After several relatively trouble free years with my F40/ 86 Fiero here in Mazatlan, I have run into an issue with alignment. The only place I found here with an old school alignment rack has disappeared. All the new machines do not have programs for my old car, and will not attempt to align it on their racks. i am trying to align the car myself now. Problem: the car wanders, and I am correcting all the time to keep it straight. I am trying to establish a center point for the chassis of the car in order to measure the front toe readings, and am confused. I assumed the right and left suspension arms are the same length. ( I took the front pivot a arm bolt on each side and halved the distance to get a center point on the chassis.) I have come up with readings that indicate the driver's side from center to rotor is longer than the same measurement for the passenger side. IS this normal? My current toe readings with the problem have 0 toe out or in, but I have no idea if the wheels are in straight alignment with the chassis. Hence the procedure I am attempting.Any suggestions or help would be appreciated! Thanks, Steve
Hey Steve, are your inner and outer tie rods all tight and in good condition? If the car was good before and now wanders, it could be that these components are worn and loose. This will cause the symptoms you describe. The inners require a special tool to replace but not that difficult when you have it. Rear toe issues can cause strange behavior as well. Jack that front end up and see if you can wiggle either wheel toe in toe out. If there is any slop you need new parts.
"I am trying to establish a center point for the chassis of the car in order to measure the front toe readings, and am confused..." So you follow what directions exactly? Because Many YT and other internet directions are worthless. Front Toe just use a trammel bar/rod and isn't ref to car center line. DIY Can make them. Rear Toe is harder and done wrong often affect Thrust Angle of the whole car. F'd TA will make crabbing down the road and often fake crooked steering wheel. Front Camber and Caster affected UBJ and Washers in UCA pivot bolts. See my Cave, Control Arms
DIY poorly performing an alignment can be anything causing any number of problems. 2 big ones... 1. You can have perfect alignment even on old or new "Pro" machines and still wander etc when driving because of just 1 crappy bushing allow this to happen. 2. You can have perfect alignment and car have everything perfect too and still wander etc when driving because of the roads you drive on. Worn roads often have ruts and make steering wandering or worse. Ruts you may not see can still cause same issue. Even good roads with steep crown can make any car to drive off the road.
IOW First mistake was trying DIY alignment Before you check/fix the car and looking at the roads. Any iffy Control Arm bushing will make this problem but other things can do this too like 84-87 Fiero cradle bushings. Iffy ball joint(s) or crap tire(s) won't help. That's w/ a stock Fiero. If you modified the suspension OE alignment spec's often are void for 1 or more values. When Mod'ed, You're hoping the alignment specs doesn't wear out the tires fast.
Most Roads after 4-7 years have some rutting from truck traffic. Rutting makes uneven tire loads and tires will try to find = load across thread width. On Multi-lane roads the crown can make the cars to self steer to the edge depending what lane your in. Say 3 lane to pick... Often left lane pushes to left, Right lane pushes to right, but center can to either, both or neither depending how the road is made to drain rain water off the road and other issues for road builders for a given section of that road. Some steel deck bridges can be a big pain too. Deck and many tire designs don't play well and iffy alignment makes this way worse. Many cars w/ PS hind these issues but Fiero and others w/o PS can be a lot harder to stop wandering or self steer from the roads and bridges. One draw bridge near me hate most cars I've driven over it in 30+ years and far worse for Non PS ones even at or under 25mph speed limit there.
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Originally posted by fierofool: Ask your alignment shop if they will set it to specifications that you provide. If they will, here's a chart with the specs.
I doubt most can read the spec's poorly copied from my Cave, Alignment Spec's Most in the US w/ Bear and other Computerize Machines can't read them either and Bear et al Does Not have updated spec's for Fiero either. Most shops don't even look for problems if machine said good alignment. Last shop I went had to return twice because took 3 times to get alignment to Bear specs and the "tech" had no clue how to read GM OE or Updated spec's that cave page is based on.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
One of our members installed a Coates alignment rack in his shop a year or two ago and it had Fiero specs in it's programming. One might ask a prospective alignment shop what equipment they have.
Thanks for the input! Front suspension bushings are new poly, tie rod ends replaced. Ball joints appear solid. The roads I am driving it on are the same as always, and do not present problems for my other cars. I have not got at the rear suspension yet, but will. Just curious though still: to DIY would it not make sense to determine toe on each front wheel, by measuring the front and back of the wheel from a chassis centrepoint, to find out how the toe on the wheel is in relation to the straight line direction of the car?
I replaced all of the bushings on the front end and rear of my 1986 except for the cradle bushings with polyurethane. The car was good in the curves but would wander in a straight line. I then did the cradle bushings in polyurethane and it made a world of difference. I would try the cradle bushings next. I had trouble finding a decent shop and used Mavis, not sure they have those where you are. I also had them set the caster at maximum recommended at 7 degrees.
Just a final update on this: I ended up doing a string allignment as proposed here on this forum. When I got the car settled on jack stands, and started wiggling stuff around, I discovered the passenger rear wheel was wobbling! I thought wheel bearing, but discovered the three bolts that attach the hub to the rear strut had come loose, and there was a LOT of play there. I am sure this is the cause for my car wandering all over the road. Did the allignment anyway- a bit time consuming, but made a lot of significant adjustments. Now for a road test...... Thanks for all the input!! Steve
Just an FYI, Firestone stores offer a lifetime alignment for $200. I got one about 3-4 years ago when I knew I was going to replace front suspension parts over time. Have had my car back there several times since. It has been a great deal for me saving me a lot of money.
A couple of things to keep in mind- Some tires will cause all kinds of problems with wander or following the road grooves...especially the "Chinese special" tires that you can get cheap.
Also, if you lose the gas pressure from one of your rear struts, the car will do a very odd thing- it will pull to one side when accelerating, and to the other when cutting the throttle...I was trying to figure out what was causing this and noticed fluid dripping from one of my "Coil-over" modified struts...replaced it and the problem went away.
Well, I am a bit disappointed! After two afternoons doing a string allignment quite meticulously, checking all bushings etc, my test ride was frightening, to say the least! Accelerating causes the car to "torque steer" in one direction, and backing off seems to make it go the other way. And the car is extremely twitchy, with constant correction at the steering wheel to keep it straight. Just for reference, this is an F40 replica on an 86 chassis. The tires are 245/40 R16 front, and 315/40 16 on the rear. I am going to do another attempt at the allignment, as I have all summer off to play with it anyway. The front springs were, I believe cut to lower the car, before I bought it. They have almost O movement to prevent the tires from contacting the body. ( rides harsh on our concreted, segmented roads here) The rears are softer, with a fair bit of travel . Bear in mind this car ran and drove perfectly for the last five years- the twitchy mess is a new development. I see no evidence of leaking struts or shocks.
Well, I am a bit disappointed! After two afternoons doing a string allignment quite meticulously, checking all bushings etc, my test ride was frightening, to say the least! Accelerating causes the car to "torque steer" in one direction, and backing off seems to make it go the other way. And the car is extremely twitchy, with constant correction at the steering wheel to keep it straight. Just for reference, this is an F40 replica on an 86 chassis. The tires are 245/40 R16 front, and 315/40 16 on the rear. I am going to do another attempt at the allignment, as I have all summer off to play with it anyway. The front springs were, I believe cut to lower the car, before I bought it. They have almost O movement to prevent the tires from contacting the body. ( rides harsh on our concreted, segmented roads here) The rears are softer, with a fair bit of travel . Bear in mind this car ran and drove perfectly for the last five years- the twitchy mess is a new development. I see no evidence of leaking struts or shocks.
The big bolts that hold the strut/spring to the rear knuckle need to be torqued to 140lbs. This has been missed a lot by people that think just tightening by hand is good enough.
A final note on this... I did another string allignment as suggested on this forum; paying extreme attention to my setup measurements. Took about two hours to get things right. I found out my previous procedure, where I did not pay meticulous attention had not produced the proper settings, especially on the rear wheels. This time around, after significant correction, the car handles perfect!! Now that I know how, and have made a few basic tools to do this, I would never bother with an alignment shop again ( even if they had a good one here. ) Thankyou to everyone that offered suggestions, including the original poster that suggested how to do this. Also interesting all the other small things that I found while doing this! These are old cars, and stuff is always needing attention or checking! Cheers, Steve
A final note on this... I did another string allignment as suggested on this forum; paying extreme attention to my setup measurements. Took about two hours to get things right. I found out my previous procedure, where I did not pay meticulous attention had not produced the proper settings, especially on the rear wheels. This time around, after significant correction, the car handles perfect!! Now that I know how, and have made a few basic tools to do this, I would never bother with an alignment shop again ( even if they had a good one here. ) Thankyou to everyone that offered suggestions, including the original poster that suggested how to do this. Also interesting all the other small things that I found while doing this! These are old cars, and stuff is always needing attention or checking! Cheers, Steve
