While I do realize that Transverse engines are for FWD and that Longitudinal is for RWD. I also realize that Fieros are RWD, but use FWD components as they are transverse mounted. What I don't understand is what is different about transverse oriented engines. I know some longitudinal mount engines have been swapped into Fieros. I have seen some L engines that I felt like would work well in a Fiero, but I have no experience with this. Could you all tell me what all differences I would be dealing with?
------------------ To realize a dream, one must first dream it!
Longitudinal engines have been swapped into Fieros most often using a SBC engine with a TH325 and TH425 auto transaxle that was used in the Oldsmobile Toronado. Its a large heavy setup and not an easy swap but the drivetrain is very strong. What I dislike about is most is that the entire trunk must be cut away to install the powertrain. Never cared much for this setup.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
In theory, a longetudal engine will exhibit torque twist to one side because of the directional rotation of the engine, where a transverse engine wild not. Whether this translates to a real world difference is debatable. Daryl.
While I do realize that Transverse engines are for FWD and that Longitudinal is for RWD. I also realize that Fieros are RWD, but use FWD components as they are transverse mounted. What I don't understand is what is different about transverse oriented engines. I know some longitudinal mount engines have been swapped into Fieros. I have seen some L engines that I felt like would work well in a Fiero, but I have no experience with this. Could you all tell me what all differences I would be dealing with?
transaxles for longitudinal engines are extremely limited, and that's the limiting factor. The front of the engine bay to the axle is also a rather short distance, and cutting into it doesn't buy you a whole lot because the wall isn't very thick and there's nothing at all behind the seats.
In theory, a longetudal engine will exhibit torque twist to one side because of the directional rotation of the engine, where a transverse engine wild not. Whether this translates to a real world difference is debatable. Daryl.
A longtitudinal engine bolted directly to a transaxle doesn't twist the entire frame like an old-school front engine, live rear axle (Hotchkiss-style) setup.
quote
Originally posted by Travis D:
transaxles for longitudinal engines are extremely limited, and that's the limiting factor. The front of the engine bay to the axle is also a rather short distance, and cutting into it doesn't buy you a whole lot because the wall isn't very thick and there's nothing at all behind the seats.
Longitudinal transaxles are not that limited... you have Volkswagen, Subaru, Porsche for the cheaper choices.
If you're willing to open your wallet, then there's Mendeola, Hewland, etc.
I like transverse, because it saves an inefficient gearset with a direction change.
However, an engine having sporting pretensions (12 cylinders) is too long to be installed transverse; longtitudinal is the only way it can fit.
Thank you all for your responses. All of the replies were interesting to me. Still what I was asking (and I may not have worded it clearly enough) was how are transverse oriented engines themselves different from longitudinally oriented engines. In my mind I picture a engine turned sideways as being able to hook up to those sideways transaxles. I can see how the motor mounts might be different, but do not know. I can also see the bolt patterns to hook up to the transmission as potentially being different, but could also see how they could be the same. I could see how the oil pans might need to be different, but again, do not know. Also one of the responses about how it delivers torque makes me wonder a few more things. I have seen how longitudinal engines deliver torque to chassis, and it makes sense that a sideways engine would be different but you have also lead me to wonder if the crankshaft rotation might be different. (I:E counter-clockwise instead of clockwise).
I feel like all of these things would be good to know in the planning stages of a project.
Thank you in advance for any and all additional information.
In theory, a longetudal engine will exhibit torque twist to one side because of the directional rotation of the engine, where a transverse engine wild not. Whether this translates to a real world difference is debatable. Daryl.
yeah, but transverse engines end up with unequal length axles and thus torque steer.
yeah, but transverse engines end up with unequal length axles and thus torque steer.
That comment helps significantly in that it creates a potential to at least reduce, if not eliminate FWD torque steer. Of course my actual question still stands untouched....How are Transverse oriented engines physically different than Longitudinal oriented engines? I have tried looking in a few engine bays, but thus far that has not helped much.
The question can matter quite a bit considering it could open up potential for use a number of engines sitting in salvage yards that would not be considered otherwise.
yeah, but transverse engines end up with unequal length axles and thus torque steer.
And this is an issue in a rear drive set up how?? oh and have you looked at most newer vehicles with 200+hp fwd that don't rip the wheel out of your hands.
Engines designed for transverse layout are typically shorter in overall length than their longitudinal counterparts. To accomplish this, accessory placement and components used will change. The GM FWD (transverse engines) platform also uses a couple of common design theme to maximize use of space. 1. Crankshaft flange is flush with the bellhousing face. 2. Air intake path is typically 180 degrees from the longitudinal setups and routed over the transmission.
For example, the Iron Duke was used in longitudinal and transverse applications. The longitudinal versions had the water pump attached to the front of the block and the accessory belt drive was a few inches further from the timing cover. In the transverse applications, the water pump was attached to the side of the block, which allowed the accessory drive to be much closer to the timing cover and reduce the overall length of the engine.
The same is true with the LS(x) engines. The LS4 was designed as a transverse engine, all others were designed as RWD longitudinal, so the LS4 accessory drive is several inches closer to the timing cover, the crankshaft flange was shortened (and the block lengthened) to get it flush with the bellhousing face, and the LS4 intake was flipped 180 so the throttle body is over the transmission. All of these factors were to make the overall length of the engine shorter so it can more easily fit between the frame rails in a transverse orientation.
The Northstar was designed as a transverse engine, so its accessory belt drive is very close to the front timing cover and its water pump was designed to be driven off the back side of the head - effectively mounting it in the middle of the engine bay over the transmission vs. taking up critical space at the typical accessory end of the engine. It also has the flush crankshaft flange and the throttle body is over the transmission.
The transverse layout generally has less driveline loss than a similar longitudinal setup because the power flow doesn't need to turn 90 degrees in the differential.
The Muira has a transverse mounted V12 and there was a BMW V12 installed transversely in a stock width Fiero.
Nearly all OEM transverse setups now use equal length axle shafts - they adjust the length of the intermediate shaft and drivetrain placement to accomplish this.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-12-2017).]
The 2.8 in the Fiero is the same block as a 2,8 used in 4wd and 2wd s10 blazers and pickups, so in answer to your question as far as the differences, none (IMO) of course.
The 2.8 in the Fiero is the same block as a 2,8 used in 4wd and 2wd s10 blazers and pickups, so in answer to your question as far as the differences, none (IMO) of course.
Not so much. GM has different starter placements for FWD amd RWD. For GM, block mountes starter placement on RWD engines is not compatible with their FWD transaxles.
Again, thank you all for your replies. I appreciate you all tolerate my questions even though I don't have a Fiero....YET! BTW, I think I have one found I want to get, just working on raising money!
There are numerous informative response in this thread, fieroguru's response was the most thorough to what I was asking. Especially thank you fieroguru!
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Engines designed for transverse layout are typically shorter in overall length than their longitudinal counterparts. To accomplish this, accessory placement and components used will change. The GM FWD (transverse engines) platform also uses a couple of common design theme to maximize use of space. 1. Crankshaft flange is flush with the bellhousing face. 2. Air intake path is typically 180 degrees from the longitudinal setups and routed over the transmission.
For example, the Iron Duke was used in longitudinal and transverse applications. The longitudinal versions had the water pump attached to the front of the block and the accessory belt drive was a few inches further from the timing cover. In the transverse applications, the water pump was attached to the side of the block, which allowed the accessory drive to be much closer to the timing cover and reduce the overall length of the engine.
The same is true with the LS(x) engines. The LS4 was designed as a transverse engine, all others were designed as RWD longitudinal, so the LS4 accessory drive is several inches closer to the timing cover, the crankshaft flange was shortened (and the block lengthened) to get it flush with the bellhousing face, and the LS4 intake was flipped 180 so the throttle body is over the transmission. All of these factors were to make the overall length of the engine shorter so it can more easily fit between the frame rails in a transverse orientation.
The Northstar was designed as a transverse engine, so its accessory belt drive is very close to the front timing cover and its water pump was designed to be driven off the back side of the head - effectively mounting it in the middle of the engine bay over the transmission vs. taking up critical space at the typical accessory end of the engine. It also has the flush crankshaft flange and the throttle body is over the transmission.
The transverse layout generally has less driveline loss than a similar longitudinal setup because the power flow doesn't need to turn 90 degrees in the differential.
The Muira has a transverse mounted V12 and there was a BMW V12 installed transversely in a stock width Fiero.
Nearly all OEM transverse setups now use equal length axle shafts - they adjust the length of the intermediate shaft and drivetrain placement to accomplish this.
------------------ To realize a dream, one must first dream it!
The 60-degree V6 is a good example of an engine that was used in both longitudinal and transverse applications. There were some differences between the two, but nothing really major. Like Fieroguru mentioned above, the starter is mounted on the right side (passenger side) of the engine for longitudinal, to avoid interfering with the steering column. But it's mounted on the left side (firewall side in a Fiero) in a transverse arrangement, to avoid interfering with the CV axles. The two arrangements also use different flywheels, and the intake manifold is mounted differently. These differences are basically just for packaging (i.e. getting it to fit in the vehicle). The basic workings of the engine aren't changed.
Things get a bit more complicated when you look at random cars in a salvage yard. When checking out a longitudinal engine on another car, here are some things to consider:
1) Will the starter interfere with the CV axles on your gearbox? (assuming you mate it to a transverse gearbox) And if so, is there a way to mount the starter on the other side of the engine? 2) How long is the engine (front to back)? Will it interfere with the passenger side frame rail if you mount it transversely? If so, will you be able to move the gearbox over enough to make room? 3) Will you need an adapter plate to mount it to your gearbox? 4) Will you need to have a custom flywheel and/or clutch made to mate it to your gearbox? 5) Will you need to have custom axles made? (if you had to move the gearbox over to make room, you'll need custom length axles)
There are probably a few other things that I didn't mention.
As for engine rotation, it is standard for engines to rotate clockwise. There are a few exceptions, but they aren't very common. Here are some examples: https://itstillruns.com/car...ockwise-7516028.html
If you do get a counter-clockwise rotating engine, you'll need to get a matching transmission. Otherwise, you'll have one forward gear and multiple reverse gears.
One last thing: Lots of different engines have been swapped into Fieros. So there's a good chance that whatever engine you're considering may have been swapped by someone else already. It wouldn't hurt to ask the forum, and see if someone can share their experience.
The 60-degree V6 is a good example of an engine that was used in both longitudinal and transverse applications. There were some differences between the two, but nothing really major. Like Fieroguru mentioned above, the starter is mounted on the right side (passenger side) of the engine for longitudinal, to avoid interfering with the steering column. But it's mounted on the left side (firewall side in a Fiero) in a transverse arrangement, to avoid interfering with the CV axles. The two arrangements also use different flywheels, and the intake manifold is mounted differently. These differences are basically just for packaging (i.e. getting it to fit in the vehicle). The basic workings of the engine aren't changed.
Things get a bit more complicated when you look at random cars in a salvage yard. When checking out a longitudinal engine on another car, here are some things to consider:
1) Will the starter interfere with the CV axles on your gearbox? (assuming you mate it to a transverse gearbox) And if so, is there a way to mount the starter on the other side of the engine? 2) How long is the engine (front to back)? Will it interfere with the passenger side frame rail if you mount it transversely? If so, will you be able to move the gearbox over enough to make room? 3) Will you need an adapter plate to mount it to your gearbox? 4) Will you need to have a custom flywheel and/or clutch made to mate it to your gearbox? 5) Will you need to have custom axles made? (if you had to move the gearbox over to make room, you'll need custom length axles)
There are probably a few other things that I didn't mention.
As for engine rotation, it is standard for engines to rotate clockwise. There are a few exceptions, but they aren't very common. Here are some examples: https://itstillruns.com/car...ockwise-7516028.html
If you do get a counter-clockwise rotating engine, you'll need to get a matching transmission. Otherwise, you'll have one forward gear and multiple reverse gears.
One last thing: Lots of different engines have been swapped into Fieros. So there's a good chance that whatever engine you're considering may have been swapped by someone else already. It wouldn't hurt to ask the forum, and see if someone can share their experience.
Excellent response and very much addressing why I asked the question! I am thinking I should try to find the engine, transmission and ECU in the same car at a salvage auction. That leaves those things already setup to work together. An XTS-V with an LF3 at the right price would be an awesome find. GM does sell the LF4 in both transverse and longitudinal configurations new, but that is also over $7,000 just for the engine... I am not sure if the LF4 in transverse will be findable in a salvage yard for quite some time if at all.. As much as I would prefer transverse manual, I think the auto is going to be easier to find..... All of those come with power steering pump attached though, making it easier to add power steering. It is also possible that a number of other useful components come out of buying a car at a salvage IMHO. You guys are really helping me weigh this whole thing out in advance. Thank you very much!!!
------------------ To realize a dream, one must first dream it!
Thank you for the link. That does show both that I am on the right track, and that seeking out experience is going to be very beneficial due to some of the potential headaches. That guy buying an LF3 for $1700 is ahead of the game though. I might add that during some of my own efforts at researching before asking questions I did discover that GM offers a Bosch ECU for the LF4R. I don't forsee me being able to afford an LF4r though...
Anther option I have looked at is the normally aspirated 3.9 High Value in the G6 GTP. I may try finding one of those with a six speed.
I am researching well ahead anyway. As soon as I can acquire my car, I want to enjoy it "as is" for a little while before it goes through a transformation....
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Longitudinal engines have been swapped into Fieros most often using a SBC engine with a TH325 and TH425 auto transaxle that was used in the Oldsmobile Toronado. Its a large heavy setup and not an easy swap but the drivetrain is very strong. What I dislike about is most is that the entire trunk must be cut away to install the powertrain. Never cared much for this setup.
Plus when they cut out the front trunk wall to install the swap... Too often Little to Nothing is done to brace the Strut Towers etc when finish. That Wall and trunk floor are the tower bracing and ties the whole rear together. Needs more then a simple tube brace that only go to the top of both towers.
Heavy metal under bumper and plastic crush pack isn't made to brace anything. The Impact Bar only is bolted to the frame w/ 4 bolts.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
You guys are really helping me be prepared well to do this. Although some of the responses are going to cause some more searches and questions...but hey, if you want to do it right!
------------------ To realize a dream, one must first dream it!
yeah, but transverse engines end up with unequal length axles and thus torque steer.
The powertrain on my 3800SC swap is very much centered. My axles are within 1/2" of the same length. The difference from side to side is so small that there should not be any torque steer and there isn't. With the Longitudinal swap you really don't have much length for a powertrain and since the engine sits over the transmission there are interference issues with the axles that must be overcome. This kind of swap also requires, a completely new cradle be fabricated. With a SBC , a TH425, the new cradle and all, you probably end up with over 800 lbs to the car and no trunk at all. The battery goes up front so that kills whatever little space for storage is there. Not to put down anyone who has done this swap but its not for me.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The powertrain on my 3800SC swap is very much centered. My axles are within 1/2" of the same length. The difference from side to side is so small that there should not be any torque steer and there isn't. With the Longitudinal swap you really don't have much length for a powertrain and since the engine sits over the transmission there are interference issues with the axles that must be overcome. This kind of swap also requires, a completely new cradle be fabricated. With a SBC , a TH425, the new cradle and all, you probably end up with over 800 lbs to the car and no trunk at all. The battery goes up front so that kills whatever little space for storage is there. Not to put down anyone who has done this swap but its not for me.
I was just thinking about some of the very things you mentioned in that comment. All of your responses have given a great deal of "Food for thought". While I was doing some more additional research I ran across this pic. To be truthful though, I don't think I want a longitudinal setup at all. establishing what situations a longitudinal engine can be used with a transverse transmission/transaxle though can be really useful. Here is a pic that may be of interest......... [img]https://www.google.com/imgres?
I hope I post this right. imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.highperformancepontiac.com%2Ff%2FR_Runner%2F10112831%2Bw450%2Bh338%2Bcr0%2Bre1%2Bar1%2F2003-pontiac-fiero-pontiac-power.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fclassicmotorsports.com%2Fforum%2Fgrm%2Fwhat-car-thread-lunatic-edition%2F41944%2Fp age1%2F&docid=fNi3nMLqDLsEFM&tbnid=Y9HbK-uKhyvVWM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjS19-g2NTVAhVL2WMKHZmhAqUQMwgsKAUwBQ..i&w=449&h=338&bih=803&biw=1600&q=pontiac%20fiero%20drivetrain&ved=0ahUKEwjS19-g2NTVAhVL2WMKHZmhAqUQMwgsKAUwBQ&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=338&imgdii=Y9HbK-uKhyvVWM :&vet=10ahUKEwjS19-g2NTVAhVL2WMKHZmhAqUQMwgsKAUwBQ..i&w=449[/img]
------------------ To realize a dream, one must first dream it!
Another important thing to consider is oil pan baffling. RWD and FWD oil pans are baffled differently. Fiero 2.8 oil pans suck. You can see this when your oil pressure drops taking a hard left turn. This is one of the reasons I never use the older 2.8/3.4 blocks anymore. The newer aluminum head V6/60 engines have proper FWD oil baffling. If you are going to mount a RWD engine transverse, you should change the baffling.
Another limitation of the transverse layout would be horsepower. A transaxle is only going to take so much before snapping a transfer chain or splitting a case.
As others have said, the basic engine is usually the same block and heads. It's the accessories and other ancillary equipment that make the difference. A good example is the 3.4 that came in the 93-95 Camaro / Firebird platform. That engine is/was one of the more popular swaps into a Fiero. The block casting is quite similar. It even uses the identical heads. The swap can be accomplished by drilling holes in the block "flange", for the starter, on the opposite side, and bolting all the Fiero brackets and accessories to it. Any high performance cam that worked with the Fiero 2.8 will also work with the 3.4, as installed. (This is not including the roller cam transverse FWD 3.4, which, strangely enough, is actually a more difficult swap into the transverse Fiero. (Some people may tell you that it's all in the details, but the fact remains that it's a bunch more work to adapt a FWD transverse 3.4 engine into a Fiero. Especially for the uninitiated.)
But yeah... as long as the basic constraints of engine operation are observed, there's no reason that a longitudinal engine can't work when mounted transversely. The real challenge will be finding and adapting suitable accessories (and transaxles) to work within the confines of the Fiero engine compartment. (Search user name "mender" on this forum. He's installing an LFX in a Fiero. I was thinking about it, but will probably go in a different direction.)
Plus when they cut out the front trunk wall to install the swap... Too often Little to Nothing is done to brace the Strut Towers etc when finish. That Wall and trunk floor are the tower bracing and ties the whole rear together. Needs more then a simple tube brace that only go to the top of both towers.
Heavy metal under bumper and plastic crush pack isn't made to brace anything. The Impact Bar only is bolted to the frame w/ 4 bolts.
Yes I have almost always seen full trunk wall cutaways in the longitudinal swaps and you bring up a very good point. A single strut tower brace is sometimes used to replace the missing metal trunk front, but if you look at the trunk wall it provides more support than just at the top. I've saw one longitudinal SBC swap where the builder fabricated a box cradle for the setup and that was used to tie the strut towers together at a cost of adding much more weight. The TH425 weighs about 350 lbs, then add the engine weight. You are looking at one heavy Fiero. Lots of pictures in this link and one that shows how the box frame is used. SBC Long Mt
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-13-2017).]
The 2.8 in the Fiero is the same block as a 2,8 used in 4wd and 2wd s10 blazers and pickups, so in answer to your question as far as the differences, none (IMO) of course.
Don't forget that the 2.8 V6 was also used in the Jeep Cherokee in the 80's before the inline 6 was used.
The thing about taking a longitudinal engine and mounting it to a transverse transmission is that if the bolt patterns don't match and you need an adapter plat that will push the engine far over to the right. The thing I never liked about the SBC in the Fiero (Except LS4) is having the water pump in the wheel well. Maybe not all have that anymore, but it's still pushed far to the right. With a 60 degree V6 that won't be an issue, but it's food for thought.
The thing about taking a longitudinal engine and mounting it to a transverse transmission is that if the bolt patterns don't match and you need an adapter plat that will push the engine far over to the right. The thing I never liked about the SBC in the Fiero (Except LS4) is having the water pump in the wheel well. Maybe not all have that anymore, but it's still pushed far to the right. With a 60 degree V6 that won't be an issue, but it's food for thought.
I used to have a Triumph TR7 that had a slant 4 in it. One cool thing about that engine is that it had a gear driven water pump in the engine block. It was driven by a gear drive exactly like a distributor. VERY compact and the cavity it set in had a weep hole for water leaks so it would not contaminate the engine oil if a leak developed. This would be a good idea to develop in modern engines. Ideally on a V8 they could have one small pump for each bank and located between the center two cylinders in the valley of the block driven by the camshaft. This would give all 8 cylinders equal cooling water, that is not possible with one pump at the front of the engine.
The powertrain on my 3800SC swap is very much centered. My axles are within 1/2" of the same length. The difference from side to side is so small that there should not be any torque steer and there isn't.
I don't believe that differences in rear axle length have an affect on torque steer. IF you have rear wheel induced torque steer, you have suspension issues.
I used to have a Triumph TR7 that had a slant 4 in it. One cool thing about that engine is that it had a gear driven water pump in the engine block. It was driven by a gear drive exactly like a distributor. VERY compact and the cavity it set in had a weep hole for water leaks so it would not contaminate the engine oil if a leak developed. This would be a good idea to develop in modern engines. Ideally on a V8 they could have one small pump for each bank and located between the center two cylinders in the valley of the block driven by the camshaft. This would give all 8 cylinders equal cooling water, that is not possible with one pump at the front of the engine.
For the life of me I don't know why belt driven pumps are still the preferred method of implementation for engines.
The water pump in my 2.2 ecotec is chain driven off the crankshaft. An external belt drives the alternator and the AC pump. My 1991 Civic wagon has a water pump driven off the timing belt. I am sure most modern OHC engines do not drive water pumps with an external belt. The reason most modern super cars use longitudanal engines is that is the only way to get longer control arms in the cars. Longer arms make better handling cars. Tranverse engine sports cars are generally cheaper models. The only new one I can think of is the newish Alpha Romeo two seater.
However, an engine having sporting pretensions (12 cylinders) is too long to be installed transverse; longtitudinal is the only way it can fit.
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[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 08-15-2017).]
The water pump in my 2.2 ecotec is chain driven off the crankshaft. An external belt drives the alternator and the AC pump. My 1991 Civic wagon has a water pump driven off the timing belt. I am sure most modern OHC engines do not drive water pumps with an external belt. The reason most modern super cars use longitudanal engines is that is the only way to get longer control arms in the cars. Longer arms make better handling cars. Tranverse engine sports cars are generally cheaper models. The only new one I can think of is the newish Alpha Romeo two seater.
I guess I mostly drive primitive cars with serpentine belts. There should be no belts whatsoever in my opinion.
