In my search for a Fiero I have noticed I find many more 87 year models in great condition and at a better price than 88 models. I was dead set on getting an 88 because I always read it is the best year but I am now considering giving the 87 a chance as well. Could you explain the differences between those model years? I know 88 got the upgraded suspension but is that it? Are the engines the same (one not better designed than the other?). Is reliability equal across both? I’d appreciate any knowledge you could share on this topic, thank you.
The 88 GT has an improved handling and suspension system, different brakes, uses front bearing hubs, a different cradle and as a one year model is rarer and more expensive to buy. The upholstery pattern is also different. My opinion is that with the addition of a rear sway bar or stronger Adcco matched set the 87's will perform nearly as well as the 88. The engine is basically the same 85-88 with minor differences to the exhaust and cooling tubes on the 88.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-24-2018).]
Hello, to add to Dennis's reply, all 4 brake rotors are vented 10.5" and the steering rack no longer has a damper and with a slightly better ratio of 19:1 as opposed to 23:1 on the 85-87 V6 models. Front suspension arms are 25% longer with improved geometry but non-serviceable wheel bearings (Damn!) Rear suspension is 2 lateral links and a trailing arm per side with a meaty anti roll bar. Previous models have upper and lower wishbones with no anti roll bar. Gearbox and final drive ratios are the same for the Getrag 5 speed. Hope that helps clear it up a bit more. Rock that Fiero man!
Thanks for the replies. So from what I can see, the major differences are the brakes and suspension pieces. Are the 87 models easier to maintenance just because of greater parts availability (the 88 has one year only pieces that may be hard to find)? To be clear, I want this car to drive regularly with decent gas mileage, not looking to engine swap for more power or make it a race car, I have other options for that. Looking for an auto (I know) as well, so not sure if there’s a difference between years for that. For my purposes do you think I would really notice the differences in years? Thanks again.
There is so much information in this thread that is wrong, so, to set the record straight.....
Front and rear suspension are completely different, although the front suspension bushings are the same dimension for all year Fieros. All Fieros use the same rear struts, front shocks are different. The braking system is very different; larger, ventilated rotors and different calipers on the 88. The 88 front hubs are unique to the 88 Fiero. Replacements are available, but not easy to find. The upside is the OEM hubs are good for 150K+ miles unless you get crazy with front rubber and driving habits. Rear hubs are all the same, and they are typically the ones that wear out. Readily available. 88 V-6 has improved oiling and is internally balanced, the flywheel/flexplate is different than earlier V-6 engines. Front 15" 88 wheels were 6 inches wide; but all year Fiero 14" wheels have the same offset and width. Pre-88 Fieros did not have an upper control arm in the rear, they used a lower control arm, strut and toe-link. There was no rear sway bar on any pre-88 Fiero; all 88 V-6 Fieros had a rear bar.
Having owned and driven over 150K miles in both models, the 88 is a much better car in all respects under all driving conditions. There is no comparison.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 09-23-2018).]
So seems like the 88 really is the best year if you’re looking for an all around performer, having second thoughts about considering an 86/87 Fiero now.
Actually found an 88 recently, seller’s description says engine/trans have been rebuilt 4K miles ago, miles are all from a trip from California to Florida. Says front and rear suspension cradles have been dropped, powder coated black and new urethane bushings have been installed. However, the bad news I can see is that the odometer reads 195,000 miles on the car...so what do you guys think? Would it be a good idea to consider moving in on this one, does the maintenance by the PO offset all those miles? Would appreciate input and advice.
Originally posted by chaotichamster9: However, the bad news I can see is that the odometer reads 195,000 miles on the car...so what do you guys think? Would it be a good idea to consider moving in on this one, does the maintenance by the PO offset all those miles?
Mileage on a used car is irrelevant.
What matters is the present condition of a used car for sale... not the path the car took to end up in its present state.
Evaluate the present condition of the Fiero for sale, and decide if it's good enough for you. Ideally, bring along a friend who knows Fieros, if available.
I made a used Fiero inspection checklist... it is not perfect (some items might not be clear to other people), but it's what I used last time I was shopping for a Fiero: https://www.fieromontreal.c...85.msg33022#msg33022
Filling out the checklist (and generally inspecting the car) took about 40 minutes. When you have the list of issues written down on paper, it becomes easier to compare cars.
...the odometer reads 195,000 miles on the car...so what do you guys think? Would it be a good idea to consider moving in on this one, does the maintenance by the PO offset all those miles?
IMO, rust (or the lack thereof) is much more critical than miles. Gotta check those rear upper frame rails. So many people post here after they've bought a Fiero... when they've discovered that it's rotted and (basically) worthless.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-23-2018).]
Another item is that the 88 steering rack uses plastic or perhaps a nylon bushing. Earlier racks used a metal bushing. It looks like many of the items on the differences have been covered so its up to you to decide whether the higher costs of the 88 is worth it to you.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Since this comes up a lot, I've saved a lot of the responses from past discussions. I own an 88 Formula, and have driven nothing else, so I really can't comment directly on the differences. Here's the list I've compiled:
88 Model Year changes
Available in two models (Coupe and GT)
Introduction of "Formula" option on Coupe (with V6 engine, and WS6 suspension package)
T-top option
Completely redesigned independent front and rear suspension systems
Revised four-wheel disc brake system (vented discs front and rear)
Gold or Black diamond-spoke cast alum wheels available on GT
Hi-tech Turbo cast aluminum wheels standard on Coupe
Interior trim upgrade - Pallex cloth (standard on Coupe and Formula)
Interior trim upgrade - Metrix cloth (standard on GT)
Introduction of new Camel interior Trim color
Monochromatic exterior color scheme on all GT models
New exterior color Bright Yellow (available mid-year)
WS6 performance suspension package standard on Formula and GT
Engine:
Balance shaft design incorporated for 2.5L Engine
2.8 V6 engine becomes internally balanced, with different flywheel/flexplate and crankshaft.
"CS style" alternator, which eliminated need for alternator cooling system
2.8L V6 HP rating drops from 140 to 135, although most believe that the HP stayed the same, only the rating was changed (maybe due to emissions).
Intake plenum engraved with "Fiero", replacing "Fiero" sticker.
Heat shielding is different on the exhaust crossover (a.k.a. "Y" pipe), and the crossover itself is different as is the rest of the exhaust system.
The exhaust tip length is different than previous year models.
The EGR tube is different, with a metal corrugated heat shield instead of the sewn blanket.
There is no shield on the alternator, instead it's on the manifold.
The alternator is different, smaller with internal fan.
An additional spark plug wire loom bracket is in the V where the throttle cable stop bolts to the upper plenum.
Front Suspension:
30% shorter spindle length (90 to 64mm)
30% shorter scrub radius (49 to 35mm)
20% reduction in king pin angle (7 degrees to 6 degrees)
20% longer upper control arm length (177 to 214.2mm)
25% longer lower control arm length (280 to 350mm)
Elimination of the steering damper assembly (due to shorter scrub radius)
Larger stabilizer bar (22 to 28mm)
12% shorter turning radius (11.4 to 10.2m)
Anti-dive suspension geometry, which resists nosedive under braking.
Rear Suspension:
Revised chassis cradle design (solid mount to chassis) for suspension attachments
New tri-link design allowing for specific tuning of each component
Increased rearward rear wheel motion with jounce for reduced impact harshness
Lower spring rates (44N/mm to 25N/mm)
Inclusion of 22mm rear stabilizer bar with the WS6 suspension package
Driving:
The upgrades to the suspension and brakes result in:
- Improved roll steer. (the tendency of a vehicle to change lines as it leans over in a corner)
- Improved bump steer. (the tendency of a vehicle to change directions as a result of hitting a bump or dip)
- Decrease in steering wheel kickback while braking over bumps.
- Better stability on bumpy or uneven surfaces while accelerating, braking or cruising, in a straight line or while cornering.
- Improved NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). Not sure about noise & vibration, but the suspension was softened a lot, so harshness definitely improved.
- Better predictability at the handling limits. Total grip did not change (skid pad numbers are unchanged), but now more of that grip is usable on less-than-perfect (i.e. real world) surfaces.
- Improved braking (less fade, better traction on bumpy or uneven surfaces)
- Improved (less) nosedive under braking.
- Less steering effort.
1. Heat shielding is different on the exhaust crossover, and the crossover itself is different as is the rest of the exhaust system. 2. The exhaust tip length is different than previous year models. 3. The EGR tube is different, with a metal corrugated heat shield instead of the sewn blanket. 4. There is no shield on the alternator, instead it's on the manifold. 5. The alternator is different, smaller with internal fan. 6. An additional spark plug wire loom bracket is in the V where the throttle cable stop bolts to the upper plenum. 7. The engine is internally balanced, different flywheel/flexplate and crankshaft.
The "anti-radio-noise" suppression material is different - on the 88s its built into the decklid plastic, while the earlier cars have a metal grid attached to the underside that serves this purpose. The material was mixed, or baked, into the reinforced plastic material the decklid was made out of. Its something like Nickel Coated graphite.
[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 09-27-2018).]
Wow, lots of great information here thank you. Talking to the P.O. about the condition of the brake system and he’s saying he’s “upgraded to the S10 brake booster”...is that a common upgrade or one that rings any bells?
Also wanted to mention that my max budget on one of these 88s would be 6000 for one that I can just start driving now with minimal repairs if any. Does that sound realistic? When I first began focusing on finding one I didn’t expect prices to vary as widely as I’ve now seen.
The S10 brake booster upgrade is somewhat common. Some think that the braking system is weak, and is in need of a bigger booster. Mine works fine with the OEM booster. I think that if everything is working correctly, the bigger booster is not needed. However, even with everything working properly, the brake pedal effort required is higher than most cars, so this upgrade makes the brakes more like other cars. Now if the braking performance is still iffy with the bigger booster, then something's definitely wrong. With an S10 booster, you should be able to easily lock the wheels.
$6000 should get you an 88 in very good condition.
Ok so the brakes sound like a nice upgrade, if done right of course. In general if you can find one in good shape to begin with how are these Fieros when it comes to reliabilty? Was speaking to a mechanic friend of mine and he was saying beware but I believe it was in reference to first year 4 cylinder models.
Yes I figured that would be substantial enough to find a nice one. Seller wants $7500 so hoping a deal can be made, that’s just too much for me.
Ok so the brakes sound like a nice upgrade, if done right of course. In general if you can find one in good shape to begin with how are these Fieros when it comes to reliabilty? Was speaking to a mechanic friend of mine and he was saying beware but I believe it was in reference to first year 4 cylinder models.
Yes I figured that would be substantial enough to find a nice one. Seller wants $7500 so hoping a deal can be made, that’s just too much for me.
Reliability is 80's vintage GM. And it's mid-engine to boot. If you stay on top of maintenance and repairs, it's not bad. I finally have mine to a point where I feel it's fairly reliable. BUT... I have added things to my maintenance schedule. Like the pickup coil. I've had two fail. I now replace it whenever I replace spark plugs (every 30K miles). Also whenever I do this, I remove the ignition module, clean it off, and apply fresh heat sink grease. And I apply dielectric grease to the electrical connections. I haven't had an ignition module problem since I started doing this, which was at least 10 yrs ago. And whenever it gets 1.1 qts low on oil, you will start losing oil pressure. If you never let your oil get low, you won't have a problem. But if you take care of it like most people who bought GM's in the 80's, you will have problems. And whenever the check engine light comes on, I get it fixed ASAP. A faulty sensor could cause an incorrect A/F ratio, which could burn up a catalytic converter in short order. This is true for any car. However, with the Fiero, the catalytic converter is right next to the engine, right next to the starter and A/C compressor. Any condition that would cause the cat to "burn up" would cause excessive heat in an area that could cause problems. Take care it quickly, and no long term problems will occur. Ignore it for a while (again, like many do), and it will come back to bite you in a Fiero. The engine bay runs hotter than most cars, so problems need to be taken care of quickly.
$7500 is a lot for a Fiero. It would need to be in VERY good condition with low miles for that price. Or... it would need to be a very rare combination of options. Like a yellow t-top 5-speed with leather seats.
[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 09-24-2018).]
Appreciate the advice, I asked the PO for the name of the shop that did the engine/tranny rebuild and he showed me the receipt but wouldn’t tell me the name (it’s not on the receipt either) so that was a bit concerning. Receipt says the job was done back in 2009 in CA and the brand was “ATK”...anyone heard of them?
Still feeling this one out, it is a white 88 GT, would prefer yellow or red but you can’t have it all, may be going to check it out in person soon.
Reliability is 80's vintage GM. And it's mid-engine to boot. If you stay on top of maintenance and repairs, it's not bad. I finally have mine to a point where I feel it's fairly reliable. BUT... I have added things to my maintenance schedule. Like the pickup coil. I've had two fail. I now replace it whenever I replace spark plugs (every 30K miles). Also whenever I do this, I remove the ignition module, clean it off, and apply fresh heat sink grease. And I apply dielectric grease to the electrical connections. I haven't had an ignition module problem since I started doing this, which was at least 10 yrs ago. And whenever it gets 1.1 qts low on oil, you will start losing oil pressure. If you never let your oil get low, you won't have a problem. But if you take care of it like most people who bought GM's in the 80's, you will have problems. And whenever the check engine light comes on, I get it fixed ASAP. A faulty sensor could cause an incorrect A/F ratio, which could burn up a catalytic converter in short order. This is true for any car. However, with the Fiero, the catalytic converter is right next to the engine, right next to the starter and A/C compressor. Any condition that would cause the cat to "burn up" would cause excessive heat in an area that could cause problems. Take care it quickly, and no long term problems will occur. Ignore it for a while (again, like many do), and it will come back to bite you in a Fiero. The engine bay runs hotter than most cars, so problems need to be taken care of quickly.
$7500 is a lot for a Fiero. It would need to be in VERY good condition with low miles for that price. Or... it would need to be a very rare combination of options. Like a yellow t-top 5-speed with leather seats.
Been doing some research on ATK engines and reviews are...mixed to say the least. Any others with opinions or experience with these engines/transmissions?
In talks with the P.O. he also states he’s upgraded to a 4 core radiator, I assume this will help the car to run cooler and result in less heat strain on vital electrical components you all have mentioned to me above. Sounds good, if anyone has done this please share your results. Thanks again.
Originally posted by chaotichamster9: In talks with the P.O. he also states he’s upgraded to a 4 core radiator, I assume this will help the car to run cooler and result in less heat strain on vital electrical components you all have mentioned to me above. Sounds good, if anyone has done this please share your results. Thanks again.
It won't hurt, but IMO again, if everything is working properly, it's not needed. Last week, I went on the GA Fiero Club's Run For The Hills. That's a pretty full day of blasting though some nice mountain roads. Much of it spent at throttle settings above 50%. My radiator is stock, and the only time my temp gauge budged off it's normal point was right after a wide open blast up a long steep climb. The rest of the day... it ran right at the temperature of the thermostat. My engine is stock. If the engine has any mods, or if you're planning any track days, then a 4 core radiator might help.
Hey all I have an update. Received a large amount of pictures from the P.O. and the Fiero looks in very good shape...but there was one picture that concerned me, I will include it here. It is the bottom of the small trunk, the rug appears to be stained. I know this is a trouble spot for rust. What do you guys think?
Making arrangements to go see the car this weekend, in the process of finding a good shop to bring it in for inspection. Trunk
[This message has been edited by chaotichamster9 (edited 09-25-2018).]
I have what is probably a fairly rare perspective. I owned both an 87 and an 88 GT at the same time. The 87 had been tweaked (by me) on the handling side. The 88 was still significantly better and after I tweaked it, was much better than the already improved 87. No comparison in my view. Buy an 88 or regret it for ever after, wondering what you missed out on for a few bucks.
...the bottom of the small trunk, the rug appears to be stained. I know this is a trouble spot for rust.
That's not the "trouble spot". Have a look at This thread.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
IMO, rust (or the lack thereof) is much more critical than miles. Gotta check those rear upper frame rails. So many people post here after they've bought a Fiero... when they've discovered that it's rotted and (basically) worthless.
Peel the truck carpet back to see if there is any rust under the carpet, especially near the corners of the trunk. Very important. Any rust coming through there, be suspect of frame rail rust under the plastic panels.
Carpet stain is probably nothing. The spoiler bolt holes tend to leak when it rains. Peel the carpet back to see what the metal looks like there. Lots of threads on the subject here.
------------------ "Discord" Red 1988 GT under restoration!
Appreciate the references for this potential rust under the carpet, will read up and hope for the best. Can you tell from underneath the car if you get it on a lift or only by pulling back the carpet?
P.O. sent other photos of engine compartment, I see a section above a black housing that appears a bit damp, not sure what it could be, I believe it is in the section beneath where the air intake hose to the side of the car goes (top of transmission?) Attaching the photo here, any idea what it could be? Wet spot
Can you tell from underneath the car if you get it on a lift or only by pulling back the carpet?
Neither. As shown in numerous threads here (including the one I previously linked to), to view the rear upper frame rails, the rear plastic wheel well liners need to be removed (or at least partly unscrewed and pulled aside).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-26-2018).]
P.O. sent pictures of underneath with car on a lift, looks ok. I asked about the title, he says it’s clean but an open title. Asked why he didn’t put it in his name, immediately got defensive and wouldn’t give a reason. Unfortunately looks like this is going south.
Originally posted by chaotichamster9:says it’s clean but an open title. Asked why he didn’t put it in his name, immediately got defensive and wouldn’t give a reason.
At least the warning signals are obvious, avoid this seller!
Given the rarity of Fieros, it may take several months to find the right one; be patient.
quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner: Intake plenum engraved with "Fiero", replacing "Fiero" sticker.
That wasn't new to model year 88.
85-86 had the sticker, 87-88 had the cast Fiero lettering.
P.O. sent pictures of underneath with car on a lift, looks ok. I asked about the title, he says it’s clean but an open title. Asked why he didn’t put it in his name, immediately got defensive and wouldn’t give a reason. Unfortunately looks like this is going south.
Yeah, pretty disappointing really, car looked to be in great shape. He told me he had the car for only like 3 months so that was fishy as well.
Since this turn of events I’ve re-evaluated my search and I’m considering going for a 5 speed manual, I’ve read it is the key to better mpg and performance from these cars. I’ve actually found one at a big Chevrolet dealer, considering taking a look. Could be naive of me, but if a big dealership like that is selling it perhaps I don’t have to worry so much about it being in bad shape compared to buying from a private seller?
Originally posted by chaotichamster9: I’m considering going for a 5 speed manual, I’ve read it is the key to better mpg and performance from these cars.
I didn't realize that the one in question here was an automatic. I HIGHLY recommend a manual for these cars. Forget mpg and performance. You can get more of that with other cars. A 5-speed is just more fun. Well, except when you're in stop-n-go traffic.
Have gotten pictures of the manual transmission Fiero I mentioned. Attaching pictures of the engine compartment. Looks like there is a light blue wire running along the side, perhaps being grounded to something. Does anyone have any idea what this wire could be? Don’t recall seeing it in others I’ve looked at. Wire
Definitely a ground wire. The PCV system and cold air intake look pretty jakey..... And the strut tower brace is useless bling (rusty, missing chrome bling)....
Definitely a ground wire. The PCV system and cold air intake look pretty jakey..... And the strut tower brace is useless bling (rusty, missing chrome bling)....
Yep figured it was a ground wire, maybe for sound system. Where exactly is the PCV system? And does the intake look like it was installed incorrectly? Attaching more pictures of that area.
Looks like there is a light blue wire running along the side, perhaps being grounded to something.
Sure doesn't look "light blue" on my monitor. Does it actually connect to something underneath that insulation, or does the wire simply connect/ground the decklid hinge to the strut tower?
There's also a green ground wire attached to the hinge.
Does it actually connect to something underneath that insulation, or does the wire simply connect/ground the decklid hinge to the strut tower?
