So I was starting to remove the V6 on my 86GT for a 3800SC swap when I found some horrendous rust. I took out the right rear fender well and this is what it looks like:
Anyone have any ideas as to if there's a way to repair/replace some of this? I don't have much experience with this area of repair. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!
[This message has been edited by FieroObsession (edited 08-16-2018).]
Upper frame rail rust gets mentioned here on a regular basis. Repairing is not for the faint of heart. Most of us would just junk a rusted out Fiero. Having said that, a few industrious souls have done the repair and posted about it. if you can't find those threads while running a Search, someone might post a link.
[EDIT] Ah, the exact person I was thinking about posted while I was typing!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-16-2018).]
While just about anything can be fixed, one sometimes faces the decision of restoring a used Fiero or rebuilding a used up Fiero? IMO, to do the repair mentioned in this post, you would have to be a very skilled welder and metal worker. Is it worth the time and effort? You decide.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by FieroObsession: How has the car held up since you've done this repair? Have you ever had to go back in there and redo any part of it?
Perfectly fine ever since, never redone anything. A few months later, I took out on Michigan International Speedway, and I had my foot to the floor the entire way around the track for several laps, it maxed out at 94MPH according to the GPS.
Also drove it 13 hours from West Deptford, NJ to Traverse City, Michigan. A couple years after that, had it transported to Silicon Valley California, drove the freeways around there for a couple years, passed emissions, took it to work a few times and on weekends, and finally transported back to Michigan.
Perfectly fine ever since, never redone anything. A few months later, I took out on Michigan International Speedway, and I had my foot to the floor the entire way around the track for several laps, it maxed out at 94MPH according to the GPS. Also drove it 13 hours from West Deptford, NJ to Traverse City, Michigan. A couple years after that, had it transported to Silicon Valley California, drove the freeways around there for a couple years, passed emissions, took it to work a few times and on weekends, and finally transported back to Michigan.
You're giving me hope that this is possible! I've been looking through your post, great write up! I know you said it's a PITA and I have almost no experience welding but this particular Fiero has a lot of sentimental value to me and I'd like to repair it if possible. What size square tubing did you end up using for the frame rail (gauge and dimensions)? Also, how long did it take you to do the repairs?
On a side note...if I had a donor Fiero that didn't have any rust, would it be easier to cut out all of the rust, trace the holes on paper, cut those sections of metal out of the donor, then weld those in place? I don't have a donor or any kind of template for what it should look like yet outside of your pictures but I was considering getting a parts donor for some other stuff anyway. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, thanks!
You're giving me hope that this is possible! I've been looking through your post, great write up! I know you said it's a PITA and I have almost no experience welding but this particular Fiero has a lot of sentimental value to me and I'd like to repair it if possible. What size square tubing did you end up using for the frame rail (gauge and dimensions)? Also, how long did it take you to do the repairs?
On a side note...if I had a donor Fiero that didn't have any rust, would it be easier to cut out all of the rust, trace the holes on paper, cut those sections of metal out of the donor, then weld those in place? I don't have a donor or any kind of template for what it should look like yet outside of your pictures but I was considering getting a parts donor for some other stuff anyway. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, thanks!
If you can get a donor frame WITH a good clean title, it'll be a lot easier and faster to swap all the parts to that. If you can only get someone to sell you the back half of the car, that can also be a viable option. A specialty spot weld drill bit and plug welding the holes would be similar to the original spot welding construction.
Fabricating the sheetmetal is a lot of work. The original frame is REALLY thin metal, I was surprised, like 20 gauge, easy to blow holes in it. If you don't have the welding equipment, have to factor that into the cost, too (welder, gas bottle, regulator, mask, gloves, wire...)
It took a bit over a month, but I wasn't working on it all day every day. It was about 20 degrees F in that garage at times.
I made a tutorial on how to make the upper rails based on another member's writeup:
I did the upper frame rail/trunk corners/side sheet repair on an 88 a few years ago. It kept the car on the road although it had so much rust generally that in the end I sold it (at a give away price to reflect the condition and I was honest about it). I'm no great welder but I managed it using same frame rail replacement as shown above. Hardest part is welding to the VERY thin body work sheeting. I got it done but it was not pretty! However it looks to me from those pictures that you have some lower frame rail rust/rot as well. On mine, the lower frame rails were fine. I'm not sure I'd have done it if the lower frame rails were like yours. Also, with that much rust, whats the rest of the underside like, eg front cradle mounts, underside of the tub, rocker (under the plastic covers, mine were all rotted, had to replace) and front suspension. While you 'can' save it you have to ask yourself if it's worth the effort/cost or if just finding another is not a better/cheaper/faster option.
See the 2009/2010 pages of the Diary on my web site for the work I did.
Just my $0.02 worth.
------------------ Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
I'd agree with Dave there.....if you are finding that much rust it is just never in one place. I had picked up a limited edition VW Scirroco back when my daughter was in high school. Same kind of thing going on in the back, further inspection showed that rust had gotten to just about anything that was fitted/bolted together. My mechanic at the time said that even a minor rear ender would tear out the rear of the car so I got rid of the car for parts
I've done a lot of rust repair such as you have. It's a lot of work. I get rust-free sections of spaceframe from donor cars, drill out the spot welds and replace the rusted sections with OEM panels, welded in the same locations as the original assembly. That is the ONLY way to ensure that the vehicle will be safe if it is involved in an accident. GM did a great job designing the spaceframe to crush in the event of a collision - do not compromise the design! It's a LOT of work. A lot! After painting and seam-sealing, it is virtually impossible to tell the spaceframe has been repaired. Did I mention that it's a lot of work?
And, based on the pics you provided, I would suggest you find another car. From my experience, yours is terminal. Sorry for your loss.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 08-17-2018).]
Currently I'm in the process of repairing my upper frame rails. It takes time and patience for sure. I also have many factors working for me to taking on this project. It's a T-top car, I have a welder/plasma cutter/air compressor, and I had a front wrecked parts car with rust free rails. A donor parts car that you can obtain rails from is probably your best bet.
If the rear is bad then have to check the rest of car. Very likely have rust damage for front end etc and may not be easy to see/feel w/o taking somethings apart. Big issue is the rust you see isn't only damage you have. The frame often rust from inside out and may look good to you the metal is often so thin and very weak from hidden rust. Before wheel lifts and flatbeds became common, rust problems are so common in many places many Tow drivers and others hit the frame w/ a hammer before attaching hooks to an areas. Iffy sounds or easy dents mean big trouble to chain down or host a car. (Unlike fishing, Tow Drivers can get Big Fines or even Jail time loosing a hooked car.)
Can you fix above etc? Yes/No/Maybe. Easy? If is cradle is bad get another but anything else Not a chance. Cheap? Not really and Most people can't pay for a frame shop repair. Note: In some state's bad and poorly repaired frames can fail inspections because they put the car on a lift and look for this, brakes, etc.
Frame repair need to be tough but not too strong because front and rear sections are made to be crush zones in a wreck. Many crash test on YT shows some of why but missing data because how those test were done 30+ years ago. (In fact Many new vehicles today have a hard time "passing" IIHS and/or DOT current testing like newer offset front hit that IIHS uses.)
Example: If repair tube above is too strong... can be push thru firewall when hit and hurt/kill you. A repair Too weak and whole rear of the car can twist and worse when you turn, hitting potholes, and so on and fail over time or break outright w/o warning.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
one question on replacing the frame rail with solid tube, aren't the holes in the frame rail to allow it to crush in a rear impact? Not that I plan on getting rear ended, but that is how my 87GT died
Edit: looks like the ogre got it posted before I asked. ------------------ -Brian
I can't imagine doing this much work (and having the likelihood for even a moderate amount of materials expense even if you are doing the labor) only to salvage a car that is almost certainly worth less than $3000. Especially with a pending swap.
I know this is a smack in the face when you were looking forward to fixing the car up. But, take a deep breath, consider the options . . . and part that b!tch out. Use the funds to buy a rust-free example and do your swap.
[This message has been edited by USMUCL (edited 08-17-2018).]
