1-Difluoroethane, or DFE, is an organofluorine compound with the chemical formula C2H4F2. This colorless gas is used as a refrigerant, where it is often listed as R-152a (refrigerant-152a) or HFC-152a (hydrofluorocarbon-152a). As an alternative to chlorofluorocarbons, it has an ozone depletion potential of zero, a lower global warming potential (120) and a shorter atmospheric lifetime (1.4 years).
Future automotive A/C systems will likely be using R152a instead of R134a.
A couple of us have purged our systems and recharged with R152a We had already made the changes needed for R134a earlier (new O-rings etc.)
System performance is dead on according to the Factory Service Manual specs. 30 psi low side, 150 psi high side and 40F cold air coming out the vents (at corresponding temp/humidity conditions of service chart)
Not the best video, but we used these tools to evacuate and recharge our systems. (bought them on Amazon.ca for CDN$172 total - gauge set we bought is Performance Tool brand)
Yup - someone will be on here right away about flamability issues. R152a is on par (maybe safer) with another refrigerant surprisingly called Envirosafe.
"A new Directive has recently completed its progress through the European legislative process. It requires the elimination of R134a from all new models from 2011 and from all new vehicles by 2017. The currently considered alternatives are R152a with a global warming potential less than 10% of that of R134a, or the so-called ‘natural’ refrigerant R744 (carbon dioxide). R152a has thermodynamic characteristics very similar to those of R134a and will be directly usable with current compressor technology..." Source: http://delphi.com/docs/defa...974-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0
"Recent European environmental standards have called for a new Freon formulation known as R152A. The good news with this new formulation is that it can be retrofitted into an R134A system without modifications and it actually blows slightly colder air than its R134A predecessor. R152A is slightly less dense than R134A, so it can theoretically contribute to better fuel economy as well. "
Canada's "DOT" may allow this but NHTSA Only Allows R12 and R134 in all older vehicles and many new one too.
R1234yf, AKA HFO-1234yf, is only for New Vehicles Made to use it. GM and some others are using this in new cars. Some debate whether it's too flammable or will turn Acid and Toxic in a wreck or leaking out but GM and Others Does Not Care because they will get GWP/CAFE points for using this. These points mean Billions of $ each year tor the car manufacturers.
All others are Illegal in the U.S. for vehicle use and if you even ignore that, Many can be Dangerous because many are Flammable, Explosive or turn into very Acid and/or Toxic chemicals when leaked out and exposed to fire, water, etc.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
"EPA has determined that R–152a (hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-152a) is an acceptable refrigerant substitute (will now be referred to as ‘‘refrigerant’’) with use conditions for MVAC systems, as a replacement for CFC–12 in new MVAC systems. This determination applies to MVAC systems in newly manufactured vehicles only. "
"The toxicity profile of R–152a is comparable to R–12 and its most prevalent substitute, R–134a."
Granted, EPA is saying use is for "new vehicles" but R152a is compatible with our old system components and works better that R134a according to GM tests previously posted.
People can stay with whatever is in their cars - even R12 if it's still working - if they want. They can refill using Envirosafe (and the petroleum gases in it) if they want an 'environmentally friendly' alternative to the 'unsafe' R134a... They can also determine if they want to use R152a after reading all the EPA rules and regulations on the industry (that apply TO the industry).
It almost sounds as if that is what Envirosafe is using (Class 1 flammable...) I'm pretty sure they don't recommend spraying this into the air like you can with Dust-Off...
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-06-2016).]
My 84 Service Manual calls for 2.5lb (40 oz) of R12 refrigerant for a full charge. When converting to R134a, you'd need 36 oz by weight of refrigerant to do the same.
I got a full charge with about 2-1/2 cans of Dust-Off = 30 oz (each can was 12 oz net weight on label)
"Full charge" was determined by monitoring of both the low pressure and high pressure gauges with A/C system operational and filling to A/C performance specifications in the Factory Service Manual. That was: 30 psi low side, 150 psi high side and 40F cold air coming out the vents (at corresponding temp/humidity conditions listed in service chart)
If you're already converted to R134a - you may as well stay with it. If it leaked out, and you've made repairs to reseal the empty system anyway you are good to recharge with either R134a or R152a if you want to give that a try.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 08-06-2017).]
I still don't know why you need A/C in Canada. Too used to cold I guess.
As much as I hate walmart, they have 134a right now for $4.88 a can, that's cheaper than the flammable duster spray.
I still say if you are going to risk a high flammable refrigerant may as well use propane/butane (butane is needed to carry the oil as propane won't do it alone.) and works as good as R-12.
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-08-2016).]
I still don't know why you need A/C in Canada. Too used to cold I guess.
Been 75°F - 85°F since about the beginning of May or so in my neck of the woods - only the very odd time has it been below that during the day time. Sure maybe not Nevada hot during the summer, but I hate it when the igloo melts. lol
As much as I hate walmart, they have 134a right now for $4.88 a can,
Not even available at Canadian Walmarts. R134a is not available at retail in Canada. Only "certified technicians" at a shop have it because of its GWP (Global Warming Potential). That's why R134a will be phased out...
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-11-2016).]
I am somewhat embarrassed to admit after *years* of thinking about that Envirosafe stuff I finally gave it a go in my 1993 motorhome. That system uses R12 but I needed a quick, cheap fix and since the system was already questionable, Envirosafe got the green light.
Three years later it's still in there and the system works great. I don't have any other R12 systems - the Fiero, Saab, and XR4Ti have all had their AC systems removed, everything else I have is R134a - but if I did, I'd use it again.
Every quantitative test I've ever read shows that HC-based refrigerants are no more susceptible to burning than R134a in real life. Turns out the entire R134a sales pitch - won't burn, won't deplete the ozone - was grossly overstated. No surprise, it was a pitch to the US Government and I'm sure Dupont Corp. had a lot of cash to grease the system. They stood to make a lot of money with the approval. And they'll make all that money again with R1234yf. Lame.
R1234yf, AKA HFO-1234yf, is only for New Vehicles Made to use it. GM and some others are using this in new cars.
Daimler Group will not be using R1234yf. They contend it is flammable.
I'm not sure if this is their test video. It's German, and R-1234yf is the subject. It appears in a car fire, the compressed A/C gas can then be explosive when heated.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-10-2016).]
I believe that the stuff that the online hawkers sell as an R-12 replacement is called Enviro"safe" which is butane. Butane is an efficient refrigerant and works well until it ignites. There are some very nice fires in cars using butane A/C systems on YouTube. That plant hat canned "envirosafe" blew up. The side of a factory with brick walls was blown off as was the roof. That's on You Tube as well . As for R-152 is that LP gas as well???
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-09-2016).]
Yahoo! A/C system still working fine. It is blowing SO cold it can freeze you out of the car… It appears I had finally fixed ALL the leaks once and for all.
When I dropped the cradle to replace clutch/transmission, I found a cracked tube in the hose at the compressor end. Got that welded. And I replaced all the O-rings in the system with the correct ones this time.
134 has been selling at Walmart for $3.55 a can for the past month here. might be the time to stock up. Even if the 152 CAN be used in older cars, you KNOW the price will be way Up.
A 30lb cylinder of R134a costs $69.99 at my local Rural King (farm store). That equates to $1.75 per 12oz.
I've run R134a in my Fiero for years. Blows 34 deg F out the vents - verified by a thermometer. Why would I replace it?
R152a, as it boils - is easily ignitable, producing a very large blast of flame and extremely toxic gases such as hydrogen fluoride and carbonyl fluoride as combustion products. Keep in mind the refrigerant in your Fiero boils off in the evaporator core, which is inside the car with you. You can run it if you want, but I won't.
Furthermore, if you put that stuff in your car and don't tell a shop you are running it and they service your system with R134a equipment - YOU are going to be on the hook for decontaminating their servicing equipment, and paying for the disposal of their contaminated holding tank. Have fun paying that bill!
------------------ More is more. Less is not enough. Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
Not even available at Canadian Walmarts. R134a is not available at retail in Canada. Only "certified technicians" at a shop have it because of its GWP (Global Warming Potential). That's why R134a will be phased out...
It amazes me that the EPA is green flagging R152a.. I was considering propane, just because I object.. but my mechanic (works on my cars, not my Fiero) relayed a story in (Texas?) where propane was illegally sold to shops in full cans with seals on them. When cars started to explode, blowing out glass and killing people, it took a while for them to piece together the story. Now, shops have to use an R134 detector to verify that what they bought in the can is what it says on the can.. at least legally. So flammable gas in my A/C? No thanks.. and R152a is flammable? Something does not add up.
Meh... R152a is only slightly more dangerous than R134a... group A2 vs. A1. Not something I'd worry about. Pure propane vs. an HC blend is a seriously different story.
Edit: You can read this if you want to - it's fairly brief and to the point, illustrates the differences between various refrigerants:
Back in the early part of the century, there was an R12 replacement called Freezon. I don't remember the number designation of the stuff. A local garage was a distributor/converter and I had my 87 converted. It did very well, but when I eventually had the clutch replaced by RobsFieros in Tennessee, the system was drained. The local garage had gone out of business and I couldn't find the stuff anywhere so it was recharged with R12. Glad it was because when the Freezone was installed, I didn't know it had propane or butane in it. As the R12 became so expensive, it was again converted, and that was to the R134a.
I've had the pressure switches blow out of the 87 a year or so after I bought it and everything blew out on the catalytic converter. With the big boom and the cloud that came out the rear of the car, I thought it was on fire. I left the interstate for the grassy shoulder, pulled the parking brake and with the rear wheels in a full skid, bailed out just before it stopped. I was lucky that it was just the freon and oil cloud and that the converter didn't ignite the oil. So, the argument that something is 'just a little more flammable than' doesn't appeal to me. I prefer something that's 'just a little less flammable than'.
Been 75°F - 85°F since about the beginning of May or so in my neck of the woods - only the very odd time has it been below that during the day time. Sure maybe not Nevada hot during the summer, but I hate it when the igloo melts. lol
It is all what you are accustomed to.
I wish it would get that cold in the middle of the night here in Texas. When the daytime temps reach 99F and 100% humidity the Fieros get parked. None of my a/c systems are up to the challenge. New cars are marginal.
I've run R134a in my Fiero for years. Blows 34 deg F out the vents - verified by a thermometer. Why would I replace it?
when it comes to AC, I only care about the temperature change, I'm not saying you're skewing numbers, but 34F doesn't mean crap if it's only 55F outside.
again, I'm not saying you're trying to fool people, that's a feasible number, but more data is required for a true assessment of performance.
when it comes to AC, I only care about the temperature change, I'm not saying you're skewing numbers, but 34F doesn't mean crap if it's only 55F outside.
again, I'm not saying you're trying to fool people, that's a feasible number, but more data is required for a true assessment of performance.
34F on an 85F day with HVAC on Max A/C, blower on Low and driving down the highway (no need to turn the blower up higher because it is already cold inside the car).
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-09-2016).]
Whats the average price of a 134 conversion? My original r12 just stopped working this year. Probably just a tad low
If your R12 system stopped working, then it isn't just a "tad low". It is probably really low if it has any refrigerant left in the system at all.
Your question about the average price of a conversion is not something that can be easily answered. First, we need to know why your R12 charged system stopped working. Did it leak out? Did a switch fail? Did something get clogged up? Did the compressor or its clutch crap out? These are all things that need to be known. The most likely cause is a leak somewhere. And that leak needs to be found and repaired before recharging the system with either R12 or R134a.
As far as converting an R12 car over to R134a, there is a cheap way of doing it (just installing a ~$40 kit from most auto parts stores) and then there's the right way of doing it - which is more expensive because it involves flushing the system and replacing components.
The way I flush a system is to disconnect the accumulator and compressor from the system entirely, and remove the orifice tube. I then push A/C flush thru the system - following the instructions on the A/C flush bottle - then blow the system out with filtered/dried shop air. I then push a small amount of non-chlorinated brake cleaner thru the system to remove any remaining flush residue and blow a considerable amount of dried/filtered shop air for a couple of minutes thru the system to make sure nothing remains. Then I replace all the o-rings and the orifice tube. I add a certain amount (about half the system capacity) of the appropriate* A/C oil to a NEW accumulator, and then install it. If reusing the old A/C compressor, I drain it of all the old oil I can get out of it and add the appropriate* type and amount of A/C oil to it and install. Then I vacuum down the system for a minimum of 1 hour. Then charge with R134a - 90% of what the system will take in R12.
Concerning the appropriate* type of A/C oil to use - if converting an R12 system over to R134a and reusing components (like the A/C compressor) that may still have a small amount of mineral oil in them, I only use Ester oil. Ester oil is compatible with R12 and R134a refrigerants and it won't form a glue-like substance if it comes in contact with mineral oil like PAG will.
If replacing the A/C compressor and the entire system has been flushed to ensure no mineral oil residue remains in it, I'll add the appropriate amount and type of A/C system oil recommended by the compressor manufacturer (usually PAG). There are different viscosity (weights) of PAG oils so consult the manufacturer of the A/C compressor you are using for the proper type to use.
Yahoo! A/C system still working fine. It is blowing SO cold it can freeze you out of the car… It appears I had finally fixed ALL the leaks once and for all.
It's been 1 YEAR and the A/C system is working exactly as it did last year.
Originally posted by fierosound: I figured you'd jump on board. The DOT lawyer among us... I never made any reference to these chemicals since we don't have those 'new vehicles'.
"EPA has determined that R–152a (hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-152a) is an acceptable refrigerant substitute (will now be referred to as ‘‘refrigerant’’) with use conditions for MVAC systems, as a replacement for CFC–12 in new MVAC systems. This determination applies to MVAC systems in newly manufactured vehicles only. "
"The toxicity profile of R–152a is comparable to R–12 and its most prevalent substitute, R–134a."
Granted, EPA is saying use is for "new vehicles" but R152a is compatible with our old system components and works better that R134a according to GM tests previously posted.
People can stay with whatever is in their cars - even R12 if it's still working - if they want. They can refill using Envirosafe (and the petroleum gases in it) if they want an 'environmentally friendly' alternative to the 'unsafe' R134a... They can also determine if they want to use R152a after reading all the EPA rules and regulations on the industry (that apply TO the industry).
EPA approval does not = DOT legal to use. EPA lists many types on their SNAP list that are illegal for the street use from US DOT. Even EPA doesn't allow retofit for R152 on MVAC list, only New systems made for it. (R-152a is HFC-152a like R-134a=HFC-134a.)
code:
Substitute Trade Name Retrofit/New ODP GWP ASHRAE SNAP Date Use Conditions HFC-152a (N/A) N 0 124 A2 June 12, 2008 Detailed conditions apply - see Rule vs HFC-134a 134a R/N 0 1,430 A1 <snip>
(Snip part is too long for here and doesn't mean much right now but R-134 is likely to get "banned" in the US in the near future and stores won't sell it to DIY market. IOW Same "ban" happened to R12. Might be why many prices are low now.)
VIII. Final Rule Summary EPA finds R–152a acceptable with use conditions for new motor vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) systems. New R–152a systems must be designed to avoid occupant exposure to concentrations of R–152a above 3.7% in the passenger cabin free space for more than 15 seconds, even in the event of a leak. EPA requires prominent labeling of R–152a MVAC systems with a warning such as "CAUTION SYSTEM CONTAINS FLAMMABLE R–152a REFRIGERANT — TO BE SERVICED ONLY BY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL." Consistent with SAE J639 Standard, this label will be mounted in the engine compartment on a component that is not normally replaced and where it can be easily seen. This label will include refrigerant identification information and indicate that the refrigerant is flammable. Additionally, the final rule recommends additional training for MVAC service technicians and that OEMs conduct and keep on file R–152a systems FMEA to ensure that MVAC systems are safe and are designed with sufficient risk mitigation devices to ensure that occupants are not exposed to R–152a concentrations above 3.7% for more than 15 seconds in the passenger cabin free space.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-05-2017).]
Originally posted by fierosound: Daimler Group will not be using R1234yf. They contend it is flammable.
So what. GM and others are using this for new cars for reason posted above. GMC hits the road with R-1234yf 9/22/2016 www.macsw.org R1234yf is not legal for converting/retofitting R12 or R134 for "old" cars.
quote
Originally posted by fierosound: Yahoo! A/C system still working fine. It is blowing SO cold it can freeze you out of the car… It appears I had finally fixed ALL the leaks once and for all.
quote
Originally posted by fierosound: It's been 1 YEAR and the A/C system is working exactly as it did last year.
You getting away w/ illegal refrigerant mean just that. Your admitting in public can haunt you if anyone is hurt or killed. You may never get charged for a crime but Lawyer love to dig thru all post to forums, FB, etc for suing you. Say the crap May be legal in Canada to retofit, doubtful because Canada DOT rules are very close or exact as NHTSA/USDOT but say anyway... Drive that to US and your gambling w/ US Customs and other law enforcement and Lawyers that sue quoting US DOT and EPA rules.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-05-2017).]
PRODUCT NAME: R-152a OTHER NAME: Difluoroethane CLASSIFICATION: Flammable Gas, Gas under pressure, Compressed Gas SIGNAL WORD: DANGER HAZARD STATEMENT(S): Extremely flammable gas, Contains gas under pressure, may explode if heated Inhalation Vapor is heavier than air and can cause suffocation by reducing oxygen available for breathing. Inhalation of high vapor concentration may cause dizziness, disorientation, incoordination, narcosis, nausea or vomiting, leading to unconsciousness, cardiac irregularities, or death.
This is part of why EPA limits "exposure to concentrations of R–152a above 3.7% in the passenger cabin free space for more than 15 seconds, even in the event of a leak." Results can have same as CO exposure problem in Ford Cop SUV https://www.google.com/sear...ford+co+exposure+suv So far no-one died in that case but Cops are already suing Ford.
I converted my beater 87 with a V5 compressor to 152 when I bought it. Works great.
What I like is that the GWP is way lower and it's intended to be released into the atmosphere, as opposed to 134 which is illegal to release.
That, and I can buy enough to do two cars for $17 at Costco.
Butane R152, /Envirosafe will provide great cooling but is it worth having a potential bomb in your vehicle? The place that bottled that stuff had a fire and an explosion that blew the side of a brick building off. Its on You Tube
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by theogre: ... You getting away w/ illegal refrigerant mean just that. Your admitting in public can haunt you if anyone is hurt or killed. You may never get charged for a crime but Lawyer love to dig thru all post to forums, FB, etc for suing you. Say the crap May be legal in Canada to retofit, doubtful because Canada DOT rules are very close or exact as NHTSA/USDOT but say anyway... Drive that to US and your gambling w/ US Customs and other law enforcement and Lawyers that sue quoting US DOT and EPA rules.
Even ignore Legal issue... Have flammable refrigerate in a system never made to have it is never a good plan. R12 and R134a systems was design to be as cheap and light as possible and have problems because they are made such. Even new cars can have leak problems. R12/R134a evaporators alone are famous for leak problems. Water and crap in the AC/Heater Box often rots and weaken the bottom of the evaporator then leaks/burst w/o warning. Could be smaller than a pin hole or dump entire refrigerant load in seconds. You saw the fires result of crap in the blower resistor? Same or worse can happen w/ R152. Flammable Refrigerant and Smoking then you may never hear/see anything before car explodes.
R1234yf systems are heavier and design to prevent most things that killed old R12 and R134a systems. Some R1234yf systems may have valves that dump the refrigerate outside the cabin and even outside of the engine bay when SRS blows the airbags etc in a crash. These are to prevent leaking and fires cause by R1234yf, more so inside the car.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-05-2017).]
Check this out before using: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X7ddGwpqfY ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-05-2017).]
Originally posted by KurtAKX: Basically, if you care about being legal use 134; if you care about actual environmental damage use 152
This is nothing but same self-justifying junk that people used Propane and Butane for the same job. Saying they are Cheap and even safe for the environmental...
code:
R-# what GWP ODP R-290 Propane 3.3 <0(smog) (mean is not ODP problem but it is for Smog) R-600 Butane 4 0
"Ozone Depleting?" in your table is No for both https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_refrigerants (Many other "drop in" replacements are a mix of flammable and/or nonflammable refrigerants. Get MSDS for them to see.)
Butane R152, /Envirosafe will provide great cooling but is it worth having a potential bomb in your vehicle? The place that bottled that stuff had a fire and an explosion that blew the side of a brick building off. Its on You Tube
Despite the fact we have several items on vehicles with the potential to explode already (gas, batteries, tires, airbags). Yes I know, all those items mentioned are made to be safe on vehicles....but a google search will bring up more cases of those hazards then the ones with modified AC.
