Must agree with Rotrex as he has been there done that. For the fabrication work required to do a supercharged 2.8L , its would be easier to swap in a 3800SC. It a much more durable engine with superior breathing abilities, higher horsepower and very adaptable to aftermarket performance parts. As with any performance modification you have to weigh the work and cost vs the horsepower gain. Why try to reinvent the wheel when its all been worked out and done?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The manifold will get here in a week. But since a week is waaay too long to wait to work on the car, I decided to pull my upper intake off today to see what exactly I have to clear underneath there, and get the supercharger mocked up to see what I have to hack to make it fit. (The hood is getting cut almost in half.) I also finished deleting my EGR.
I dusted it off as best I could, but I live on a dirt road, so keeping the car clean is a losing battle.
The map sensor (i think), circled in red, will have to get relocated. That wont be tough, since its just stuck there on a bracket. All i have to do is run a vacuum line to wherever it ends up. All the other vacuum lines that connect to the intake manifold will have to get extended to the tree on the supercharger. Those are circled in blue. Everything else should be good if I put one inch spacers between the box and the middle manifold. That should allow for enough airflow under there too, because the intake is going to have hot air pushed through it instead of cool.
Next I made two one-inch spacers for the manifold out of some shims I had laying around. Then I put a plate on top of those, and set the supercharger on that. I stuck a 2x8 in there too, to show about how tall the box is gonna be.
That gives me a rough idea where it'll sit when its done. Like I said, the hood will be getting cut nearly in half. Almost the whole supercharger will stick out The vent over the battery is going to get trimmed a bit too to fit the pulley.
GODDAMN is it huge on there!!
Here's an idea of how far its going to stick out. Just look at the distance from the thermostat housing cap to the top of it...
This'll sure get me some looks in the McDonalds parking lot!!
------------------ I have no idea what Im doing, but Im doing it.
Must agree with Rotrex as he has been there done that. For the fabrication work required to do a supercharged 2.8L , its would be easier to swap in a 3800SC. It a much more durable engine with superior breathing abilities, higher horsepower and very adaptable to aftermarket performance parts. As with any performance modification you have to weigh the work and cost vs the horsepower gain. Why try to reinvent the wheel when its all been worked out and done?
I guess I like to be different. Idk, its something Ive always done when it comes to cars. When I built my minitruck, I couldve done an S10. Theres TONS of info out there on bagging those. But instead I bought a 95 dodge dakota, because almost nobody else had one. Learned a lot too, doing it myself.
Plus I think itll be just plain cool. Like flathead V8's. People dont build them because they're fast. if cheap performance was all we're after, we'd all have LS swaps.
Besides, when the 2.8 blows up, Ill be able to stick all this on a 3.4 and turn up the boost
------------------ I have no idea what Im doing, but Im doing it.
[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 09-08-2016).]
If I wanted to supercharge a 2.8, I would use the ford 3.8 supercharger. It is divorce mounted with simple inlet/outlet ports. Delete AC, put it down in front of engine and connect to the stock fiero intake.
If I wanted to supercharge a 2.8, I would use the ford 3.8 supercharger. It is divorce mounted with simple inlet/outlet ports. Delete AC, put it down in front of engine and connect to the stock fiero intake.
That gives me an idea for a stealth build... Forged 3.4 with fiero intake and valve covers, supercharger back down where the ac compressor is, routed up to the stock airbox... Someone should do that lol
But yeah I guess the cheap way isnt necessarily the easy way
------------------ I have no idea what Im doing, but Im doing it.
I guess I like to be different. Idk, its something Ive always done when it comes to cars. When I built my minitruck, I couldve done an S10. Theres TONS of info out there on bagging those. But instead I bought a 95 dodge dakota, because almost nobody else had one. Learned a lot too, doing it myself.
Plus I think itll be just plain cool. Like flathead V8's. People dont build them because they're fast. if cheap performance was all we're after, we'd all have LS swaps.
Besides, when the 2.8 blows up, Ill be able to stick all this on a 3.4 and turn up the boost
Over the years we have seen dozens of these special engine projects never get completed. Using a swap that has been done many times before is the way to completion and to get on the road. I doubt if you will ever see your car on the road taking this route but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. Good luck but it seems that you are trying to reinvent the wheel and for what, just to be "cool". ????
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Over the years we have seen dozens of these special engine projects never get completed. Using a swap that has been done many times before is the way to completion and to get on the road. I doubt if you will ever see your car on the road taking this route but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. Good luck but it seems that you are trying to reinvent the wheel and for what, just to be "cool". ????
Pretty much, yeah.
Also, my car isnt getting permanently dissassembled until I actually go to mount up the supercharger. Its already back together, and I drove it to school tonight. Thats why I bought the extra manifold, so I can do all the fabrication and mocking up without taking it out of action. I dont want to make any guarantees, in case I end up looking like an idiot, but Im fairly certain Ill get this one together. If not, well, the car isnt getting ripped down any further than the upper intake manifold, so Ill be able to revert it to stock.
I dont mean to come on this forum, when you were on it shortly after I got out of diapers, and act like I know everything. Thats not my intention. But at the same time, well, if everything ended up like how you said, we wouldnt be very far as a community. Would we?
Regardless. Im gonna give this a shot, and hopefully learn something in the process. If anything, this thread will be here for future me's to read and decide against trying it out lol.
Have a good night!
------------------ I have no idea what Im doing, but Im doing it.
Regardless. Im gonna give this a shot, and hopefully learn something in the process.
Unfortunately this is a common result. It's not just mechanical aptitude, but people often get discouraged when things don't turn out the way they want. To spend the amount of money, time, and effort to do something like this and then have it be less than what they expected or to be forced to start completely over does a lot of projects in. Good luck, do what you feel is best for you.
Over the years we have seen dozens of these special engine projects never get completed. Using a swap that has been done many times before is the way to completion and to get on the road. I doubt if you will ever see your car on the road taking this route but there is always the possibility that I could be wrong. Good luck but it seems that you are trying to reinvent the wheel and for what, just to be "cool". ????
This is what I like about Dennis. He may get flamed on occasion for not being a cheerleader for every "wishful thinking" project that pops up here, but it is better to give someone a reality check before they waste a bunch of time and money, than to just encourage them to dive in and never finish because the project made little sense to start with. Kind of like this one https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/000015.html
This is what I like about Dennis. He may get flamed on occasion for not being a cheerleader for every "wishful thinking" project that pops up here, but it is better to give someone a reality check before they waste a bunch of time and money, than to just encourage them to dive in and never finish because the project made little sense to start with. Kind of like this one https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/000015.html
Yeeeeeeeesh. Ive only ever seen rust that bad on my friends Ranger, which broke all four leaf spring hangars at once while he was going down the road.
Im just gonna state the difference here, again. My project is currently running and driving perfectly fine. I wont be taking it apart any further than the fuel injectors to do this mod. So, if I decide not to go forward with it, I can just put the stock bits back on over the course of an hour and have a running driving car again. His on the other hand is a total sh*tshow...
[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 09-09-2016).]
Boot Don't even listen to them they will tell you the only good engine is a 3800 SC shoot if i listen to the nay sayers i never would have built my car once and had it on the road and now i am doing it a second time with upgrades to the body and engine power
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-09-2016).]
Boot Don't even listen to them they will tell you the only good engine is a 3800 SC shoot if i listen to the nay sayers i never would have built my car once and had it on the road and now i am doing it a second time with upgrades to the body and engine power
I don't believe that anyone in the "them" category is stating that the only good engine is a 3800SC. If you browse the pages of this site there's lots of great builds and advise. There are also a number of experienced builders here, some with some great talent that have helped and guided my projects. At times it can be beneficial to take the advise of others and to learn from their experiences. I believe that any project comes down to the cost, the work in re-engineering, the investment in time but more importantly the result. Isn't that what we are discussing here?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Boot Don't even listen to them they will tell you the only good engine is a 3800 SC shoot if i listen to the nay sayers i never would have built my car once and had it on the road and now i am doing it a second time with upgrades to the body and engine power
Thanks! Yeah, Im used to people telling me this sorta thing. Most of my schemes are rather harebrained
I did ask for opinons. And you guys are giving those. So there's no reason for anyone to be mad in here... Like I said in the original post, this is being done for fun. Not to be a serious racecar.
That might be the most healthy response I've ever seen to internet criticism
With how far the snout projects passenger side how well will that line up with crank pulleys? The further out from the nose the higher the sheer force on extended pulles to match it. If you're not running a hood you can use the spacer to move it some to adjust. Any thoughts of sandwiching in a small aftercooler with a bilge pump circulating water through it in a box between the lower mani and the supercharger? One of the reasons a 2.8 is likely to frag under boost is hot air through an iron engine with lots of hot pointy bits instead of rounded runners.
And yes, you're making me think about doing something very similar on my 2.8 since I'm not going full engine swap until I'm done with the body/interior/suspension
[This message has been edited by Pancake (edited 09-09-2016).]
That might be the most healthy response I've ever seen to internet criticism
With how far the snout projects passenger side how well will that line up with crank pulleys? The further out from the nose the higher the sheer force on extended pulles to match it. If you're not running a hood you can use the spacer to move it some to adjust. Any thoughts of sandwiching in a small aftercooler with a bilge pump circulating water through it in a box between the lower mani and the supercharger? One of the reasons a 2.8 is likely to frag under boost is hot air through an iron engine with lots of hot pointy bits instead of rounded runners.
And yes, you're making me think about doing something very similar on my 2.8 since I'm not going full engine swap until I'm done with the body/interior/suspension
aftercooler huh.... I've honestly never heard of something like that, in that shape. Do you have a link? Im interested. Also, the hot air is one of the reasons Im going with the m90 over the m62. The m90's rotors are waaay bigger. It doesnt have to turn as fast, so it doesnt make as much heat. At least in theory... Thats what I read on a 3800 forum. Now with my engine it'll be turning even slower because not only is the crank pulley smaller on the 2.8, Im going to have to underdrive the blower to get it down to a safe boost level. So hopefully it doesnt decide to pull an Iron Duke on me and ventilate the block :P
Here's some number crunching I did...
displacement: 3.8 / 2.8 = 1.36 so the 3800 that the blower came from has 136% of the displacement of my 2.8
Crank pulley: 3800 = 7", 2.8 = 6.5" 6.5 / 7 = 0.93 so my crank pulley is 93% of the size of the 3800's
The 3800 makes 12psi at WOT stock. Thats 12 psi through 3.8 liters. 12psi x 136% = 16.3psi 16.3psi x 93% = 15.2psi So the blower would make about 15 psi on my engine if I kept the stock pulley. I want about half that.
The supercharger's pulley size is 3.8" stock. So I would need a pulley twice that to make a safe level of boost in my motor. There will be discrepancies because the blower is positive displacement, not a compressor, so if I port my exhaust and leave my intake stock, I'll see less pressure because the air can get out of the engine easier.
So I guess I have to find myself a 7.6" pulley for the supercharger This is going to be completely silly.
if anything, in order to keep the boost down I can further restrict my intake and open up the exhaust. Right now Im running stock up to the y pipe, and from there down its 2" pipe, no cat, a turbo muffler, and a side dump. If I go up to 2 3/4 or 3" itll probably work.
Edit: I did some looking. The m90's just got a keyed shaft that the pulley slips onto. I bet I can go on McMaster or the like and find one that fits what I need.
[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 09-09-2016).]
well there are allot of great builders on this site but i have seen some who have built cars and engine combos i don't think that are great and i think what he is doing is far less then some do i mean he is going to make a blower manifold and put the blower on it should be easier than a engine swap i all most forgot i would have gone with the ford Thunderbird SC but it is his build he can do it any way he wants
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-09-2016).]
I did ask for opinons. And you guys are giving those. So there's no reason for anyone to be mad in here... Like I said in the original post, this is being done for fun. Not to be a serious racecar.
Some people on this forum like to get really pissy when some other people ask questions and try to be helpful, rather than just cheering harebrained ideas on, when people start threads like this.
Not like this is kindergarten and we have to tell everyone how great their fingerpainting is. Props for being one who can handle meaningful discussion to hopefully lead to a better end result.
aftercooler huh.... I've honestly never heard of something like that, in that shape. Do you have a link?
The basic principle is a small air/water heat exchanger sandwiched into the intake manifold. Supercharged Jags were big into them for awhile.
Since you're talking a thick adapter plate with one inlet and 2 outlets between the S/C and the lower mani you could sandwich in something like a heater core or small oil cooler and run a water charge through it using a boat bilge pump. You also have a similar heat exchanger somewhere else and a water reservoir. What I just described is the serious hack way of doing an A/W aftercooler setup but we're after budget and fun, right?
For reference this is the crazy Jag setup. Massive overkill for what we're talking about but the same base principles
[This message has been edited by Pancake (edited 09-09-2016).]
aftercooler huh.... I've honestly never heard of something like that, in that shape. Do you have a link? Im interested. Also, the hot air is one of the reasons Im going with the m90 over the m62. The m90's rotors are waaay bigger. It doesnt have to turn as fast, so it doesnt make as much heat. At least in theory... Thats what I read on a 3800 forum. Now with my engine it'll be turning even slower because not only is the crank pulley smaller on the 2.8, Im going to have to underdrive the blower to get it down to a safe boost level. So hopefully it doesnt decide to pull an Iron Duke on me and ventilate the block :P
Here's some number crunching I did...
displacement: 3.8 / 2.8 = 1.36 so the 3800 that the blower came from has 136% of the displacement of my 2.8
Crank pulley: 3800 = 7", 2.8 = 6.5" 6.5 / 7 = 0.93 so my crank pulley is 93% of the size of the 3800's
The 3800 makes 12psi at WOT stock. Thats 12 psi through 3.8 liters. 12psi x 136% = 16.3psi 16.3psi x 93% = 15.2psi So the blower would make about 15 psi on my engine if I kept the stock pulley. I want about half that.
The supercharger's pulley size is 3.8" stock. So I would need a pulley twice that to make a safe level of boost in my motor. There will be discrepancies because the blower is positive displacement, not a compressor, so if I port my exhaust and leave my intake stock, I'll see less pressure because the air can get out of the engine easier.
So I guess I have to find myself a 7.6" pulley for the supercharger This is going to be completely silly.
if anything, in order to keep the boost down I can further restrict my intake and open up the exhaust. Right now Im running stock up to the y pipe, and from there down its 2" pipe, no cat, a turbo muffler, and a side dump. If I go up to 2 3/4 or 3" itll probably work.
Edit: I did some looking. The m90's just got a keyed shaft that the pulley slips onto. I bet I can go on McMaster or the like and find one that fits what I need.
This is the intercooler that ZZP sells for the 3800:
Your adapter plate should include a provision to allow this valve to supply air to the manifold. You can adjust the valve so that it will only close partially, to reduce the maximum amount of boost the blower can produce.
That's almost exactly the type of thing I was talking about; basically a heater core in the adapter plate. acting as a cooler between the s/c and the lower manifold
Heater core. Thats brilliant. If I made the adaptor an inch taller (i mean who cares at this point, its already completely above the hood) I could put a heater core right inside. I just did some looking and I dont know where I could find a two inch tall oil cooler, but if I could Id buy two of them and put one on each side of the manifold. That would probably be a better setup. But hey, I can get heater cores for $5 apiece at the junkyard all day long. This just might have to happen
I refreshed the page and saw Dobeys post, gahdamn thats beautiful. I can totally see how Id make one too. Just find a small heater core or oil cooler and box it in with some plate, and put it on top of the adaptor. It would be seperate, so that if the cooler fails I dont have to remake the entire adaptor.
Also! Would it be possible to run the supercharger off of the v-belt for the ac? Or would that cause a lot of slippage? I did some checking for clearance and Id have to move some wiring off to the side but thats it. Because the v belt pulley is about 1.5-2" smaller diameter than the serpentine pulley, not to mention that v belt pulleys are extremely cheap compared to serpentine pulleys.
And yeah, Ill have to do some studying up on that bypass valve... Ive got no idea how it works. Didnt even know there was one tbh.
Also! Would it be possible to run the supercharger off of the v-belt for the ac? Or would that cause a lot of slippage?
A supercharger pulls a lot more mechanical power than the AC compressor; if you look at most supercharger belts they're 1"+ wide (for surface area load reasons). With a normal(ish) sized pulley I'd bet you would get a lot of slip. Now you talk torque physics and pulley sizes a much larger snout pulley would allow a smaller belt (and lower rotation speed) but that comes back making sure you've got it turning fast enough to generate enough positive pressure to be worth it; thinks how a multi speed bicycle works for pedal effort vs torque at the rear wheel. A M90 is oversized for a 2.8 but if you overdrive it too much/spin it to slow it won't even make back the 10-15 hp it takes to drive it.
Might I also add this thread REALLY isn't helping my hack project compulsion Just walk away from the garage, self, you've got too many projects already
[This message has been edited by Pancake (edited 09-09-2016).]
A supercharger pulls a lot more mechanical power than the AC compressor; if you look at most supercharger belts they're 1"+ wide (for surface area load reasons). With a normal(ish) sized pulley I'd bet you would get a lot of slip. Now you talk torque physics and pulley sizes a much larger snout pulley would allow a smaller belt (and lower rotation speed) but that comes back making sure you've got it turning fast enough to generate enough positive pressure to be worth it; thinks how a multi speed bicycle works for pedal effort vs torque at the rear wheel. A M90 is oversized for a 2.8 but if you overdrive it too much/spin it to slow it won't even make back the 10-15 hp it takes to drive it.
Might I also add this thread REALLY isn't helping my hack project compulsion Just walk away from the garage, self, you've got too many projects already
My reasoning was that the supercharger pulley would have to be about 5.5" in diameter with the size of the crank pulley and the amount of boost I want to have, but after doing some Googling the v belt couldnt reliably hold that much power. It would have a very short life with how tight it would have to be
And that brings me back to having to find a 7 inch pulley for my blower. Will I have a chance of getting that from the junkyard? Even if it doesnt have the right hub I can probably make it work with the lathe
[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 09-09-2016).]
Edit to add more thoughts: Ok, so if you think you'll overboost on the 3800 crank pully, can you use two 3800 crank pulleys? This would give you a 1:1 ratio. As far as keyways, since you mention you have access to a lathe, here is a neat way to cut a keyway. Use the lathe as a shaper. So lock the part in the chuck, install the cutting tool in the toolpost, and then move the carriage back and forth to make your cuts. Between passes, move the cross-slide; this will determine your depth of cut.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-10-2016).]
similar concept used on a 3500 instead of a 2.8. the 3500 intake should sit a little bit lower than the 2.8, so you get the idea of what you're looking at.
Personally, I think this is a poor idea, it adds weight to the engine up high, and complicates belt routing to make it work, and all for maybe 180 hp if you're lucky, and that's also assuming the 2.8 can hold it. if I were to do something like this, I would try to remote mount the charger like fieroguru suggested.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I figure I should put up a pic of the car this is all happening to.
Its an '87 SE, v6 (duh), automatic. Had 72k when I got it, now its got 76. No power anything, but it has ac and rear defrost. No rust to speak of. It was originally gold, but it sat outside in the sun for so long it turned silver I like to say its 'two tone'. Overall its a good car. Its just a little normal looking.... Needs something sticking out of the hood.
[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 09-11-2016).]
My original choice for my Ferrari kit was a Buick GN turbo 3.8. There was a Fiero shop years ago that did those swaps but they quit. The shop that built my race engines suggested a Z24 3.1, so thats what I dug up. They built it up and put a DS1 turbo kit on it and I was very pleased.
The vent over the battery is going to get trimmed a bit too to fit the pulley.
