While researching the 2.4 Ecotec LE5 engine for a possible swap, I stumbled across some info that some may find useful. First, the LE5 also powers the Polaris Slingshot. Basically a 3 wheel motorcycle. This appears to open up a whole new set of possibilities for aftermarket support. (They sell a gorgeous 4 into 1 stainless header. I don't know if it will fit a Fiero application, however.) Click me!
There are also several aftermarket stand alone ECMs and harnesses available. One supports drive by wire, and the other supports a cable operated throttle body. They're not inexpensive, however. And me! They also offer some discounts on eBay, for the drive by wire stuff.
For the price of that wiring harness you could probably get a base cobalt SS with an LE5 in it .They are old cars now. The super/turbo motors were option motors in the cobalt ss, LE5 was the base motor.Not hard to make it work if you have the whole car to work with. The standalone system does make it easier but that is a big cash outlay. Those headers won't work, they point your exhaust piping straight at your axle. It is a solstice header designed to have a cat bolted right to it pointing down and back toward the rear of a solstice/sky and of course the slingshot that is also front engine rear drive configuration.
I saw that it pointed straight down, but it looked like there might be room for an elbow, or something. Looked like there might be nearly a foot. As I said, I don't know that it would fit.
The advantage of the LE5 is that they are a decent price.
The downside is that these N/A motors are hard to get any major output improvements from.
The turbo versions (LNF) are more expensive, have more 'packaging' challenges but start at 260 bhp, have a factory optional tune for 290 bhp and with less than a couple of thousand bucks you can tune them for around 375 bhp without even unbuttoning the engine. Depends on what you are after.
Just the 2.4 LE5 would be a significant step up for a Fiero.
The advantage of the LE5 is that they are a decent price.
Just the 2.4 LE5 would be a significant step up for a Fiero.
That's kind of why I was considering this. Depending upon the application, they make between 170 and 190 HP, right out of the box. A header would probably be worth another 10 HP, at least. (Again, that depends upon who you want to listen to. I've heard as much as 20. But I've seen pictures of both the header and the stock manifold. The header has potential for huge flow increases, just based upon the size of the pipes. A free-flowing muffler and pipes wouldn't hurt.)
Although it may not make financial sense not to, I don't really care anything about a boosted application, at this point. Just a personal preference.
I haven't even researched cams and porting. I've just begun my research.
I'm not even sure that this is what I'm going to do. Just discovered the info, above, and thought I'd share.
Engine management can be done cheap with speeduino(under $200 with lots of assembly) or a microsquirt($350, wire it up inside or outside the engine bay and go).
Water meth is a must for any boosted stock 2.2.Add an air to water intercooler and you might make it survive at about 220hp. But the ring lands on the 2.2 are very thin and they will break off and grenade the engine at higher power levels.A lot of people have tried with the same results. At the end of the video I can see some black smoke coming up at the back of the car .I have a turbo 2.2 and as far as I am concerned it is the best bang for the buck. You have to put in Eagle rods and Wiseco or equivalent pistons (and I did that) and then about 500 hp is the limit. NA 2.4 do respond well to exhaust tuning. Stock 2.4's have different power ratings depending on the vehicle they are in due to restrictive exhausts in some models.
The advantage of the LE5 is that they are a decent price.
The downside is that these N/A motors are hard to get any major output improvements from.
The turbo versions (LNF) are more expensive, have more 'packaging' challenges but start at 260 bhp, have a factory optional tune for 290 bhp and with less than a couple of thousand bucks you can tune them for around 375 bhp without even unbuttoning the engine. Depends on what you are after.
Just the 2.4 LE5 would be a significant step up for a Fiero.
I always thought it would be fun to upgrade the turbo on an LNF and pair that combo up the starter generator and accessory drive from the LAT used in Saturn Vue and Aura Green Line cars. That way a Fiero could have a hybrid turbo powertrain using the electric motor for "torque fill" like McLaren does.
One thing to consider would be the 2.4 doesn't have as many aftermarket options like the 2.0 or 2.2 does. If you do an ecotec prior to 2009 make sure you replace the timing chain tensioner with the upgraded version. Im dealing with this issue now in my cobalt.
One thing to consider would be the 2.4 doesn't have as many aftermarket options like the 2.0 or 2.2 does. If you do an ecotec prior to 2009 make sure you replace the timing chain tensioner with the upgraded version. Im dealing with this issue now in my cobalt.
This is a must and I recomend getting a tensioner from Crate Engine Depot to make sure you get the latest version. A lot of dealers have earlier versions on hand and they will sell them to you because they don't know any better. The newest tensioner is the 3rd design. Unfortunately there is no longer that much available for the older Ecotecs like mine. GM Racing block, forged steel crankshaft, complete racing head assembly and a host of other parts are no longer available.
I've been dreaming of an ecotec swap ever since I bought a new 04 Ion Redline. One question... do you get to keep the whole trunk when doing a turbo? Thinking someday might do an LHU or LNF swap but would like to keep the trunk in case I want to do a weekend getaway.
This is a must and I recomend getting a tensioner from Crate Engine Depot to make sure you get the latest version. A lot of dealers have earlier versions on hand and they will sell them to you because they don't know any better. The newest tensioner is the 3rd design.
Interesting... I didn't realize there was a 3rd version. I probably have the second design, replaced as part of a "silent recall" when the car was in for one of its rare visits to the dealer. I have the 2.4 in my Cobalt. It has 210,000 miles.... Maybe if the body rusts away I can keep the engine for my Fiero!
I've been dreaming of an ecotec swap ever since I bought a new 04 Ion Redline. One question... do you get to keep the whole trunk when doing a turbo? Thinking someday might do an LHU or LNF swap but would like to keep the trunk in case I want to do a weekend getaway.
You could keep the whole trunk with a turbo motor if you tilted the engine forward a bit and ran a 16G turbo mounted up high. On my swap the bottom of the trunk is gone and I had to put a bump in it to accomadate the 20G/Hahn manifold I run now. You can get 2 big duffle bags in the trunk without the bottom so no problem for a weekend getaway.
I probably have more experience with the Ecotecs then most people on this forum. I have tuned a little over 40 Cobalts over the years, the majority of which were Supercharged or Turboed (LSJ or LNF).
I have tuned a few 2.2 and 2.4 engines and can tell you they aren't that great without forced induction. Most of the 2.4s with I/H/E and a tune end up in the 160 Whp range (if I remember correctly) on the dyno I used.
Tuning on them is quite easy as you can use HP Tuners on the factory computer, and it is good enough for most situations. I have a friend who has a 2.0 LSJ in his Fiero, and this is probably the best engine for a Fiero swap. If you ge the 2.0 LNF (factory turbo), you have to deal with the high pressure fueling for the direct injection as well as all the other stuff for the swap.
If you get an LSJ (supercharged), and stay on the supercharger, a simple fuel injector, pulley and tune will get you in the 250 to 260WHP range if you have the right cooling (air-water intercooler on them).
But one of my favorite options, is swapping the blower to a turbo. It can easily be done with an intake manifold/throttlebody from the LE5, and then a lot of the factory pieces from the LNF (turbo/exhaust manifold, this is what my friend did on his Fiero).
Whats nice about this is you get decent power (usually 260 to 270 WHP to be safe), but you get an amazing 300 to 320 ft/lbs of Tq (vs the blower is usually in the 230-250 tq range). It leaves you in a great upgrade for the turbo later on, as ZZPerformance sells a bolt on turbo upgrade that is good for 450+ whp, with decent spool. The reason you typically get lower whp/wtq on the LSJ turbo swap with LNF turbo is the boost control. Unless you go full aftermarket standalone you are typically left with fairly limited boost control on the LSJ computer (aftermarket boost controller, typically set for one setting), vs the LNF computer which allows you to vary the duty cycle at different RPMS. Because of this you have to go with a lower boost setting then you would on an LNF, if you want to be safe.
I am willing to bet the Le5 would be less of an improvement than you would like for the work involved. I would suggest finding a cheap LSJ donor with a running engine/transmission so that you have everything you need for the swap, and if you are adventurous, do the turbo swap as well. It makes for a really fun car.
What people have to remember is what we are replacing with an ecotec. Throw out either Fiero engines and replace them with even just a stock 2.2 eco and you get a faster, better handling car than what you had before. You can use any ecotec engine you want and get a huge improvement. I went with a built 2.2 because all the parts are readily available and the motor and everything to make it go only cost me 1000.00 .I have since spent a lot of money on it over the years but this is a hobby car and thats what happens. One bright spot to me is that now you can buy a super or turbocharged Cobalt fairly cheaply and just swap everything in to your fiero. I am very happy with the power from my 2.2, I recently made a big mistake and put a 2" exhaust on it and wasted 2 months until I realized it was at 1/2" too small but it is all part of the learning curve. I have been driving my turbo 2.2 Fiero 86GT for 10 years now. I also tune with HP tuners. Get your friend to do a writeup here on his car, it would be nice to see more ecotec fieros.
My situation is that I don't want to go boosted or DI. Again, that's just a personal preference.
I'm prepared to follow up with most anything that I decide to do, but I was looking for the most bang for the buck, with an NA motor. And also something that won't bore me after driving my 4.9 / 5 speed (torque monster) Formula. And yes, I know that most anything else will have a totally different "flavor". That's not altogether a bad thing.
The other positive aspect of this swap is that the ecotec came with the F23. Roger Thelin sells mounts/brackets for the whole effing setup.
With all of that said, if it gets too complex, I'll just go with the LZ9 or LGD engine, with the NVG T-550 (aka Beretta Getrag) which I am already quite familiar with. That one is 240 FWHP, right out of the box. Installed in a Fiero, with a free-flowing exhaust and intake, I would expect an additional 10 or so. And that's before I do any modding or tuning. And it will still have that sexy V6-60 exhaust note.
Again... thanks for everyone's comments. All are appreciated. I know nothing about ecotecs, other than what I've read. Keep 'em coming.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-18-2017).]
So just to give my perspective on performance, I have never driven a stock Fiero. Mine had a bone stock 3800SC with a 4spd Muncie when I picked it up from my friend (he got rid of it to work on his Ecotec Fiero).
Coming from my Cobalt SS I found it quite slow. It wasn't until I did some major modifications to the 3800SC that I liked the performance.
With that said you will never likely get more then 170WHP out of an NA ecotec. If you are looking for some good performance NA a 4 cylinder is not for you, unless you find some high reving Honda engine. May I ask why you want to stay away from forced induction?
Originally posted by OntarioKev: ... May I ask why you want to stay away from forced induction?
Sure. Mostly space constraints, and my (lack of) fabrication/welding skills. I'm looking for something that I can mostly bolt in. I'm aware that most anything, within reason, can be made to fit into a Fiero. It's just a question of whether I could make it happen. I could possibly go for an SC motor, but I don't care anything about turbos. Again, just personal preference. I'd still prefer to go NA.
But again, the tradeoff is complexity. If it gets much more complicated than a simple bolt-in, I'll just do the V6. Probably an LZ9 or similar. It's been done, with the LX9 and it's variants, repeatedly. The "electronic" aspects do not intimidate me. (Perhaps that makes me foolish.) Fabrication, OTOH, is not a skill I possess.
The LE5 was just another option. The availability of aftermarket Polaris Slingshot pieces was something that made it more... inviting - than the typical ecotec swap. At least initially. (Of course, some of those whackos were posting about swapping in LS engines, so there's that. )
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-18-2017).]
OntarioKev, I'd be curious your perspective on this idea. My understanding is the lsj was a supercharge d version of the lk9 saab 2.0T motor. That said, the lk9 would have same fueling parts as the lsj (not high pressure for direct injection). Also itd be turbo from the start so perhaps swapping a K04 from an LNF would work, or if not I'd think the manifold and turbo from newer lnf would bolt up.
From what i hear Saab triptronic is harder to tune, but if the sensors are the same, couldn't you just swap a refular turbo ecotec computer to control it?
The saab 2.0s (ecotec ones) seem to be fairly cheap at wreckers or craigslist compared to lnf/lhu.
I have never messed with the LK9, but the LSJ was based off of it. I am not sure what they use for engine management. Aren't they direct injected?
I have tuned a few turbo 2.4s in Cobalts they aren't bad, but the LSJ is a far better engine, and so is the transmissions from them (people sometimes have issues with the 2.4l transmissions when turboed).
For every success story of a forced induction 2.4 (or 2.2) ecotec, there is at least 1 story of engine failure, they really aren't that strong when compared to the 2.0.
If your goal is around 250whp, an LSJ with its blower could easily get you there, and should be lighter then the V6 option. The tricky part will be getting the cooling system for the intercooler setup. Its definitely doable, just a bit of work to get it all setup and bled correctly.
The LSJ is based on the L61. All of the 4 cylinder ecotecs originated in Europe, designed by GM engineers at Saab and Opel. The 2.2 L61 was used in Saabs, Opels and Vauxhauls and probably more cars over there GM had lots of brands. The first ecotec named motor had a cast iron block and was never imported to North America. The LSJ has a forged steel crankshaft, a better head gasket and better rods and pistons. But not that much better, to go above 250 HP GM recommends forged rods and pistons. The LSJ is destroked to get it down to 2 litres. The block and heads are the same as the 2.2. The LSJ has piston oil squirters but the passages are in the 2.2 block, ready for machining. When I first did my swap, it was very expensive to get an LSJ (over 2500.00 at most wreckers) and the first L61 I bought for 1000.00 included engine, F23 transmission, two axles, entire car wiring harness with ECM and BCM, complete steering collum with the keys still in the ignition. Eventually I got a newer L61 and added Eagle rods and Wiseco pistons. If I was to do it all again, given a choice between an LSJ and an L61, I would still pick the L61. It is the same work to get them in to the 300+ HP range, the L61 can be had for relative peanuts compared to the LSJ and in the end it is 200 cc bigger. The LSJ crank is really not needed until you start getting up to 600 HP territory. The early 2.4 motors as used in the base Cobalt SS, Solstice and Saturn Sky had similar rods as the LSJ and a forged steel crankshaft. I have never seen a 2.4 piston to see if it has the thin upper ring land similar to the stock L61. If it does the you won't get any serious HP without better pistons. But the bottom end is very solid.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-20-2017).]
I can personally attest to several reliable 400+WHP LSJ stock block (valve springs are really all that's needed), on turboed LSJs. And several 500+ (I think 553 is the most I have done) in a stock block LNF (on race gas of course). That lasted years.
I can personally attest to several failed 2.2s and 2.4s in the low 300WHP range as well. The cylinder heads in the LSJ/LNF are far superior to the L61s, as ar the block internals.
You can get 2004-2005 Ion redline cars for less then $2000 Cdn at this point (don't know why the ions are cheaper then the Cobalts but they are), which has practically everything you need. If you want to make power on the 2.2s or 2.4s it is practically required to rebuild the block with forged rods and pistions, the LSJ/LNF can make good power on the stock block and last for years.
The L61s CAN make decent power, but its far easier to do so on the 2.0 engines as they have far superior cylinder heads from the factory, and much beefier bottom ends.
I can personally attest to several reliable 400+WHP LSJ stock block (valve springs are really all that's needed), on turboed LSJs. And several 500+ (I think 553 is the most I have done) in a stock block LNF (on race gas of course). That lasted years.
I can personally attest to several failed 2.2s and 2.4s in the low 300WHP range as well. The cylinder heads in the LSJ/LNF are far superior to the L61s, as ar the block internals.
You can get 2004-2005 Ion redline cars for less then $2000 Cdn at this point (don't know why the ions are cheaper then the Cobalts but they are), which has practically everything you need. If you want to make power on the 2.2s or 2.4s it is practically required to rebuild the block with forged rods and pistions, the LSJ/LNF can make good power on the stock block and last for years.
The L61s CAN make decent power, but its far easier to do so on the 2.0 engines as they have far superior cylinder heads from the factory, and much beefier bottom ends.
The cylinder heads on the L61 and the LSJ are identical. The LSJ block and the L61 block are identical. You are right about the stock LSJ crank rod and pistons being better from the factory than the L61 but you did not notice that I posted that info already. When you are talking about LSJ and L61 ecotecs you are talking about first generation North American ecotecs. L61 parts and LSJ and LE5 parts are all interchangeable. Lots of frankenstein motors are possible and have been built. If you want accurate information about first gen motors then purchase the GM Sport Compact Performance Build Book Part # 88958728. Its all in there.
That "GM Sport Compact Performance Build Book" is there to sell parts. The cylinder heads between the L61 and LSJ are not identical at all. Yes they can be bolted on to any of the ecotec blocks, but that is where the similarities end. The camshafts are different, the valves are different, and the combustion chambers are shaped a bit differently.
It sounds like you have done one build with an L61 and had a good experience, which is great for you. The LSJ is a far superior platform to start with. If your plan is to fully rebuild the engine yes it really doesn't matter which block/head you start with as you can buy all the different valves/springs/camshaft do head work and make it the same. If your goal is to grab a running engine ands make decent power, the L61 is a TERRIBLE place to start. You will kill that thing quickly much above 230whp, not to mention the fact that the F23 transmission is a piece of junk in comparison to the F35.
L61 is a terrible starting point unless you want to do a full engine build, and even then its better to start with the LSJ (assuming you want to be supercharged), as you already have all the other parts you need. I really can't understand why you would suggest the L61 as a starting point today when a complete car with an LSJ is so cheap today....
You can look up my build if you want.It is 21 pages long in the construction zone. In there you will find that I succesfuly turbocharged a stock 2.2 and drove it for about 5 years without blowing it up. No internal mods. The key to keeping a stock L61 alive is keeping the weak pistons cool. I put in bigger injectors, air to water intercooler and a water meth injection and I tuned it with a HP tuners MPVI Pro system. The rods on a stock L61 will handle over 300 HP while turbocharged. The pistons have survived almost 300 HP. GM tested these engines to destrucion by feed more and more nitrous in to them until they blew up. So we know how much power a L61 can handle.
As far as the cylinder head goes, the L61, LE5,LSJ, and first gen LNF all have the identical valves and are the same identical castings. Later first gen heads eliminated the EGR passage and the boss for the PS pump. All the engines have different cams.
The mistake people have made over and over again with a stock turbo'd L61 is they think they do not need water meth injection. I was a regular on the Ecotec forum for years and every one that blew up did not use water meth. I still use it on my built engine.
The LSJ is a great starting point but I would not trade you my built L61 motor for a built LSJ. It would be a waste of my time.
As far as the cylinder head goes, the L61, LE5,LSJ, and first gen LNF all have the identical valves and are the same identical castings. Later first gen heads eliminated the EGR passage and the boss for the PS pump. All the engines have different cams. ...
That really surprises me. The chart that is floating around that describes the cam specs for various engines is very specific about which cams will (and won't) interchange between engines. Unless it's an issue of valve/piston interference, I don't really get it.
quote
Originally posted by OntarioKev: ...not to mention the fact that the F23 transmission is a piece of junk in comparison to the F35.
As for the F23 being "junk", I see it installed in a lot of Fieros that should theoretically be able to shatter it. 3800s, SBCs, etc. I've seen broken F40s, but can't say that I've seen a broken F23, yet. (Of course, I haven't haunted the Cobalt/Cavalier boards, either. Those guys probably have tranny shattering down to a fine art.)
Interesting discussion. I'm reading...
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-21-2017).]
The cams vary in in their duration , valve timing and some other minor things. Cam peak lift and valve peak lift are very close with just the LE5 and and LNF with slightly more lift than the others.Doubtful that they would cause interference issues. All the info I have from the ecotec forum says that the F35 is the trans with problems. No issues with my F23 and like Raydar said it is used widely behind some pretty powerful engines here without any problems.
I always wondered if the lsj would end up with the blower too close to the firewall. Also, do they make an oil filter relocation kit? I remember the oil filter being a PITA on my ion redline with the supercharger snout covering it. Cant imagine changing it blind like youd probably have to in a fiero swap
I believe the supercharger would fit in provided you mount the engine in the stock "leaned back" position so that it is as fitted to the cobalt. I did not bother to lean mine enough to get the bottom of the oil pan level , but I measured it to check and I think the supercharger would fit in there. On my swap my space problems are with my turbo, especially since I went with the bigger 20G turbo. There are a variety of turbo manifolds available and maybe I could have found one that put the turbo in a better spot. Hahn Racecraft gave me a good deal on a package so I went with their stuff. I do not know if they make an oil filter relocation kit. The superchargers used to be for sale on the various forums fairly cheap. Given the age of the car that the LSJ came in (2006), the supply may have dried up.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-22-2017).]
Earlier this year I bought a pair of VVT solenoids for the 2.4 in my HHR (254,000 trouble free miles) from the eBay seller in the link below. He sells lots of Ecotec salvage parts and often has several LSJ supercharger "kits" listed. I was very tempted to buy one but it has taken me too long to complete the L61/F23 swap into my Fiero as it is. A fairly complete kit from him goes for about $700. Add the misc. parts, plumbing and intercooler and you will be up to about $1000. I would love to do that some day. Honestly, I would be thrilled to have 200 horses in my Fiero. I don't need the expense and complexity of getting 300.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/000544.html Lots of good info and a rather lively discusion about the 2.4 and other ecotecs. I looked up the seller listed on Ebay and he has a lot of good stuff. Thanks for the link.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-23-2017).]
I am waiting on pins and needles for my couple of REI deals to break thru and finally sell (my luck, it looks like they're happening damn near simultaneously w/ 3 of the 4 having signed contracts all happening LITERALLY on YESTERDAY) and I'll be starting the build thread for my Ecotec 2.0 LDK/F40 swap. Acquire the car and parts thru winter and be done w/ build between spring/summer 2018....
I was looking on Crate engine depot to see what they sell for ecotecs and they only list one 4cyl ecotec now and it is a turbo 2.0 called the LTG. FWD part # 12677823 , on sale for 7500.00 plus the control system for 2365.00 . A low mile cobalt ss turbo is looking real cheap these days.
I was looking on Crate engine depot to see what they sell for ecotecs and they only list one 4cyl ecotec now and it is a turbo 2.0 called the LTG. FWD part # 12677823 , on sale for 7500.00 plus the control system for 2365.00 . A low mile cobalt ss turbo is looking real cheap these days.
OUCH!! Too much for that engine.
Definitely can go route of grabbing from good wrecked donor. It's on my possible scenarios list, for sure.
My ideal route/budget was:
$2,500 for crate LDK longblock. $500 for new Saab F40 trans (from UK) + $2,000 for conversion kit $2,200 for standalone wiring harness and ECM $??? mounts from Mr. Thelin _________________________________ $8,000-$9,000 for the parts
Still gots to get the receiver (1988 w/ sunroof, clean frame, body, interior) = $????
[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 10-27-2017).]
Still gots to get the receiver (1988 w/ sunroof, clean frame, body, interior) = $????
Be careful which Saab F40 you grab. The Ecotec does not share the HF V6 pattern. You probably already know that, but just in case...
Also, for the "receiver", check the mall. There's a very nice 88 coupe project for sale. Ad starts out "88 2M4 roller..." Seller is in Richmond VA. It was tempting, and I don't even need another car.
Be careful which Saab F40 you grab. The Ecotec does not share the HF V6 pattern. You probably already know that, but just in case...
Also, for the "receiver", check the mall. There's a very nice 88 coupe project for sale. Ad starts out "88 2M4 roller..." Seller is in Richmond VA. It was tempting, and I don't even need another car.
You’re spot on, as usual. The Ecotec/F40 doesn’t normally work. I’m grabbing a ready made conversion kit to make them mate up (going to cost me more than trans itself ) .
And that’s a FINE looking receiver right there. Thanks for referral!....and for keeping the Ecotec swap discussion relevant.
Looking forward to see what you end up doing on your side.
[This message has been edited by akademikjeanius (edited 10-28-2017).]
You’re spot on, as usual. The Ecotec/F40 doesn’t normally work. ....
Wait... Didn't the Buick GS (or one of the newer Buicks) come with a turbo Ecotec/F40? Not very common, but I believe they're out there. Edit - Starting in ~2011 The F40 was available with the Ecotec, in the Buick Regal and the Opel Insignia. When I saw you were going for a European version, all that occurred to me was "Saab 9-3". Nevermind.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-28-2017).]
Wait... Didn't the Buick GS (or one of the newer Buicks) come with a turbo Ecotec/F40? Not very common, but I believe they're out there. Edit - Starting in ~2011 The F40 was available with the Ecotec, in the Buick Regal and the Opel Insignia. When I saw you were going for a European version, all that occurred to me was "Saab 9-3". Nevermind.
That they did, however gearing is not optimal in them. That's why Saab version is used.
) .
