Fiero family... long story short, my Fiero has been in storage for almost a decade, where it will probably sit for another decade. But while parts are still available, I'd like to buy what I need for when the time comes. Hoping you guys can help me decide what I need to buy:
5-Speed Getrag: I purchased an original 86-87 Fiero 5-Speed Getrag w/ 57k miles on it from forum-member Blacktree. Transmission is immaculate, and is spotless (not even grease on the case). Other than swapping out the oil, what else would you recommend replacing before it goes back in the car? Are there any modifications you would do to it while it's out? I thought I saw the Fiero Store had some kind of bearing kit that you can append to the outside to protect the inner bearing rings? Looking for a possible run-down / list of parts I can / should buy. I assume seals and what not. Note: when I put it in storage, I filled up the transmission and put caps in the holes to keep the oil in.
Fidanza Flywheel: I'm looking at getting a new flywheel to go with my 5-Speed. My Fiero was originally an automatic, but I'll be converting it to a 5-Speed (everything else is done, and all parts are new). As it's been years since I've even looked at this stuff, I seem to recall there was a change needed... something about a crank being internally versus externally balanced. I installed the ARI 3.1 Stroker Kit, and I went with .040 overbore pistons into my 1987 V6. I cannot remember, but in the act of doing this, would it have changed my engine from being externally balanced to internally balanced? The reason I ask is... I'm thinking of getting the Fidanza aluminum flywheel, and I think being internally balanced is a requirement. I *believe* I meet this requirement... but just want to make sure based on my configuration. Finally... what do you guys think of the Fidanza, is that the way to go?
Clutch Slave: My car is currently set up with a new clutch master cyl, brand new stainless clutch line, and then it's capped off in the engine bay. Is there a consideration that I should go with a hydraulic clutch bearing, or do I stick with the hydraulic slave cyl and the clutch fork do-dad? Any benefit to one over the other?
You've got to read This post. Very important information from fieroguru regarding "aluminum creep" is provided there.
Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
If you've got a 3.1, it is almost certainly internally balanced. The flywheel should work fine. I've never used one, however, so I can't add anything else.
The hydraulic release bearing is nice, but it would likely be a bear to adapt to your earlier Getrag, if it could be done at all. (I would buy Rodney's slave.)
IMHO, the "support bearings" that are sold are pretty much a bandaid, used to help out Getrags with excessive play in the differential bearings. I wouldn't use them. This is just my opinion. I welcome discussion on this, since I've never used them.
If you want to check your differential bearings, plug an axle (or just the "tulip") into each side of the diff. Shake one of them up and down. The up and down movement should not be transferred to the other side.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-07-2019).]
That's odd. I don't remember selling a Getrag transmission. Anyway...
The issue with those axle support bearings is they make score marks in the casing during installation. So once you install them, you can't go back to stock axle seals. Because they'll leak.
If you've got a 3.1, it is almost certainly internally balanced. The flywheel should work fine. I've never used one, however, so I can't add anything else.
The hydraulic release bearing is nice, but it would likely be a bear to adapt to your earlier Getrag, if it could be done at all. (I would buy Rodney's slave.)
IMHO, the "support bearings" that are sold are pretty much a bandaid, used to help out Getrags with excessive play in the differential bearings. I wouldn't use them. This is just my opinion. I welcome discussion on this, since I've never used them.
If you want to check your differential bearings, plug an axle (or just the "tulip") into each side of the diff. Shake one of them up and down. The up and down movement should not be transferred to the other side.
Yes... it's a 3.1 stroker kit. Original 2.8, but with a 3.1 crank and rods.
Thanks!!!
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Originally posted by Blacktree:
That's odd. I don't remember selling a Getrag transmission. Anyway...
The issue with those axle support bearings is they make score marks in the casing during installation. So once you install them, you can't go back to stock axle seals. Because they'll leak.
Bought is a strong word... I think more like let myself into your garage and took it!
Hahah, sorry... damn, I thought it was you. Maybe it was Blackrams... sigh. Oh well. But it was a spectacular 5-Speed. Came bolted to the inside of a crate, immaculate.
Thanks for the info... I appreciate it. I won't order those then. Sounds like it's something we only need if it's worn out.
Bought is a strong word... I think more like let myself into your garage and took it!
Hahah, sorry... damn, I thought it was you. Maybe it was Blackrams... sigh. Oh well. But it was a spectacular 5-Speed. Came bolted to the inside of a crate, immaculate.
Thanks for the info... I appreciate it. I won't order those then. Sounds like it's something we only need if it's worn out.
GM made an axle support bearing kit for the passenger side of the TH 125 transmissions. I have about 5,000 miles on the ones in my Getrag and all is still good. The differential bearings didn't have excessive play but the seals still leaked. Here's the thread.
I also have the Fidanza aluminum flywheel on a Series III 3800 SC motor, about 7,000 miles since the install. I did the steel bushings with hardened steel flat washers and all is good there too.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hahah, sorry... damn, I thought it was you. Maybe it was Blackrams... sigh. Oh well. But it was a spectacular 5-Speed. Came bolted to the inside of a crate, immaculate.
People often confuse our usernames. So that may be the case.
Regarding the flywheel: As mentioned above, you'll need a neutral balance flywheel. The Fidanza ones have neutral balance. So they're good to go.
Edit to add: People keep talking about Fidanza flywheels coming loose. I've had a Fidanza flywheel for about 10 years now. It's been removed and re-installed a couple times (once for an engine swap, once to replace the friction surface). It has never come loose. The aluminum has never "squished". And I don't use any special washers or whatever. Maybe I'm super lucky? Maybe my flywheel was blessed by magical fairies? I dunno...
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-08-2019).]
Originally posted by Blacktree: Edit to add: People keep talking about Fidanza flywheels coming loose. I've had a Fidanza flywheel for about 10 years now. It's been removed and re-installed a couple times (once for an engine swap, once to replace the friction surface). It has never come loose. The aluminum has never "squished". And I don't use any special washers or whatever. Maybe I'm super lucky? Maybe my flywheel was blessed by magical fairies? I dunno...
One instance of "lack of failure" does not constitute proof that a design is "safe" for general public use...
Of course, what is considered "safe" depends on your risk tolerance.
If you're an OEM, 1/10000 parts failing with lethal consequences may be considered a dangerous problem requiring a recall... but your test of one unit isn't likely to show problems if the failure rate is 1/10000.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
If Fidanza in your opinion sells scrap (as evidenced by the fact that you're searching for "solutions" to a brand-new flywheel), and you don't know what you're doing (as evidenced by your random guessing at solutions), why don't you ask Fidanza to address your concerns?
If there is indeed a design issue, it makes no sense at all that unqualified end-users attempt to patch the issue... the manufacturer should correct this, if there is a problem.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: One instance of "lack of failure" does not constitute proof that a design is "safe" for general public use...
People tend to exaggerate the negative. I'm willing to bet the actual failure rates (due to mfgr) are lower than the rumor mill would suggest. I'd also be willing to bet many of the failures are from incorrect installation.
Seeing as how it was me who first mentioned the possible potential issues with Fidanza aluminum flywheels in this thread, I feel I should add some further comment.
I've been a member of this forum practically since day one. I make extensive use of the Search function here. When I was considering purchasing a Fidanza flywheel for my Formula several years ago, I did my homework and discovered many many reports here of issues with these flywheels working their way loose. I can't believe "incorrect installation" is the reason for all these failures.... especially when a respected forum member with the knowledge and expertise of fieroguru has chimed in on what the problem is and how to help correct it.
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Originally stated by fieroguru:
Aluminum creep is often caused by the hole being too large, the bolt head being too small, and the material thickness being too thin at the bolted attachment. This causes very high localized pressure and room for the material to "flow" into.
If you wanted to run a Fidanza flywheel and address the creep issue, just press some thin steel bushings into the existing holes and leave them about .030" shorter than the thickness of the flywheel. The issue is the bolt holes are way too big, which reduces the area of the material the clamp force is spread against and makes it easier to "flow". The sleeves don't reduce the pressure, but they support the material and eliminate the opening it has to flow into, which will greatly reduce the chance for it to work loose.
Perhaps Fidanza changed the design of their aluminum flywheels at some point, with one version being less prone to getting loose than the other. I seem to have a vague recollection of this, but if I did read this somewhere/sometime, I've forgotten the finer details.
Remember, I'm just the messenger. I'm certainly not asking anyone to blindly accept what I'm saying without reservation. For anyone who's curiosity about "aluminum creep" has been tweaked, this info is all still in the archives here (as well as posted elsewhere online).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-08-2019).]
GM made an axle support bearing kit for the passenger side of the TH 125 transmissions. I have about 5,000 miles on the ones in my Getrag and all is still good. The differential bearings didn't have excessive play but the seals still leaked. Here's the thread.
Thanks Larry! I appreciate the link!
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Originally posted by Blacktree:
Regarding the flywheel: As mentioned above, you'll need a neutral balance flywheel. The Fidanza ones have neutral balance. So they're good to go.
Thanks Blacktree, I appreciate it. I think I knew this, but I kept forgetting. When I switched to the 3.1 crank and rods, I must have gone with a neutrally balanced flywheel too. I can't remember, it was so long ago. I did everything on the cheap because at the time, I had very little money. Fiscally speaking, I really was in no position to have a project / fun car since I was living in an apartment at the time. But I want to make sure I get everything I need before parts become largely unavailable.
I assume that even if neutrally balanced, you still want to keep a harmonic balancer on the front, correct? I think I put the old one back, which I know was ghetto, but again... ~15 years ago, I was cutting corners.
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Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
If Fidanza in your opinion sells scrap (as evidenced by the fact that you're searching for "solutions" to a brand-new flywheel), and you don't know what you're doing (as evidenced by your random guessing at solutions), why don't you ask Fidanza to address your concerns?
If there is indeed a design issue, it makes no sense at all that unqualified end-users attempt to patch the issue... the manufacturer should correct this, if there is a problem.
I think you're definitely misunderstanding, and underestimating me. I apologize if you've taken offense to my questioning (though messages don't convey emotion), or at the very least, you seem a bit edgy.
I actually really like the Fidanza, which is why I'm asking about it. My questions above are what I need to do to the 5-Speed before I put it back, what requirements there are for the Fidanza, and what options I have for a clutch slave.
I'd certainly question your comment about me "not knowing what I'm doing." I know as much, if not more than most of the people on this forum about cars; however, I've taken a hiatus from working on cars for the past 8 years as my career has required me to move every 3-4 years, and I've spent most of my spare time renovating and flipping homes. My goal is to buy everything for my car that I can so I can stuff my storage unit with parts for whenever the time comes in my life that I can get back to working on it. But the car currently sits 1,500 miles from where I live right now.
I'm simply doing my due-diligence... so I apologize if I've upset you by asking about the flywheel. My intent is still to buy it, I just want to make sure if there are additional parts I can buy with it to make it more secure, then I'd hope to do so.
I know that just because a company sells a part, does not mean it's without flaw. I'm reminded of the Holley "Performance" water-pumps that they sold many years ago (through Coltec Industries). It had a "low resistance" plastic impeller. I bought one, and after 6 months of use, the plastic impeller broke free from the shaft, my car overheated on the highway, and the main-bearings fried. It's the reason I had to have my engine rebuilt in the first place. Due-diligence is being responsible.
It's not about the money, it's because I have an emotional attachment to this car. It was my first car. The last thing I want is for a flywheel to fail and go shooting through my transmission and possibly the firewall, destroying the car, chassis, and possibly myself.
I appreciate your responses.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-09-2019).]
I just finished a fresh rebuild on a 2.8 for racing in chumpcar and went the route of the fidenza flywheel. We added washers and used red loctite. Knock on wood, so far no issues. We ran a total of 12 racing hours at charlotte motor speedway on it and did not experience any issue.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I think you're definitely misunderstanding, and underestimating me. I apologize if you've taken offense to my questioning (though messages don't convey emotion), or at the very least, you seem a bit edgy.
I'm not offended by your questioning. I just see that you have no idea what you're getting yourself into... so I'm just pointing out what you don't know before you hurt yourself.
If a water pump dies, the worst thing that happens is you blow a motor. No biggie. If a flywheel comes loose, that's serious stuff. You said it yourself, it can go flying through your back.
You are proposing to redesign the bolted joint between the flywheel and crankshaft. Normally, that kind of work (especially where failure can be deadly) is done by people with engineering training.
From this statement:
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
...either you have never received engineering training, or it is long forgotten.
Underneath the bolt heads, it's compression on the aluminium, not tension. Confusing tension vs. compression is the equivalent of a medical doctor not knowing the difference between blood and urine.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'd certainly question your comment about me "not knowing what I'm doing." I know as much, if not more than most of the people on this forum about cars
Knowing as much or more about cars than most folks on the forum is not a qualification to design a bolted joint.
If you like the Fidanza flywheel, but aren't sure about its safety, ask Fidanza to address your concerns. Show them whatever failures have occurred, and ask for explanations. If they're a good company, they will either explain to you why there is no problem, or they will realize "oh **** " and address the safety issue for the flywheels already in service.
If Fidanza can't offer customer support/reassurance, then why would you want to send these guys your money? A good company does not leave Joe Average end-users to cobble together safety-critical stuff in their garage.
fieroguru is a special case of end-user. He has mechanical engineering training. That said, copying his fix without understanding is perhaps an unwise action. Again with the medical doctor analogy, if you are not a medical doctor, would you follow a step-by-step procedure written by a doctor to perform surgery on someone?
For information, I didn't feel like doing my homework before purchasing a Fidanza flywheel. Instead, I got a stock replacement flywheel for my Fiero.
I'm not offended by your questioning. I just see that you have no idea what you're getting yourself into... so I'm just pointing out what you don't know before you hurt yourself.
If a water pump dies, the worst thing that happens is you blow a motor. No biggie. If a flywheel comes loose, that's serious stuff. You said it yourself, it can go flying through your back.
You are proposing to redesign the bolted joint between the flywheel and crankshaft. Normally, that kind of work (especially where failure can be deadly) is done by people with engineering training.
...either you have never received engineering training, or it is long forgotten.
Underneath the bolt heads, it's compression on the aluminium, not tension. Confusing tension vs. compression is the equivalent of a medical doctor not knowing the difference between blood and urine.
Knowing as much or more about cars than most folks on the forum is not a qualification to design a bolted joint.
If you like the Fidanza flywheel, but aren't sure about its safety, ask Fidanza to address your concerns. Show them whatever failures have occurred, and ask for explanations. If they're a good company, they will either explain to you why there is no problem, or they will realize "oh **** " and address the safety issue for the flywheels already in service.
If Fidanza can't offer customer support/reassurance, then why would you want to send these guys your money? A good company does not leave Joe Average end-users to cobble together safety-critical stuff in their garage.
fieroguru is a special case of end-user. He has mechanical engineering training. That said, copying his fix without understanding is perhaps an unwise action. Again with the medical doctor analogy, if you are not a medical doctor, would you follow a step-by-step procedure written by a doctor to perform surgery on someone?
For information, I didn't feel like doing my homework before purchasing a Fidanza flywheel. Instead, I got a stock replacement flywheel for my Fiero.
I'm trying to be nice in my response, but you're not being helpful. I've seen several of your posts to multiple members where the very first thing you do is attempt to insult them on your perceived level of their skill, while attempting to elevate yourself. I really think you should know, you're kind of coming off like a jerk in most of your posts. You're making a lot of assumptions about everyone that you respond to. I know your assumption is that everyone on here is either 16 or living in near-poverty, but there are some VERY accomplished people on here. You have CEOs, Federal agents, Cyber Security experts, politicians, even a brain surgeon here on PFF. So I ask, take it down a notch... you have a lot to offer, but you're negating all of that with your attitude.
As for me, I have multiple engineering degrees, and I'd probably say at least half the people on here also have engineering degrees. If you look, I'm information gathering. That's an important step to making a decision. My question was if someone had already designed "a fix" for the problem people have been experiencing. I'm not attempting to re-engineering anything, I'm asking if someone else already has. You may have a lot to offer PFF, but your attitude is a detractor.
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Originally posted by Dspoeth:
I just finished a fresh rebuild on a 2.8 for racing in chumpcar and went the route of the fidenza flywheel. We added washers and used red loctite. Knock on wood, so far no issues. We ran a total of 12 racing hours at charlotte motor speedway on it and did not experience any issue.
Thanks, that's what I was thinking as well. I wonder if everyone else here used Loctite on the bolts?
When I replaced the torque converter in my Fiero about 15-20 years ago, I didn't use Loctite and the converter to flywheel bolts started to back out. I learned my lesson. But I'm wondering if the lack of Loctite or thread locker is what's causing most of the issue that others are having.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-09-2019).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I assume that even if neutrally balanced, you still want to keep a harmonic balancer on the front, correct?
Yes, for 2 reasons. First, the HB absorbs some vibration from the crankshaft. Picture someone breaking a wine glass with harmonic resonance. That can also happen to a crankshaft. And secondly, the crankshaft pulley needs something to attach to.
You've been out of Tech for a while, so I wasn't aware of your distaste for my posts.
I'll stay out of your threads.
It's not me, I've seen this in several posts you've made to others in other threads. I *completely* understand that when you're talking to someone who you feel is ignorant on a topic, that it can get frustrating and you lose your patience quickly. But you have to learn to internalize that, and put yourself in the shoes of the person who's asking the questions. It's neither helpful, or beneficial to anyone when you respond the way you do. This is not how you make friends. I can tell that you have a lot to offer people on here with your experience and insight, but your delivery is "not great" ... to put it mildly.
I'm using 2 Fidanza flywheels for years. On my 87 GT, my block came from a 2001 3400 and I rebuilt it to use iron heads and DOHC pistons and the engine was fully balanced. I'm using the Fiero accessories, etc. Engine was smooth as butter and no issues with Fidanza flywheel. Even replace the cast iron friction plate on it once already and it's still good to go.
It's also running the Summit aluminum 1.6 full roller rockers that required my aluminum valve cover spacers to site between the F-body gasket and the Fiero gasket.
Let me be the first here to admit that I do not have an engineering degree.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I wonder if everyone else here used Loctite on the bolts?
When I replaced the torque converter in my Fiero about 15-20 years ago, I didn't use Loctite and the converter to flywheel bolts started to back out. I learned my lesson. But I'm wondering if the lack of Loctite or thread locker is what's causing most of the issue that others are having.
From what I understand of the Fidanza "aluminum creep" issue, the flywheel mounting bolts getting loose has nothing to do with them backing out. They get loose because the aluminum (of the flywheel) that they're snugged up against changes shape around the bolt holes. The aluminum "creeps" away from the underside of the bolt heads and into the (excessively large) bolt holes. In other words, Loctite will prevent the bolts from backing out, but will not prevent the bolts (or more specifically, the flywheel) from getting loose. Make sense?
In situations where this hasn't been an issue, I can think of at least two possible reasons. #1 - In racing and/or in low mileage vehicles, perhaps there simply haven't been enough hours of operation between flywheel re & re for enough "creep" (and therefore looseness) to have occurred. It's not going to happen overnight. It probably takes a lot of heat cycles. #2 - Or, as I alluded to earlier, there may've been two slightly different versions of aluminum flywheels made for this engine by Fidanza... and one design may be superior to the other in this regard. (Possibly the diameter of the flywheel mounting holes is less excessive.)
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-10-2019).]
Let me be the first here to admit that I do not have an engineering degree.
From what I understand of the Fidanza "aluminum creep" issue, the flywheel mounting bolts getting loose has nothing to do with them backing out. They get loose because the aluminum (of the flywheel) that they're snugged up against changes shape around the bolt holes. The aluminum "creeps" away from the underside of the bolt heads and into the (excessively large) bolt holes. In other words, Loctite will prevent the bolts from backing out, but will not prevent the bolts (or more specifically, the flywheel) from getting loose. Make sense?
In situations where this hasn't been an issue, I can think of at least two possible reasons. #1 - In racing and/or in low mileage vehicles, perhaps there simply haven't been enough hours of operation between flywheel re & re for enough "creep" (and therefore looseness) to have occurred. It's not going to happen overnight. It probably takes a lot of heat cycles. #2 - Or, as I alluded to earlier, there may've been two slightly different versions of aluminum flywheels made for this engine by Fidanza... and one design may be superior to the other in this regard. (Possibly the diameter of the flywheel mounting holes is less excessive.)
Perfect Patrick... makes complete sense. I thought people were machining the bolt holes to add strength to them, but I didn't realize the holes themselves were of size noticeably larger than the bolt themselves. This seems like a relatively poor design. I suspect they probably designed it that way so that it could fit a number of applications... makes total sense why this would be an issue.
My car would be low mileage too... but I'd want it to be reliable as if I was going to use it for a daily driver. Thanks for helping me out here... I appreciate it. I think I'm going to order one, and check fitment. I may go with washers like others have suggested to help "bite" onto the material.
As for an engineering degree. Getting most engineering degrees doesn't require extreme smarts, just requires dedication, like anything else that doesn't come easy. But it's not about the degree, it's what you do with the knowledge learned. The engineering degree is just a piece of paper.
