience has shown that they don't leak in R-134a service.

At 35 psig the boiling point of R-12 is 37.5 'F and for R-134a the boiling point is 41 'F. Adjusting the control range of the cycling switch can compensate for this small boiling point change but in my experience it is not necessary. At a typical Texas summertime condenser outlet temperature of 150 'F, the vapor pressure of R-12 is 234 psig and the vapor pressure of -134a is 263 psig. The higher high side pressure will have a small effect on compressor capacity but the Fiero compressor is plenty big enough. It will just stay on longer with a clutch cycling control system.

R-134a works just fine in a Fiero

------------------
formerly known as sanderson
1984 Quad 4
1886 SE 2.8L
1988 4.9L Cadillac
1988 3800 Supercharged

As long as R-134A is still available to the DIY'er, alternative refrigerants are a REALLY dumb idea. Especially flammable ones, and especially that R-276 for $120 for a 28oz can, if it's supposed to be a direct replacement for R-12, you'd need two cans to make up the Fiero's original 2.5lb R-12 charge. R-134A even in 2022 in the middle of summer is $15/can for Chemours (the brand DuPont spun off to take any and all potential future blame/responsibility for any future problems with R-134A), meaning a full Fiero charge of 2.1lbs is 3 cans, or $45.

I've still got 5lbs of R-12 and a 30lb cylinder of R-134A just in case...

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: As long as R-134A is still available to the DIY'er, alternative refrigerants are a REALLY dumb idea. ..

In Canada R-134A is NOT available in any store. That's the problem.
You have to get a certified A/C shop to charge your car, or even "top up" the system on a seasonal basis if needed.
Of course in that case, if R134A is leaking out, they are obligated not to charge your car before repairing your system.

ALL the stuff in DIY kits is hydrocarbon mixes of some sort, and all about the same as R152A.



https://repairheatingandcoo...-for-a-cs-in-canada/

You have to remember, OUR government is also working to shut down our Western Canada Oil industry (so we can import more oil on the East Coast...)

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-26-2022).]

Crazy, I wonder if the border patrol would bust you for trying to import a 30 lb cylinder/

quote Originally posted by sanderson231: Crazy, I wonder if the border patrol would bust you for trying to import a 30 lb cylinder/

Probably - it's illegal...

The search for alternatives by EPA since R134A is being phased out too.
https://www.vehicleservicep...efrigerants-to-r134a

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-27-2022).]

How have you guys not overthrown Trudeau yet?

Most of Canada is right on the border, apparently Calgary is a 3 hour drive. Given the expense, it's probably still worth it. Vacuum down system and check for leaks, drive to American auto parts store, rent gauge set and buy refrigerant, fill system in auto parts store parking lot, cross border again with Dudley Do-Right none the wiser.

Of course, air conditioning isn't really needed that 3 months out of the year it isn't snowing...