I took the cover off my Fiero to look at how much space I have to see if I can pull the trans from the top and leave the engine in place, and while measuring I found this crack on the other side of the trans that I didn't see before! This means that the crack went all around! I'm thankful it didn't completely came apart while I was driving!
On previous track events the alternator stopped charging. After some investigating I found out I was over revving it. After some calculations I was able to dial the alternator gear ratio to produce max amps at the max RPMS without stressing it and also saving me some power in between! Sorry for the lateness but a broken transmission is hindering me from proving a strategic built 3.4 push rod is capable to make over 250WHP.
edit for spelling
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 04-30-2018).]
Now imagine how badly your water pump is cavitating at high RPM. This is why I use an underdrive pulley on my engine (plus a couple extra HP at high RPM).
Now imagine how badly your water pump is cavitating at high RPM. This is why I use an underdrive pulley on my engine (plus a couple extra HP at high RPM).
Yes Mike, I'm working on installing an electric water pump to save some ponies. I also have an underdrive pulley on the crank and just got an overdrive pulley for he alternator. The only test I have to do is the amps at idle which I'll do today. The pump I'll use draws 11-13 amps at full flow. Did I mention I have a 220Amp alternator?
Thats a big amp for a race setup. I would think you would not need that many amps for track day. You are not running a radio, ac, and other creature comforts that requires amps.
Thats a big amp for a race setup. I would think you would not need that many amps for track day. You are not running a radio, ac, and other creature comforts that requires amps.
Yes it is a lot but as the alternator gets hot it produces less amps. So that's why I got this one.
My plan is to do away with the alternator for racing. I bought a 100AH Battleborn LiFePO4 battery. Should let me drive to the track, race and drive home. I'm going to rig a 12v battery charge controller and 100W solar panel to keep it charged up between events... Heck, if you come up with a good solution for electric water pump, I'd get a 2nd battery to run that...
I'm hoping I can install one of those electric water pump drive kits where the alternator would have been to drive the stock water pump...
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-01-2018).]
This is my Alt. melting at high RPM even with the alt. fan working. So, as you can see I have to improve airflow to the alternator!
This was my alt. pulley.
This is my alternator pulley now. It's overdriven to lighten load throughout the entire RPM.
Electric water pump set up will be next.
PS. Waiting for the Limited slip diff for my other M19. F23 will have to wait. Can't believe that one mount not available in a kit will prevent me to use the F23 now. I'll save the F23 for the 300WHP Supernatural and hopefully by that time a rear mount will be available, If not I'll me my own kit.
Originally posted by La fiera: Electric water pump set up will be next.
For sustained RPM usage keep this in mind: Following the 1/3,1/3,1/3 rule ( of total chemical power, 1/3 goes to the shaft, 1/3 goes to the exhaust, 1/3 goes to the coolant), this is often a typical starting point for system sizing. And 20 Deg F is the usual temp rise across an engine.
250 HP = 10602 BTU/Min
Flow (GPM) = Heat Rejection (BTU/Min) / [ Delta T (F) x Specific Heat (BTU/lb*F) x Density (lb/gal) ]
72 GPM = 10602 BTU/Min / [ 20F x .85 BTU/lb*F x 8.6 lb/gal ] (this is for 50/50 glycol/water)
Don't expect any electric water pump to cool very well at sustained high RPM circuit driving. A standard 55GPM remote pump is capable of cooling an average sustained power level of 189 HP
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 05-08-2018).]
For sustained RPM usage keep this in mind: Following the 1/3,1/3,1/3 rule ( of total chemical power, 1/3 goes to the shaft, 1/3 goes to the exhaust, 1/3 goes to the coolant), this is often a typical starting point for system sizing. And 20 Deg F is the usual temp rise across an engine.
250 HP = 10602 BTU/Min
Flow (GPM) = Heat Rejection (BTU/Min) / [ Delta T (F) x Specific Heat (BTU/lb*F) x Density (lb/gal) ]
72 GPM = 10602 BTU/Min / [ 20F x .85 BTU/lb*F x 8.6 lb/gal ] (this is for 50/50 glycol/water)
Don't expect any electric water pump to cool very well at sustained high RPM circuit driving. A standard 55GPM remote pump is capable of cooling an average sustained power level of 189 HP
Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter. Heat is transferred from engine cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the external environment via the radiator. That formula completely changes if straight water with a good anticorrosive additive is us used and add to that an oversized heat exchanger.
Originally posted by La fiera: Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter. Heat is transferred from engine cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the external environment via the radiator. That formula completely changes if straight water with a good anticorrosive additive is us used and add to that an oversized heat exchanger.
That's just not true.
These all vary by temperature, but on average, for the ranges that concern us currently:
-Straight water has a specific heat of 1 BTU/lbF
-50/50 Glycol mix has a specific hear of 0.85 BTU/lbF
That is 15% less heat capacity, not 50%.
-The density of straight water is 8.1 lb/Gal
-The density of 50/50 is 8.6 lb/Gal
The volumetric heat capacity: -Water: 8.1 BTU/GalF -50/50: 7.31 BTU/GalF
That is a 10% difference in heat capacity by volume
Straight water:
65.4GPM needed flow for 250HP.
I edited this to remove my slightly complex response. A radiator helps, but isn't the cure for a insufficient pump, which is most critical when duty cycle increases.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 05-08-2018).]
I took the cover off my Fiero to look at how much space I have to see if I can pull the trans from the top and leave the engine in place, and while measuring I found this crack on the other side of the trans that I didn't see before! This means that the crack went all around! I'm thankful it didn't completely came apart while I was driving!
If you are making more than 200 ft lbs of torque you exceed the design limits of a Fiero manual transmission. I've seen many a Getrag and 4 speed blown in high demand applications. Also consider those boxes are 30+ years old. You can drop the trans leaving the engine in place and without dropping the entire cradle. You remove the tire and left strut, support the engine with a jack and hold in place w a 2 x 4 piece of wood, unbolt trans mounts, lower the rear of the cradle down just enough with a floor jack, disconnect clutch cylinder and shift linkage, remove trans bolts and pull the unit out of the left wheel house.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If you are making more than 200 ft lbs of torque you exceed the design limits of a Fiero manual transmission. I've seen many a Getrag and 4 speed blown in high demand applications. Also consider those boxes are 30+ years old. You can drop the trans leaving the engine in place and without dropping the entire cradle. You remove the tire and left strut, support the engine with a jack and hold in place w a 2 x 4 piece of wood, unbolt trans mounts, lower the rear of the cradle down just enough with a floor jack, disconnect clutch cylinder and shift linkage, remove trans bolts and pull the unit out of the left wheel house.
I would not trust a 2x4 to hold up the engine. I would suggest 2x6 minimum.
A good quality 2x6 should be ok (good grade without knots), but it must be held vertically. Using a square 6x6 would easily resolve the issue of having the 2x6 fall over on its side.
There must be electric water pumps that are big enough to meet the needs of track driving, no?
These all vary by temperature, but on average, for the ranges that concern us currently:
-Straight water has a specific heat of 1 BTU/lbF
-50/50 Glycol mix has a specific hear of 0.85 BTU/lbF
That is 15% less heat capacity, not 50%.
-The density of straight water is 8.1 lb/Gal
-The density of 50/50 is 8.6 lb/Gal
The volumetric heat capacity: -Water: 8.1 BTU/GalF -50/50: 7.31 BTU/GalF
That is a 10% difference in heat capacity by volume
Straight water:
65.4GPM needed flow for 250HP.
I edited this to remove my slightly complex response. A radiator helps, but isn't the cure for a insufficient pump, which is most critical when duty cycle increases.
Your calculations are very good! In paper they look good with fixed variables, but if I change some fixed variables like a bigger radiator and oil cooler it's like changing the fixed variable "speed of light" in "c" in the E=mc2 formula and then everything changes. I don't think I'll have a problem because the same electric pump I'll be using has been tried in another 240WHP turbo Time Attack car and the Aussie never had a problem. But but if I do, which could happened because I can be wrong, I'll pull out the big guns. I'll increase the radiator capacity by tripling it with this radiator and a bigger oil cooler. This is a radiator from a 850HP Nascar, specifically from Kyle Bush's car. (I don't like him). Got it for free from a friend that works for him as a fabricator. I'll also run the system in a "reverse flow" for better efficiency.
By the way, I tried the bigger pulley on the alternator and holy moly!!!! The engine revs so fast that my cheap tach can't react fast enough, it reads to 5000rpm and it misses. As I looked at the MegaSquirt tach on the laptop it hits 7000rpm and misses. That miss is the rev limiter cutting spark and fuel! Also it went from idling at 1100rpm to 1500rpm, definitely an increase in power. The alt volts at 1500rpm are 12.5 but as soon as I touch the throttle pedal it jumps to 14.7 past 3000rpm. I snap the throttle half way and it hits the rev limiter!
I know. These guys are from Serbia and they have very good reputation with the European crowd. Their design is so much better than Phantom Grip, no shavings on your trans. I don't want to keep breaking axles and trannys.
Just to give some updates! Got the material to make a flat bottom to increase down force with less drag.
I know! "Are you still with a distributor?" I get that question asked a lot. This Pertronix box gives you multiple sparks all the way to redline. Unlike the MSD's that will give you multiple spark until 3000rpms! Throttle response is awesome!! This weekend I'm going to Florida for vacation and to pick up my trans. I'll meet Fiero enthusiast and friend Blacktree to do some work on the newly acquiered trans. Then is a matter to install it in the car. Can't wait! Should be hitting the Dyno soon!!
Originally posted by La fiera: I know! "Are you still with a distributor?" I get that question asked a lot. This Pertronix box gives you multiple sparks all the way to redline. Unlike the MSD's that will give you multiple spark until 3000rpms! Throttle response is awesome!!
Just out of curiosity, what is your spark plug gap?
I'm currently using 0.045" gap, which is the spec for the 3.4 V6 in the F-Body. Anything larger causes misfires and sooty spark plugs. Haven't tried smaller yet.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-18-2018).]
Just out of curiosity, what is your spark plug gap?
I'm currently using 0.045" gap, which is the spec for the 3.4 V6 in the F-Body. Anything larger causes misfires and sooty spark plugs. Haven't tried smaller yet.
I've been running .050 with the small MSD anything bigger than that and it misfires at high RPMS After I installed this Pertronix box I haven't play with the gap.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-18-2018).]
I would not trust a 2x4 to hold up the engine. I would suggest 2x6 minimum.
You need to remove the trans mounts and need a way to hold up the engine. I've used an 8" piece of 2 x 4 between the starter and the cradle to do this. Maybe not an ideal way but it works. This is the way Ed Parks at the Fiero Factory did it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Yeah with a better/stonger ignition you can increase the gap, that's why DIS on a 3.4 used a .060 gap but distributors call for .045 ... however when you increase compression ratio, you have to decrease the gap slightly to compensate. For instance, my DIS 3.4 has about 10:1 CR and I run ~ .053 gap.
Just that it's not exactly a limited slip because the bias torque is constant and has no relationship to throughput torque.
I know Will, this is just a band aid so I can enjoy my car for a bit and get it right. After feeling how my Fiero handled with the locked diff I don't think I'll be satisfied with this thing or a real (Quaife) limited slip. Real man drive locked diff cars. LOL. The MG3 F23 will have the diff locked.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-26-2018).]
I haven't really been following your build but it popped up in a search today. How's the project going? When you finish up it would be awesome to summarize the build w/list of mods you kept and rejected (if any) Thx.
Right now I'm waiting on the transmission. The tranny shop seems to be very busy, you know how these NASCAR shops are, hopefully I'll get it soon. Meantime I'm working on some other upgrades to save some HP to increase the output to meet my goal and they will be revealed once the project is finished. I'll do a series of short detailed videos showing how I achieved it. Thank you for reaching out and keep checking this thread!
PS. Check out this other thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/140750.html This one is basically the same as the 3.4 using everything from it except with more displacement. I just finished the block yesterday it's just a matter of putting everything together.
Finally got my my stuff all at once! The tranny shop was very busy, the place I order the mounts and shifter fixture was also very busy but both of them did a good job! So, this long weekend I plan to get the trans ready to go in and get the car ready to start removing the broken trans! I got some family coming so you know how that goes!
Yes Paul! I thought about that by my concern is heat management. The main reason I'm re-routing-doing my Y pipe is because 1- it is too heavy and 2- to cool the engine bay a bit. The way I have it now the down pipe goes under the firewall header and that contributes to a lot of heat in the engine compartment. If I route it differently I can probably cool down the engine bay by a couple of 100 degrees. The way I'm planing to run the exhaust should give me a couple of ponies on top end.
