I started this whole adventure digging deeper into my precious Fiero than I was comfortable with because it needed a new clutch (disc exploded), but that is in another thread (here). Well, I also needed to do a number of other things, that took me a better part of a year (yeah, I'm not the fastest on getting stuff done, but I am tenacious), and I am starting to come to grips with what is left. I have to get a broken exhaust bolt out, and the front exhaust header welded. I think the exhaust bolt is going to be my most difficult thing I have done so far, so I got Rodney's drill jig. This is making things easier, as I REALLY don't want to remove the engine from the car, as I am way...way past my comfort zone the way it is (I have the engine tilted back right now, so there is room to work on it). I have tried the extractor that came with the kit, and another one I bought, and the damn bolt is proving to be one tough SOB.
Both of them ended up with the teeth or edges of the extractor worn off, and the bolt is still just sitting there staring at me . Don't know what to do about this one.
I took the exhaust header to a local welding shop that could weld stainless steel, and they did weld it for me, but I think the foot by the weld...
seems like it might have caused the foot to slant a little. I can see the tilt if I put it on a flat table... I see a slight gap on one side...
Do you think this will cause problems? I told the welder that it would have to be tied down, but he made it sound like it wouldn't be a problem. I should have insisted.
Thoughts?
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 11-14-2016).]
can you go up one size in the drill bit? I had this happen and I just pulled the heads. It wasn't that bad and the shop handled the issue of the broken bolts.
As for the manifold, have it milled flat by a machine shop.
The flanges should've all been bolted down to a flat surface when the welding was done.
All is not lost though. My buddy uses a large belt sander to line up/level the faces of the three exhaust port flanges. This unorthodox method seems to work just fine.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-14-2016).]
You could also opt to use VW Bug exhaust gaskets and check to see if they offer them in varying thicknesses. This will eliminate the strap that the OE exhaust gasket has and may be trickier to install for that reason, but may offer peace of mind.
I have to get a broken exhaust bolt out... I got Rodney's drill jig. I have tried the extractor that came with the kit, and another one I bought, and the damn bolt is proving to be one tough SOB.
Both of them ended up with the teeth or edges of the extractor worn off, and the bolt is still just sitting there staring at me . Don't know what to do about this one.
I went through exactly what you're going through. It was a freakin' b!tch of a job. IMO, you should've followed my earlier advice...
If you can get someone with a portable welder to come over and weld a nut onto what's protruding (and then turn it out with a wrench), you might be able to save yourself a LOT of work.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-14-2016).]
can you go up one size in the drill bit? I had this happen and I just pulled the heads. It wasn't that bad and the shop handled the issue of the broken bolts.
I think I can go up one size, but then there would be little or nothing for the extractor to bite on (wall of the bolt left). If I remove the head, what other potential nightmares am I opening myself up to? Seems like you will need to remove the entire intake manifold before the head could be removed. All the issues that came up during the goal of getting at the clutch damn near having me barking at the moon already. Any more, and I think there might be a padded room with my name on the door.
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:
As for the manifold, have it milled flat by a machine shop.
I took the exhaust headers back the welding shop. I talked to the owner, and he said they will fix their mistake. If he can't get the flange to lay flat with the others, then I will have someone mill them flat for me.
Id be tempted to hammer a torx socket down in there in hopes the star edges bite to remove it. Maybe no room to hammer...
This was very close to the other extractor I had tried.
It hammered in okay, nice and tight, but the extractor teeth just wore right off when I tried to turn it. I heard the bold snap once or twice when I used this extractor, like it moved, but it is still stuck in there. I think it also may have moved once (heard a snap, like the bolt turned just a tiny bit) when I tried the extractor that came with Rodney's kit.
Sometimes on broken bolts you need to drill it to the point there is barely a shell left, then use a small screwdriver or a pick to get out the threads.
You can always repair the threads with a helicoil.
As far as the flanges not being straight, almost none of them are. I have to sand flat almost everyone I take off.
[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 11-15-2016).]
I swear they used to make an extractor that had a little"cam" on it that would swing out when you turned it so it basically expanded as you turned it. But I cant seem to even find them online. Maybe they would just bust too.
I went through exactly what you're going through. It was a freakin' b!tch of a job. IMO, you should've followed my earlier advice...
Yeah... but I didn't and now I am left with where I am. I do have one person with a portable welder that could do the job, but I am thinking the engine would have to be out of the car for that to be done, unless I am mistaken. I don't know what causes me more stress at this point... taking the engine out the rest of the way, or pulling the head. Taking the motor out would require disconnecting the coolant lines, fuel lines, passenger side suspension, and the wiring harness. Then I would need to get the car high enough to scoot the engine out the bottom. Whereas pulling the head would require removing the intake manifold and all those vacuum lines and wires look like a large potential for something else to go wrong. Like another broken bolt.
But I do have enough room to get in there with a standard cordless drill, so I think a welding handle should fit. There is also taking the larger bit that is in Rodney's kit, and drill the bolt out completely. But this scares me as well, because if the jig is off just a little, I could end up drilling into the threads in the head.
I swear they used to make an extractor that had a little"cam" on it that would swing out when you turned it so it basically expanded as you turned it. But I cant seem to even find them online. Maybe they would just bust too.
I am getting to the point where I would pay real money to have someone just come out and get the damn bolt out of there. But I am afraid that most people would not be swayed by the meager amounts I could offer.
Besides, that means that I would miss the joy of doing it myself.
[This message has been edited by computer_engineer (edited 11-15-2016).]
Go little bigger bit til you are almost thru the thin side, then use a pick of some sort, a chisel , and a hammer and run it down that taper on top the hole and try and cave the bolt remains in from the thick side? Id think it would bust it loose. Also keep hitting with PB plaster or another penetrant. Unless this car has to be on the road in a day or two just take your time.
Pulling the head(s) is not that big of a deal. Just mark the wires, take photos and work from there. You don't have to mess with the rockers, if you buy a tool. It really isn't that bad.
Otherwise, just work at it with a larger drill bit.
Originally posted by computer_engineer: I have tried the extractor that came with the kit, and another one I bought, and the damn bolt is proving to be one tough SOB.
Both of them ended up with the teeth or edges of the extractor worn off, and the bolt is still just sitting there staring at me . Don't know what to do about this one.
Thoughts?
It does not look like you drilled all the way thru the broken bolt. I would use the same size drill bit (a CCW bit if you can find one) you started with and continue drilling all the way thru the shank. You can gauge the depth by measuring one of the other bolt holes. Put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit to mark that depth so you don't go too far and drill into the head.
Once you get all the way thru, squirt some penetrating oil into the hole and let it sit at least overnight. PB Blaster and Kroil are pretty good, WD40 not so great but better than nothing. Another trick is to heat the bolt with a hand held propane torch until it is hot enough to melt a birthday cake candle. The wax will wick into the threads.
Then use your extractor tool on it. Whatever you do, DO NOT hammer one of those splined extractors into the broken bolt. All that does is make the bolt tighter because you are expanding it outward. I like to use an extractor that has the reverse spiral threads. I use Vice Grips to grab the extractor, try to get a bite on the bolt and put some torque on it. Then tap the top of the extractor with a hammer. Just light taps, not playing whack a mole. If it doesn't just come right out, sometimes the shock breaks it free. Once it turns, spray more penetrating oil and work it back and forth a few times.
I went through exactly what you're going through. It was a freakin' b!tch of a job.
Somewhere here I have a lovely picture of the torx bit broken off in the hole.
I'm kind of surprised that I can't find any posts of mine in the forum which show the absolute horror I went through dealing with my broken exhaust manifold bolt. Perhaps it's because this job spread out over the course of a year (I wasn't using this particular Fiero)... and I instead was posting about the Fieros I was actually driving. Anyway, this is probably a good place to show some images as it's exactly the same situation as computer_engineer finds himself in.
This is the engine/cradle tilted down in my '86 GT to give me some room to work. Yes, there's A/C in this car... and yes, the exhaust manifold bolt that was broken off was right by the A/C.
This is the jig in place, and that's the right-angle drill adapter gizmo I used.
This is initially confusing to look at, but I'm looking down onto the front head and holding a round mirror to show the broken off torx bit stuck in the drilled manifold bolt. This was one of my worst days ever (in 20 years) of Fiero ownership! The red arrow is showing where I had to drill through the top of the head to gain access BEHIND the broken off torx bit. This allowed me to push it out... as I couldn't drill through the damn hard metal of the torx bit itself. What a helluva job!
And this is the recovered broken torx bit to show how much had snapped off. Never ever use a torx bit in this manner. Learn from my mistake!
I eventually drilled out most of the broken manifold bolt, and then cleaned up the remainder (which was stuck in the threads of the head) with a tap.
And now you know why I strongly suggest that a nut be welded onto the broken exhaust manifold bolt. Would've saved me an incredible amount of frustration and effort.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-15-2016).]
And this is the recovered broken torx bit to show how much had snapped off. Never ever use a torx bit in this manner. Learn from my mistake!
Yeah but I've broken torx off using them on proper torx head bolts. I've twisted them too. twist if you get the cheap ones , break if you get decent ones. Actually while the torx was broke off iin there I might have used a punch or chisel to try and turn it counter clockwise.
Then why the heck would you even suggest Here trying to use a torx bit to extract a stuck and broken bolt? That makes no sense at all
Well, they arent supposed to break. Had you ever broken a torx before trying it? Having already drilled it out it shouldn’t take an insane amount of torque to remove the remains, it just takes something that will bite. Keeping the torx straight would reduce risk of breakage. Also as I said if it did break Id use a chisel to use the torx head to try and turn the bolt remains out.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 11-16-2016).]
It does not look like you drilled all the way thru the broken bolt. I would use the same size drill bit (a CCW bit if you can find one) you started with and continue drilling all the way thru the shank. You can gauge the depth by measuring one of the other bolt holes. Put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit to mark that depth so you don't go too far and drill into the head.
I will try that. I am going to have to do it anyway, as drilling it out is probably the only this one will come out of there. Might as well make a clean hole all the way through it and try another extractor.
quote
Originally posted by Formula350: Once you get all the way thru, squirt some penetrating oil into the hole and let it sit at least overnight. PB Blaster and Kroil are pretty good, WD40 not so great but better than nothing. Another trick is to heat the bolt with a hand held propane torch until it is hot enough to melt a birthday cake candle. The wax will wick into the threads.
I have heard of this trick - can't hurt to try that before I go to the trouble of drilling it all the way out.
quote
Originally posted by Formula350: Then use your extractor tool on it. Whatever you do, DO NOT hammer one of those splined extractors into the broken bolt. All that does is make the bolt tighter because you are expanding it outward. I like to use an extractor that has the reverse spiral threads. I use Vice Grips to grab the extractor, try to get a bite on the bolt and put some torque on it. Then tap the top of the extractor with a hammer. Just light taps, not playing whack a mole. If it doesn't just come right out, sometimes the shock breaks it free. Once it turns, spray more penetrating oil and work it back and forth a few times.
Don't give up. Good luck.
Do you have any pictures of the extractor you recommend? It seems like no matter what, there is some outward force being put on that bolt, otherwise there is no way it can grab the bolt and turn it out. The splined ones seemed to make sense to me (but I am not sold on them now, so much), since that outward force is spread over the length of the bolt, whereas the tapered ones seem like they focus the outward force over a fraction of that distance.
Originally posted by Patrick: And now you know why I strongly suggest that a nut be welded onto the broken exhaust manifold bolt. Would've saved me an incredible amount of frustration and effort.
Quite a lesson that was learned there. When I first raised this issue in my other postings, I got a variety of responses on what to do. I think my "Go-To" response will be to weld a nut on it...now. I might take some welding classes, or just buy a HF MIG welder and practice a bunch. At least get good enough before I start welding anything around that engine block.
I would fill the drilled hole in the broken off bolt with weld. Once you get it filled up, then lay a couple of tacks to the top to build it up some, then set a 3/8" nut over the top and fill it with weld. Tap it a few times with a hammer while it cools, then after a minute or two gently try turning the nut off.
I'm now warning others not to try this. It's a terrible idea to use a torx bit as some sort of extraction tool. When the torx bit snaps off in the hole, it makes a bad situation 10x worse. The torx bit is as hard as glass and near impossible to drill out. I used brand new carbide drill bits and made no progress whatsoever. Remember, it's a very awkward place to be working. It's very difficult to get much force behind the drill.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Having already drilled it out it shouldn’t take an insane amount of torque to remove the remains, it just takes something that will bite. Keeping the torx straight would reduce risk of breakage.
I had a socket and a 1/4" drive ratchet on the torx bit. I had no problem keeping everything "straight". With very little pressure, the torx bit twisted (which I mistakenly thought was the bolt turning)... and then it snapped.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
Also as I said if it did break Id use a chisel to use the torx head to try and turn the bolt remains out.
I'm sorry, but that's a totally unrealistic expectation in this situation. Even if the head was sitting in front of you on a workbench, I doubt that using a "chisel" would've accomplished anything. And with the head still on the block in the engine bay... forget about it!
In the 45 years that I've owned and worked on my own vehicles, this was by far the worse experience I've ever had. I'm just trying to save someone else the grief that I went through.
I would fill the drilled hole in the broken off bolt with weld. Once you get it filled up, then lay a couple of tacks to the top to build it up some, then set a 3/8" nut over the top and fill it with weld. Tap it a few times with a hammer while it cools, then after a minute or two gently try turning the nut off.
Do you have any pictures of the extractor you recommend? It seems like no matter what, there is some outward force being put on that bolt, otherwise there is no way it can grab the bolt and turn it out. The splined ones seemed to make sense to me (but I am not sold on them now, so much), since that outward force is spread over the length of the bolt, whereas the tapered ones seem like they focus the outward force over a fraction of that distance.
Again, use plenty of penetrating oil first. And if you have a propane torch, heat up the head around the screw real good, then spray just the screw with the penetrating oil. Thermal shock it a few times.
Try to get the extractor to 'bite' with just hand pressure. Once you can put some torque on it, then tap with the hammer.
You have to drill all the way through the bolt, with the oil behind it, (if you can) then hit it with a torch a few times squirting oil in after/during every heat cycle and try that, if not, go a bigger drill bit size, try that, if not go up size and so on.... Looking at your pic, you need to go bigger(and all the way through) Drill until you get it out or you touching the threads in the head, sometimes the shell is so thin at that point you can fold it in half and pull it out. By the time I usually get them out they are just a shell.
Also try to use a tap handle for the extractors (if you have room) it keeps them straight and less chance of breaking.
Now for broken off bits, I was working on a Fiero, back head broken bolt. I have the jig too. I ended up with I think, like, 3 broken drill bits(2 left handed), and 2 broken extractors. After all of that, Then I decided to drop the cradle.
BUT I have some tricks for broken off bits. Broken drill bit: try to grab with needle nose pliers and untwist it out, or a punch to do the same. Broken twist in extractor: same as above, but will prob need the punch. Broken straight in extractor(torx bit ): Try what 2.5 said and see if the bolt will move with the punch and a hammer, if not, here is the GOOD trick I came up with. Get the punch on the side of the broken bit and hit it like a man, the point here is that with the super hard metal of bits they will shatter, pull out the chunks of bit and keep doing it until the bit is out.
Broken straight in extractor (torx bit ): ...see if the bolt will move with the punch and a hammer... Get the punch on the side of the broken bit and hit it like a man...
Sounds so macho.... but with the heads on the engine and the cradle tilted down, there is NO room to try something like that while working on the front head. Seriously, there was no freakin' way with my predicament that there was room enough for a punch/chisel and swinging a hammer to "hit it like a man".
Use the torch, get that stud red hot, then extract.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Again, use plenty of penetrating oil first. And if you have a propane torch, heat up the head around the screw real good, then spray just the screw with the penetrating oil. Thermal shock it a few times.
Try to get the extractor to 'bite' with just hand pressure. Once you can put some torque on it, then tap with the hammer.
If I choose to try the extractor method of removing this bolt using the reverse spiral extractor you mentioned above, then what size do I get? I am assuming that since I already have a 5/32 inch hole in the bolt, that I will need the 5/32" extractor??? Seems obvious, but things are not always as straight forward as they seem.
Welding is a sure fire way to do it, if you can weld and have a welder, or pay a good welder.
I guess that is the real question then. If I can get a good welder to my place to do the work, then this becomes a no-brainer. I was playing with the idea of just purchasing a cheap MIG welder at Harbor Freight, practice some, and then do it myself, but I think that might be a recipe for disaster.
I may have some leverage with the welding shop I took my header to, since they screwed it up, they may feel bad enough, that they may give me a good price in coming out and doing the work at a decent price. But that assumes that they aren't pissed at me for having to fix their own mistake, as weird as that may sound. I will give them a call on Monday and see how the header is doing, and then ask if they would be interested in doing some on-site work for me, and if so, how much it would cost.
If that doesn't pan out, I can always fall back on using a different style extractor recommended by Formula350. As long as I am careful not to break it off in the hole, I should be able to just drill it out all the way, and then clear the threads.
You have to drill all the way through the bolt, with the oil behind it, (if you can) then hit it with a torch a few times squirting oil in after/during every heat cycle and try that, if not, go a bigger drill bit size, try that, if not go up size and so on.... Looking at your pic, you need to go bigger(and all the way through) Drill until you get it out or you touching the threads in the head, sometimes the shell is so thin at that point you can fold it in half and pull it out. By the time I usually get them out they are just a shell.
Also try to use a tap handle for the extractors (if you have room) it keeps them straight and less chance of breaking.
Now for broken off bits, I was working on a Fiero, back head broken bolt. I have the jig too. I ended up with I think, like, 3 broken drill bits(2 left handed), and 2 broken extractors. After all of that, Then I decided to drop the cradle.
BUT I have some tricks for broken off bits. Broken drill bit: try to grab with needle nose pliers and untwist it out, or a punch to do the same. Broken twist in extractor: same as above, but will prob need the punch. Broken straight in extractor(torx bit ): Try what 2.5 said and see if the bolt will move with the punch and a hammer, if not, here is the GOOD trick I came up with. Get the punch on the side of the broken bit and hit it like a man, the point here is that with the super hard metal of bits they will shatter, pull out the chunks of bit and keep doing it until the bit is out.
Thanks for all the recommendations, and the good advice. I am hoping for the best, but it is nice to know what to do if the "worst" strikes.
Once I get this damn broken bolt out (I will get it out, one way or another), I am going to use anti-seize on the threads for the studs I am putting in and the nuts that will be holding on the headers. Do I have this right? Should I be looking for a LocTite type thread treatment? LocTite and others like it, seems to be NOT what I would want in these situations. Anti-Seize makes more sense. LocTite seems more like a glue.
In general, what kinds of things need anti-seize, and what things should have LocTite on them?
Personally, I would NOT use LocTite on suspension fasteners. With all the potential corrosion that can take place under the car, I use anti-seize on those parts as well.
Disregarding engine internals, I only use LocTite on flywheel and pressure plate bolts, and I put anti-seize on everything else. But I'm not a professional mechanic... so others may or may not agree.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-29-2016).]
I used studs instead of bolts (stainless nuts and lock washers). I believe you can use exhaust studs from a '96 Saturn SC2. Rodney Dickman used to sell them also.
Reminder when using anti seize and torqueing bolts and nuts. Take into account the torque specs you are referenceing, if they are dry, lubed (usually with light oil or thread sealant), torque specs should be reduced for anti seize.
I have gotten myself in deep... I got the snap-on multispline extractor, and tried it.
Damn thing snapped off in the broken bolt.
So, what are my options now? I know it can't be drilled out, since they are really hard metal. I don't think I can get a punch or anything in there to "shatter" what's there, as the hole is only 3/16 inch wide, and I don't think I could get enough swing on a hammer to hit it with the necessary force. But I do have a 5 lb mini sledge hammer . I think the extractor might have turned the bolt some, as it seems there is more sticking out above the plane of the exhaust port. But I don't think there is enough sticking out to get a chisel on to turn it.
Is it too late to have someone weld a nut to it? Will the extractor sitting in there make the weld weaker? Or is it time to dive deeper yet into the car's engine and yank the head otf and then just take it to a machine shop? What nightmares am I getting myself into if I go down that road? I am assuming that the intake will need to come off - both halves. This is way more than I am comfortable with. What have I gotten myself into?
Originally posted by computer_engineer: Is it too late to have someone weld a nut to it?
Nope. You want to build up the center of the snapped off bolt with some really hot tacks, then center a 3/8" nut over your built up section and fill the hole in the nut. While the nut is red hot, tap the end of it with a hammer several times. Then when the nut cools down to about 100 degrees gently work the nut loose.
If the welded nut snaps off, do the process again, and again if needed. With the excessive heat this process puts into the broken off bolt, it normally breaks free on the first attempt with significant ease.
I have never been a fan of bolt extractors, as 90% of the time you end up with the mess you are in...
If ever feel the masochistic urge to remove my exhaust manifolds, and all I had access to was a drill, drill bits, and screw extractors I would just drill the bolt out completely and Helicoil it! Drilling the bolt out takes a little while, but no where near as long as trying to drill out an extractor broken inside one Just did exactly this on my broken crossover pipe to cat converter bolt.
. Don't know what to do about this one.
The red arrow is showing where I had to drill through the top of the head to gain access BEHIND the broken off torx bit. This allowed me to push it out... as I couldn't drill through the damn hard metal of the torx bit itself. What a helluva job! 
That makes no sense at all.
When I first raised this issue in my other postings, I got a variety of responses on what to do. I think my "Go-To" response will be to weld a nut on it...now. I might take some welding classes, or just buy a HF MIG welder and practice a bunch. At least get good enough before I start welding anything around that engine block. 
): Try what 2.5 said and see if the bolt will move with the punch and a hammer, if not, here is the GOOD trick I came up with. Get the punch on the side of the broken bit and hit it like a man, the point here is that with the super hard metal of bits they will shatter, pull out the chunks of bit and keep doing it until the bit is out.
. I think the extractor might have turned the bolt some, as it seems there is more sticking out above the plane of the exhaust port. But I don't think there is enough sticking out to get a chisel on to turn it. 
Just did exactly this on my broken crossover pipe to cat converter bolt.
