Years ago I blew the engine on my 2006 SE I4 going up a mountain in northern Nova Scotia. To my wife's considerable chagrin, it's been in our garage since I towed it back to New York. I recently bought a 1984 2M4 with 4-sp manual in good condition (except for weathered paint) with 34K miles on it - and promptly blew its motor driving it the short distance home.
I intend to begin an LX9 3500 swap this coming fall and have been studiously reading everything I can on the subject online. I want to use a stock PCM from a 2005 Pontiac G6 # 12591279 as it was used in both LX9 3500/auto and LZ9 3900/auto or non-electronic manual vehicles as I will be using the 2M4's 4-sp transmission for now. I wish to preserve some BCM-based options such as cruise control and A/C. I also wish to switch from the DBW throttle to a cable-operated, larger throttle body. (No, I do not wish to swap an LZ9 3900 or a 3800SC instead)
PCMPerformance states on their website that they work with this G6 PCM and can set custom options on it ( https://www.pcmperformance....mming.html#SUPPORTED ). However, they claim a steep price for their services at a stated $400. Much of the available reading on PCM options and programming is rather dated. I'm sure that the art has progressed since, but I can't find much beyond either regressing to the 3400 engine's control system and hardware and, of course, the inevitable 3800SC advocacy comments.
Has anyone accomplished an LX9 3500 swap using a 2005 Pontiac G6 PCM? Can anyone recommend a source for reprogramming same at a reasonable cost? Any helpful advice on accomplishing this swap this way?
My intention is to leave the LX9 as stock as possible and perhaps reserve an option to experiment with adding a turbo in the future if I feel masochistic enough.
My first task will be to dismantle and dispose of the resulting remains of the '86 2M4 that occupies our garage to preserve domestic tranquility
I appreciate in advance any helpful input on this project.
Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 07-24-2019).]
Welcome to the forum, Steve. I'm one of the resident "tuners" here. Let me see if I can answer your questions...
According to my information, the 3500 LX9 was only produced for 3 model years (2004-2006) and it was the only version of 3.5L (3500) to not have VVT (variable valve timing).
Of the three main companies that make custom tuning software that works with OBD2 GM car/truck V6 ECMs and PCMs (Tunercat, HP Tuners, and EFI Live), NOBODY officially supports any LX9 computer. However, I found that HP Tuners "unofficially" supports the 2005 Chevy Uplander LX9 computer. That being said, it is unclear if HP Tuners can disable VATS in this system (which is going to be essential for any swap unless you want to also install the BCM and VATS system from the donor vehicle into your Fiero).
You also cannot switch to a cable-op throttle body if you intend to use a DBW computer (such as the 12591279 computer you cited). These newer OBD2 V6 computers will only work with a DBW (drive-by-wire) throttle body. If you want to use a cable-op throttle body on your LX9 engine, you would need to also use an older computer which is going to be a problem. The older computers are designed to work with an older type of crank sensor, reluctor, and ignition system than the LX9 and newer generation engines use. So in order to use an older computer that would permit the use of a cable-op TB, you would need to retrofit the LX9 with an older type crank trigger which would probably need to be a custom, external arrangement.
But before you go to the trouble of doing that, I think it might be worth exploring the possibility of getting the 05 Uplander LX9 computer programmed to work in your swap (using a DBW TB). While I offer custom tuning services (and I can use HP Tuners to tune an 05 Uplander LX9 computer), I can't guarantee I will be able to deactivate VATS in it nor can I guarantee I can make this computer work flawlessly with a manual transmission if we are limited to using the Uplander OS (because the Uplanders were never offered with manual transmissions).
-ryan
------------------ More is more. Less is not enough. Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-22-2019).]
Hello Darth. I've read many, many of your posts in my research. Thank you for responding. I am appropriately honored.
Per the AC Delco resource, I see that the ECU for the 2006 G6 3.9L manual transmission version is a different part number from my 2005 G6 3.5L. I also noticed that the auto and manual transmissions for the 2006 G6 3.9L are controlled by the same TCU part number. I take it that the ECU communicates with the TCM in the same manner regardless of the transmission options therein, but with differing data options communicated.
So with the same engine, the same PCU # works with either transmission type. For a manual transmission, the ECU needs at least an input from a transmission VSS, correct? (Please bear with me - I'm learning here)
So, to be proper, I would need to find an ECU from an LX9 equipped vehicle with a manual transmission, right? Only there were no LX9 vehicles with manual transmissions, I think, and the LX9 and LZ9 don't share ECU part numbers, true?
Is there any developed wizardry among the ECU reprogramming world to get around this conundrum?
Reading your prior reply, please note that the Uplander ECU is the same manufacturer part number that I've already obtained that is taken from a 2005 Pontiac G6 with LX9 & auto transmission: Part # 12591279. This is my starting point - unless, of course, I need to start with something else.
I also note that the VIN eighth digit for this and the rest of the 2005 GM LX9 minivans is "L", rather than "8" as for the non-minivan cars. I assume this denotes an exhaust and accessories difference to accommodate the minivan platform.
As to the VATS/BCM issue, I'm actually not averse to adapting my Fiero to a VATS pushbutton start system with the BCS's cruise control feature and A/C, too. It seems an interesting challenge and besides, my son - who is a certified Toyota master mechanic - has done the equivalent with his engine-swapped MR2. He does tuning for Toyota hardware, but is unfamiliar with and has not the equipment for GM stuff.
If all else fails, I will go with the 3400's system, but it seems a shame to go backward. Or, perhaps, I simply don't know better at this point. It seems a worthy windmill to charge at, though.
I would sincerely appreciate any helpful info I might glean before I get to the assembling hardware stage.
BTW, I'm in no hurry to complete this project. I'm retired and have all the time I'd need and spreading out the expense is a good thing. It's the journey that's the thing
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 07-24-2019).]
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: So in order to use an older computer that would permit the use of a cable-op TB, you would need to retrofit the LX9 with an older type crank trigger which would probably need to be a custom, external arrangement.
I don't see it on their website now, but WOT-Tech used to have an external 7x trigger wheel kit. I think EricJon262 on this forum is selling one right now.
quote
Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
I also note that the VIN eighth digit for this and the rest of the 2005 GM LX9 minivans is "L", rather than "8" as for the non-minivan cars. I assume this denotes an exhaust and accessories difference to accommodate the minivan platform.
The cars had manifolds set up for dual cats. The minivans use a cross-over pipe to a single rear outlet/catalyst similar to what the older cars ran. Minivan exhaust manifolds would be much easier to package in a Fiero engine bay.
Thanks for the reply. Milzy Motorsports advertises a complete 3500 swap solution using 3400 tech and appropriate parts at https://www.milzymotorsports.com/3500-swap/ . This is my fall-back solution.
Ideally, I'd like to use a 2005 ECU/PCM plus DBW pedal, BCM & TCM as needed to use the newer tech control system. I'd like to use a larger throttlebody, but don't yet see how I could do that if I keep the DBW system. This is a learning experiment project for me, inspired by my son's completed similar projects with Toyota MR2s. He, however, is a Toyota Master Mechanic and I am most definitely not.
I've seen the diff between the minivan and the car exhaust manifolds. I'm not up to doing a performance header set initially and may want to experiment later with a low psi turbo add-on for poops and giggles. One big exhaust pipe seems a useful path toward that, later.
Actually, it took me a while to get up the nerve to decide to swap a new motor into my '84 2M4 as I had historical plates on it and wanted to restore it to original condition. Minus the blown Iron Duke and the sunburned body paint, the car is in excellent condition with a pristine interior and almost no rust anywhere. It was in a barn for many years and I picked it up for $1,000 a couple years ago. I drove my other (now donor) Fiero for years and lots of miles around the Northeast and Canada and enjoyed it greatly. I also had a third Fiero, but that one tried to kill me. PO had swapped the 4-cyl that was on it when I bought it, but failed to properly torque one of the rear trailing arms. Not fun when it broke loose at 70 mph on the highway - Big, swooping "S" turns in traffic until I got it slowed down. Parked it, kicked the crap out of it and got rid of it shortly after. Had Fiero withdrawal for a time. Now retired and feeling well enough to play with another one. I will be dismantling the donor Fiero in my garage shortly for salvageable parts, if anyone needs stuff. It's a red 1986 Fiero SE 4 cylinder.
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 07-24-2019).]
Thanks for the reply. Milzy Motorsports advertises a complete 3500 swap solution using 3400 tech and appropriate parts at https://www.milzymotorsports.com/3500-swap/ . This is my fall-back solution.
Ideally, I'd like to use a 2005 ECU/PCM plus DBW pedal, BCM & TCM as needed to use the newer tech control system. I'd like to use a larger throttlebody, but don't yet see how I could do that if I keep the DBW system. This is a learning experiment project for me, inspired by my son's completed similar projects with Toyota MR2s. He, however, is a Toyota Master Mechanic and I am most definitely not.
I've seen the diff between the minivan and the car exhaust manifolds. I'm not up to doing a performance header set initially and may want to experiment later with a low psi turbo add-on for poops and giggles. One big exhaust pipe seems a useful path toward that, later.
Actually, it took me a while to get up the nerve to decide to swap a new motor into my '84 2M4 as I had historical plates on it and wanted to restore it to original condition. Minus the blown Iron Duke and the sunburned body paint, the car is in excellent condition with a pristine interior and almost no rust anywhere. It was in a barn for many years and I picked it up for $1,000 a couple years ago. I drove my other (now donor) Fiero for years and lots of miles around the Northeast and Canada and enjoyed it greatly. I also had a third Fiero, but that one tried to kill me. PO had swapped the 4-cyl that was on it when I bought it, but failed to properly torque one of the rear trailing arms. Not fun when it broke loose at 70 mph on the highway - Big, swooping "S" turns in traffic until I got it slowed down. Parked it, kicked the crap out of it and got rid of it shortly after. Had Fiero withdrawal for a time. Now retired and feeling well enough to play with another one. I will be dismantling the donor Fiero in my garage shortly for salvageable parts, if anyone needs stuff. It's a red 1986 Fiero SE 4 cylinder.
I'm all about using the stock computer, but in this instance, it's really not a great idea, there is almost no support for it, it really is the better option to use a 3400 PCM, a 7730/obd1, or megaquirt. FYI, MS3x, or an MS3 pro supports the stock LX9 trigger wheels, and coil per cylinder ignition. I would tell you to check out my build thread, but almost all the pictures are gone, and it's a bit out of date, my thread on RFT is much more up to speed though.
I'm not sure if the 60V6 forum is working again, but there's a few of us there who are pretty knowledgeable about these little engines.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Thanks for the reply. I believe I've read your build posts (and a number of others) and I'm aware of the 3400-tech LX9 adaptations approach. That is my fall-back alternative. Some of the relevant build posts with LX9 motors are a bit dated by now. I had hoped that the arcane art of ECU/PCM reprogramming might have advanced a bit since then.
I have noted that one or two sources are working with the 2005 G6/Uplander unit #12591279 and it would seem (from my logical but ignorant point of view), that this might be doable, provided that the appropriate settings for a Fiero installation are discernible. I'm not averse to experimentation, as long as a bright flash and a mushroom cloud are not a likely result.
At present, this is a thought experiment until I get my '86 donor car stripped and its remains disposed of. This must happen soon, though, in order to maintain 'domestic tranquility' here at the Mushynsky compound. Besides, I REALLY want to drive my black '84. Starting this upcoming Fall is my intent.
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
[This message has been edited by SteveMushynsky (edited 07-24-2019).]
if it is your fall back plan, pull the LX9 balancer, and install the 24x 3400 crank position sensor, and 3400 balancer while the engine is out. you'll need them to run the 3400 PCM.
you *MIGHT* be able to run the stock 3500 crank and cam sensor with the 3400 computer with some tricky programming. the only hang up might be that the program you would need to use looks for both a positive and negative 24x signal from the crank, it might work with only one, or, you might be able to chuck a LX5 crank position sensor(has dual pickups) in a lathe and turn it to fit the LX9 block to obtain the neg or pos signal. then you only need a DBC throttle which is kinda easy to adapt. I have yet to test any of that though, so it may or may not work, and it may only work with the stock cam and it's 175* reluctor.
all of that being said, GM engine management for V6's isn't well supported by anyone. got a V8, you can do whatever you want, a V6? too bad. some of the old school OBD1 guys have developed some crazy cool stuff, RobertSaar on 60v6 in particular was working towards SFI and flexfuel on OBD1 IIRC. the lack of support is my reason for ditching stock and going with an MS3pro, the world is available to me, everything from mild to wild, and all spelled out without any secrets, and being open source, guys are always making it better and better.
I'll leave you this closing statement, when I started work on my car 7 or 8 years ago, Emc209i on RFT told me not to re-invent the wheel, and I wish I had taken that more to heart. instead I let the build snowball from stock 3500 with a stock 4 speed manual, that I could have put together and driven that year, to a built turbo LX9 with a F23 five speed, and more custom/hard to find parts than you can shake a stick at, which resulted in me almost never driving the car. now, 8 years later, I'm having to sort through what all I have done right, what I did wrong, and I'm reverting a bunch of stuff back to more or less stock, because it's a known working condition, or throwing money at it like mad to make it right. you have two paths, a known, and a unknown, one you will be taught, and one will teach you, choose carefully.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
you *MIGHT* be able to run the stock 3500 crank and cam sensor with the 3400 computer with some tricky programming.
Actually, it is running an LX9 with stock crank and cam sensors with an LX9 computer # 12591279 in a Fiero with a non-electric manual that I am inquiring about, not with a 3400 computer.
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the lack of support is my reason for ditching stock and going with an MS3pro,
Understood, but investing well over $1,000+ into a Megasquirt custom engine management solution is not in my picture.
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you have two paths, a known, and a unknown, one you will be taught, and one will teach you, choose carefully.
Pardon. I'm sure you did not intend it to be so, but the above might come across as being a bit condescending in tone to a cranky old dude. I am but seeking progress in the hope that it will indeed teach me and in the process maybe teach others. If my goal turns out to be not possible at present, so be it. Sometimes though, tilting at windmills does bring positive results after all. One can only try.
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: Actually, it is running an LX9 with stock crank and cam sensors with an LX9 computer # 12591279 in a Fiero with a non-electric manual that I am inquiring about, not with a 3400 computer.
I understand I was just stating that there may be more options than just what was already there.
another tidbit that may be helpful eventually, the LX9 uses the same crank and cam timing reluctors as the LS1. however, the aftermarket camshafts match the 3400 reluctor, which is a single notch or tooth instead of the LS1's 175 degree reluctor. the LX9 cam reluctor works in the 3400 PCM programming, I would *GUESS* that the opposite is *NOT* true, because GM refered to the 175 degree design as "fast start" because the PCM could rapidly determine whether or not the engine was on #1 compression stroke, or #1 exhaust.
quote
Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
Understood, but investing well over $1,000+ into a Megasquirt custom engine management solution is not in my picture.
My reasons aren't yours but they may provide insight. I wanted boost control, flexfuel, SFI, and a host of other features that are either unavailable, or hard to tune in a GM computer. MS3 gives me all that and more.
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: Pardon. I'm sure you did not intend it to be so, but the above might come across as being a bit condescending in tone to a cranky old dude. I am but seeking progress in the hope that it will indeed teach me and in the process maybe teach others. If my goal turns out to be not possible at present, so be it. Sometimes though, tilting at windmills does bring positive results after all. One can only try.
Sometimes I have the attitude of a crotchety old dude... I've been called worse on this forum, I'll let you decide how to interpret it. it's true that one can only try, do you have any coding experience? I looked into it when I had the 3400PCM, it's a mess if you don't know what you're looking at.
another tidbit that may be helpful eventually, the LX9 uses the same crank and cam timing reluctors as the LS1. however, the aftermarket camshafts match the 3400 reluctor, which is a single notch or tooth instead of the LS1's 175 degree reluctor. the LX9 cam reluctor works in the 3400 PCM programming, I would *GUESS* that the opposite is *NOT* true, because GM refered to the 175 degree design as "fast start" because the PCM could rapidly determine whether or not the engine was on #1 compression stroke, or #1 exhaust.
Interesting tidbit... I didn't know GM used the 24x reluctor on the V6's... just for that one engine. Is there a cylinder select in an LS1 .bin that allows that software to run the LX9?
Interesting tidbit... I didn't know GM used the 24x reluctor on the V6's... just for that one engine. Is there a cylinder select in an LS1 .bin that allows that software to run the LX9?
for the longest time, I thought it was an oddball wheel, I Logged the wheel with my MS3x, and compared it to an LS1 wheel and they are dead nuts identical.
Most GM bin files I've looked at do, I would be surprised if this one didn't. it may also be worth looking into similarities between the stock LX9 code, and an LS1, considering they use the same reluctors. there's a slim chance the code is very similar.
Originally posted by ericjon262: Sometimes I have the attitude of a crotchety old dude... I've been called worse on this forum, I'll let you decide how to interpret it. it's true that one can only try, do you have any coding experience? I looked into it when I had the 3400PCM, it's a mess if you don't know what you're looking at.
I would be the "crotchety old dude" I tongue-in-cheek referred to. I would never presume to lay that label on someone else. At 67 years old, I am well into "get off my lawn" status if I don't squelch that tendency, myself
All of your responses are educational and very much appreciated. Knowing myself, I'll dig in and learn whatever I need to accomplish what I want to. It just takes longer. And I do need to keep expenditures in mind, lest I invest in too much expensive equipment I might never use again. I need to learn more so that I can find my preferred path. Thanks for your help.
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
ericjon262, I reread your build thread for your LX9 Fiero. I am agog at your tenacity and adeptness evident in all 47 pages of your build diary. Freaking amazing!
Is there a source for pinouts and code data options for the LX9 PCM # 12591279 ?
Given that GM seemed to have used code that included options beyond those needed for the cars that some PCMs were used in (ie: V6 PCMs that also included data options for 8 cylinder engines), is it possible/likely that options for boost applications might exist in this LX9 PCM as 'leftover' code adapted from other PCMs such as that for the 3800SC? Theorizing (or fantasizing) only.
Can this LX9 PCM 12591279 be reprogrammed? Apparently, the folks at https://www.pcmperformance.com/programming.html can work with this PCM for use in its original car. Whether they could or would work on one for use in a Fiero or with boost, I do not know. Any thoughts, anyone? Has anyone worked with these folks?
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
ericjon262, I reread your build thread for your LX9 Fiero. I am agog at your tenacity and adeptness evident in all 47 pages of your build diary. Freaking amazing!
thanks, I'm still at it, lots of mistakes have been made over the years, and I'm finally rectifying may of them, if there's a mistake involving a 3500 swap into a fiero, I've probably made it to some degree or another...
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky:
Is there a source for pinouts and code data options for the LX9 PCM # 12591279 ?
on autozone's website, there's a DIY page that has all sorts of wiring diagrams, it's pretty useful, you have to make an account, but it's free. you can search by vehicle.
Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: Given that GM seemed to have used code that included options beyond those needed for the cars that some PCMs were used in (ie: V6 PCMs that also included data options for 8 cylinder engines), is it possible/likely that options for boost applications might exist in this LX9 PCM as 'leftover' code adapted from other PCMs such as that for the 3800SC? Theorizing (or fantasizing) only.
I would doubt it. the gen 3 60v6 used a similar PCM to the 3800, and there were options in the programming for the L67 (3800sc) for engine type, and among other things, they had 2.5(china?), 3.1(LG4),3.4(LA1), 3.5(LX5), and 3.8(L67/NA version) I haven't seen anything in any of the V6 programs to suggest they also support V8's. the code is wildly different, which is very unfortunate for anyone trying to use a V6/not V8 engine. I could offer help if you were going to use a 3400/3800 PCM, but I don't have anything on the LX9 PCM. the LX9 on the other hand, uses it's own different sensor arrangement, more like an LS1, it would probably be more likely to run the engine on LS1 programming than LX9, in a standalone application like a fiero.
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: Can this LX9 PCM 12591279 be reprogrammed? Apparently, the folks at https://www.pcmperformance.com/programming.html can work with this PCM for use in its original car. Whether they could or would work on one for use in a Fiero or with boost, I do not know. Any thoughts, anyone? Has anyone worked with these folks?
anything can be reprogrammed, the problem is can the parameters you need changed, be changed? V8 guys(except northstar) have it easy, because everything has been hacked, V6 guys, not so much, and I have no idea about GM 4 cylinder stuff. it's the big reason why I recommend OBD1, or standalone, obd1 has been hacked to do some pretty cool stuff, unfortunately, the guys who still use/develop it are starting to thin out.
that being said, I have run a 3500, with the sensor arrangements of a 3400, on L67 programming, so many things are possible.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
the LX9 on the other hand, uses it's own different sensor arrangement, more like an LS1, it would probably be more likely to run the engine on LS1 programming than LX9, in a standalone application like a fiero.
LS1 PCM hardware can run a Northstar with just a switch of the "ignition type" parameter, so if there's a "cylinder select" it should be able to run a V6.
Interesting tidbit... I didn't know GM used the 24x reluctor on the V6's... just for that one engine. Is there a cylinder select in an LS1 .bin that allows that software to run the LX9?
FWIW... This jogged a memory for me. Tunercat is showing OBD2 Definition Files for 2001 through (early) 2007 GM trucks that they label as "LS1 truck". The same files cover 4.3 (V6), 4.8, 5.3, 6.0 and 8.1 engines.
Without digging, I don't know which PCMs these files support, but it would appear to at least settle whether the LS1 PCM would support a six cylinder. As I recall, my 4.3's cam timing was actually done through the distributor, which was NOT adjustable. Also, 4.3s and (at least) 4.8s were both also available with a manual trans, so there's that. (I actually thought about trying to swap an LS into my 2001 Sonoma, using the stock computer, but ended up selling it, instead.)
Anyway... this certainly doesn't answer all of the questions, but it may help to add a bit of confusion to the mix.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-02-2019).]
Originally posted by Raydar: FWIW... This jogged a memory for me. Tunercat is showing OBD2 Definition Files for 2001 through (early) 2007 GM trucks that they label as "LS1 truck". The same files cover 4.3 (V6), 4.8, 5.3, 6.0 and 8.1 engines.
Without digging, I don't know which PCMs these files support, but it would appear to at least settle whether the LS1 PCM would support a six cylinder. As I recall, my 4.3's cam timing was actually done through the distributor, which was NOT adjustable. (I actually thought about trying to swap an LS into my 2001 Sonoma, using the stock computer, but ended up selling it, instead.)
Anyway... this certainly doesn't answer all of the questions, but it may help to add a bit of confusion to the mix.
while this is true that they use the same computer, the hardware, as you point out, is wildly different, the crank and cam position reluctors are nothing alike between the obd2 Gen 1/2 V8's(including the 4.3), and the gen3+V8's. I won't say it's impossible, but I can't provide any concrete evidence as to whether it would work. if anyone wants to buy an LS1 definition file for me, I'll open up tunercat OBD2 and see what's in there.
while this is true that they use the same computer, the hardware, as you point out, is wildly different, the crank and cam position reluctors are nothing alike between the obd2 Gen 1/2 V8's(including the 4.3), and the gen3+V8's. I won't say it's impossible, but I can't provide any concrete evidence as to whether it would work. if anyone wants to buy an LS1 definition file for me, I'll open up tunercat OBD2 and see what's in there.
GM DIS ignition, which the Shelby .bin allows the 0411 computer to interface with, is functionally pretty similar to a distributor in terms of sending one trigger pulse per ignition event.
I just re-read your first post and have a few notes...
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: Years ago I blew the engine on my 2006 SE I4 going up a mountain in northern Nova Scotia. To my wife's considerable chagrin, it's been in our garage since I towed it back to New York. I recently bought a 1984 2M4 with 4-sp manual in good condition (except for weathered paint) with 34K miles on it - and promptly blew its motor driving it the short distance home.
Some early 4 speeds had a non ribbed case that was very weak, if the area around the differential is smooth, it might not hold up against an LX9. if it's the ribbed version, you'll be good to go, just use an 88 Fiero flywheel.
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: I intend to begin an LX9 3500 swap this coming fall and have been studiously reading everything I can on the subject online. I want to use a stock PCM from a 2005 Pontiac G6 # 12591279 as it was used in both LX9 3500/auto and LZ9 3900/auto or non-electronic manual vehicles as I will be using the 2M4's 4-sp transmission for now. I wish to preserve some BCM-based options such as cruise control and A/C. I also wish to switch from the DBW throttle to a cable-operated, larger throttle body. (No, I do not wish to swap an LZ9 3900 or a 3800SC instead)
I highly doubt you will be able to use a cable throttle with the G6 PCM, when GM made the switch to DBW, they began removing the hardware required for the IAC motor as the throttle could be adjusted by the PCM directly to control idle speed. The cruise control on these cars, was also handled by the DBW throttle, and either a cruise input to the PCM, or, a can bus signal from the BCM, the only hardware required to add CC to a non CC car nowadays, is a CC switch, the rest is software in the computer.
Also, the LX9 TB is about 65mm, without much room to grow bigger, you end up compromising the available sealing surface, and having potential for a large vacuum leak. a 65mm TB should be adequate for most stock headed engines.
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Originally posted by SteveMushynsky: PCMPerformance states on their website that they work with this G6 PCM and can set custom options on it ( https://www.pcmperformance....mming.html#SUPPORTED ). However, they claim a steep price for their services at a stated $400. Much of the available reading on PCM options and programming is rather dated. I'm sure that the art has progressed since, but I can't find much beyond either regressing to the 3400 engine's control system and hardware and, of course, the inevitable 3800SC advocacy comments.
Has anyone accomplished an LX9 3500 swap using a 2005 Pontiac G6 PCM? Can anyone recommend a source for reprogramming same at a reasonable cost? Any helpful advice on accomplishing this swap this way?
My intention is to leave the LX9 as stock as possible and perhaps reserve an option to experiment with adding a turbo in the future if I feel masochistic enough.
if you ever think you might turbo the engine, I would make a strong effort to pick an ECM/PCM that is known to work in a boosted application, the 3400 PCM has some interchange with the 3800, and the 3800 was available with forced induction. Your flexibility would be greatly improved with a 3400 PCM, or OBD1 even. the 3800 programming can run a 3500, I did it several years ago when I still had an interest in OBD2.
if you do decide to turbo it, you'll want new valvesprings, the stockers leave alot to be desired.
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 08-05-2019).]
Originally posted by ericjon262: Some early 4 speeds had a non ribbed case that was very weak, if the area around the differential is smooth, it might not hold up against an LX9. if it's the ribbed version, you'll be good to go, just use an 88 Fiero flywheel.
I will look into this re the 4spd I have. Thanks for the tip on this.
------------------ Steve Mushynsky
1984 Fiero 2M4 34K miles
1986 Fiero SE I4 (donor) Lots of good miles. One very bad mile.
Per the AC Delco resource, I see that the ECU for the 2006 G6 3.9L manual transmission version is a different part number from my 2005 G6 3.5L. I also noticed that the auto and manual transmissions for the 2006 G6 3.9L are controlled by the same TCU part number. I take it that the ECU communicates with the TCM in the same manner regardless of the transmission options therein, but with differing data options communicated.
Manual transmission applications don't use a TCM/TCU. Only the ECM is present. In auto transmission applications that have separate ECM and TCMs, the ECM communicates with the TCM over the GM hi-speed LAN data bus.
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So with the same engine, the same PCU # works with either transmission type. For a manual transmission, the ECU needs at least an input from a transmission VSS, correct? (Please bear with me - I'm learning here)
In a manual trans application, the VSS would connect directly to the ECM (and the OS in the ECM would have logic to deal with the VSS input signal).
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So, to be proper, I would need to find an ECU from an LX9 equipped vehicle with a manual transmission, right? Only there were no LX9 vehicles with manual transmissions, I think, and the LX9 and LZ9 don't share ECU part numbers, true?
Is there any developed wizardry among the ECU reprogramming world to get around this conundrum?
To my knowledge, the LX9 was NEVER offered with a manual trans in any production application. The AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to answer your question as to if the LX9 ever shared the same part number ECM with the LZ9, but I don't think it did. All of the LX9 applications I've seen were still using PCMs (the same module controlled the engine and transmission). By the time the LZ9 and other 3500 variants were introduced in 2006, GM split the PCM into separate ECM and TCM modules. And I've never seen an LX9 with separate ECM and TCM modules (but again, AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to verify this for you).
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Reading your prior reply, please note that the Uplander ECU is the same manufacturer part number that I've already obtained that is taken from a 2005 Pontiac G6 with LX9 & auto transmission: Part # 12591279. This is my starting point - unless, of course, I need to start with something else.
It is possible HP Tuners might be able to read and edit the 2005 G6 LX9 AT tune that's on your 1279 PCM. I haven't tried it. But even if it can't, we can always reprogram that PCM you have with stock 05 Uplander programming which HP Tuners should be able to edit.
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I also note that the VIN eighth digit for this and the rest of the 2005 GM LX9 minivans is "L", rather than "8" as for the non-minivan cars. I assume this denotes an exhaust and accessories difference to accommodate the minivan platform.
As to the VATS/BCM issue, I'm actually not averse to adapting my Fiero to a VATS pushbutton start system with the BCS's cruise control feature and A/C, too. It seems an interesting challenge and besides, my son - who is a certified Toyota master mechanic - has done the equivalent with his engine-swapped MR2. He does tuning for Toyota hardware, but is unfamiliar with and has not the equipment for GM stuff.
I don't think I've ever seen a stock LX9 equipped car with pushbutton start. And you would need to run a BCM/pushbutton ignition system that is compatible with whatever PCM/ECM you are using.
And to be quite honest, it might be something you want to avoid. I ran into problems trying to retrofit a 2011 Corvette LS3 and the BCM from that car into a 1951 Studebaker truck. The BCM had all sorts of problems recognizing the fob in this swap - so much so we had to place the fob right next to the transceiver module every time we wanted it to be recognized (and permit the pushbutton start to work). However, I will admit I'm sure all the extra steel on the interior of this truck probably caused the problems. The Fiero doesn't have near as much steel, so it could work.
To my knowledge, the LX9 was NEVER offered with a manual trans in any production application. The AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to answer your question as to if the LX9 ever shared the same part number ECM with the LZ9, but I don't think it did. All of the LX9 applications I've seen were still using PCMs (the same module controlled the engine and transmission). By the time the LZ9 and other 3500 variants were introduced in 2006, GM split the PCM into separate ECM and TCM modules. And I've never seen an LX9 with separate ECM and TCM modules (but again, AC Delco online parts catalog should be able to verify this for you).
-ryan
The transition was from 4 speed automatics with single PCM controlling engine and trans to 6 speed automatics with separate TCM on the vehicle network. This also coincides with the switch from 24x (and other) crank triggers to universal 58x crank triggers... it was a wholesale transition of whole vehicle electrical architecture across the entire product line, so almost everything changed across that transition. The LX9 was before that transition while the LZ4/LZ9 were after.
It might be interesting to start with a 24x V8 OS and see if it can be set for 6 cylinder operation. That would open up all kinds of tuning opportunities.
The transition was from 4 speed automatics with single PCM controlling engine and trans to 6 speed automatics with separate TCM on the vehicle network. This also coincides with the switch from 24x (and other) crank triggers to universal 58x crank triggers... it was a wholesale transition of whole vehicle electrical architecture across the entire product line, so almost everything changed across that transition. The LX9 was before that transition while the LZ4/LZ9 were after.
It might be interesting to start with a 24x V8 OS and see if it can be set for 6 cylinder operation. That would open up all kinds of tuning opportunities.
The last year a "PCM" was used in a FWD V6 application was, I believe, 2006 with the LX9. That same year, GM rolled out the next generation 3.5L: LZE and LZ4 which used a separate ECM and TCM (to my knowledge, a "PCM" was never used with an LZE, LZ4, or LZ9). See: https://web.archive.org/web...r%20eng%20trans.html
GM continued using the 4-speed autos with 58x V6's in FWD applications thru at least the 2009 model year (separate ECM and TCM). The LZE and LZ4 3.5L's were primarily used with 4T45E transmissions in smaller vehicles like the G6 and Malibu, while the Impalas got the 4T65E (G6's with the 3.9 LZ9 also got paired with the 4T65E).
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-09-2019).]
