I replaced my broken waterpump and started my Fiero up for the first time only to find out it was leaking coolant from somewhere pretty bad. Today I jacked up the car to see where it came form and it was actually leaking coolant from two small holes, one in an exhaust pipe, the other in the catalyst. White smoke was coming from my exhausts.
I let it idle for a few minutes and the engine was actually purring along nicely.
I don't think this is something new. I can remember white smoke coming out of the exhaust for quite some time, and refilling the coolant was also something I had to do regularly (I knew I had a leak somewhere but never found out where).
So could it be a blown head gasket? Intake gasket? How do I troubleshoot this?
White smoke when you first start up is normal. It is condensation that will turn in to water vapour as the engine warms up. Then you won't see any white smoke until the next cold start. Drops of water coming out of the tailpipe or dripping at joints is normal too until the engine warms up. Unless you can actually tell the leaks are antifreeze there is nothing to worry about.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 05-19-2020).]
It's not a few drops, it's *a lot* that's coming out.
It also explains a few things. First of all, I have two leaks in my exhaust system. Both leaks are at the lowest points of the exhaust system. So where the coolant would collect. Also, before my water pump failed, I had to add coolant every 1-2 months or so.
Also, for the past year or so that I was still driving the car (and when I started the car yesterday and today), whenever I cold started the engine I always had the feeling one cylinder wasn't firing (it sounded like it wasn't). After a few minutes, the engine would run normal. This could easily be explained by a wet spark plug.
It's not a few drops, it's *a lot* that's coming out.
It also explains a few things. First of all, I have two leaks in my exhaust system. Both leaks are at the lowest points of the exhaust system. So where the coolant would collect. Also, before my water pump failed, I had to add coolant every 1-2 months or so.
Also, for the past year or so that I was still driving the car (and when I started the car yesterday and today), whenever I cold started the engine I always had the feeling one cylinder wasn't firing (it sounded like it wasn't). After a few minutes, the engine would run normal. This could easily be explained by a wet spark plug.
Yes, pull all the plugs and see which one stands out. It should look very different.
You should also look at the bottom of the oil filler cap. Excessive moisture in the crankcase will show up as a tan or caramel colored muck. My 86SE : http://www.gafiero.org/bbs/...8327e8a&topic=4145.0
Next is to run a compression test and see if a cylinder shows up low.
Then take off the engine coolant fill cap and remove the thermostat, then put pressurized air into the cylinder that showed low... if it's leaking into the cooling system, then you'll push coolant out the fill.
Everything you are saying points to a head gasket leak. Take a whiff of the exhaust, it probably smells like antifreeze.
I agree. This: "white smoke coming out of the exhaust for quite some time, and refilling the coolant was also something I had to do regularly" Not finding an external leak..
..is antifreeze burning in the cylinders with the fuel and air. A head gasket is the usual cause.
Pull the dipstick and see the oil color. Light brown means water in oil. Next do a pressure check of the cooling system . You use a pressure tester and pump it up to 18 lbs or so. If it doesn't hold the pressure you have a leak somewhere. Likely- You just replaced the water pump and you could have disturbed the engine to timing cover gasket seal. Until you find the leak do not drive the car. Narrowing things down to all possibilities; the timing cover seal (or maybe unsealed water pump bolts), head gasket or intake manifold gasket leak. As you just worked there, my guess is a timing cover seal leak.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: ... As you just worked there, my guess is a timing cover seal leak.
Based upon the info provided (Steam. Water dripping from the exhaust system. Previous ongoing coolant loss.) I disagree.
If the oil remains clean, and doesn't assume that "mocha milkshake" look, the timing cover seal should be fine. The timing cover would allow water to get into the oil. NOT the cylinders, as appears to be happening.
Oil from the dipstick is dark. I don't think it's the timing cover seal that's been broken since it took no effort whatsoever to remove the water pump.
Oil from the dipstick is dark. I don't think it's the timing cover seal that's been broken since it took no effort whatsoever to remove the water pump.
That leaves an intake manifold gasket, or more likely, a head gasket.
I found my head gasket leak by pressurizing the cylinders one at a time, with the thermostat cap and thermostat removed. It has to be done in the same order as the firing order, on the engine's compression stroke (i.e. with both valves completely closed.)
I used my air compressor, and the spark plug adapter hose that came with my compression gauge. With the cylinder at top-dead-center (or thereabouts) I applied pressure to the cylinder. When bubbles came out of the thermostat housing, I knew that I had found my leak.
If you don't have access to an air compressor, you might be able to tell by shooting a laser thermometer at the headers, where the pipe comes out of the head. If the cylinder is misfiring, it will be significantly cooler. It might be difficult to tell, if it's one of the "downstream" cylinders (nearer the trans), since the heat from the upstream cylinders will still travel past.
I don't have a garage so I did the water pump at the side of the road. I'm guessing replacing gaskets isn't something I could do at the side of the road...
Pffffff... Been reading a lot of threads about replacing the head gasket here on the forum. I don't think that's a job I can do.
As a matter of fact, I doubt there's a workshop here that can actually do it. So many things to screw up if you don't know these engines. Dammit, I was so looking forward driving it again...
Ok, I just started the car and let it idle for a few minutes. Not a drop. Not a single drop leaked from anywhere. No white smoke from the exhaust either. And the engine purred like a kitten. Ok, it idled a bit high (around 1500 RPM) but that could be because the ECM has obviously resetted itself, a cold engine, and because a few of the vaccuum lines have broken off.
I'm utterly confused now. Could it have been simply moist collected during the past 9 months it had been sitting still?
Is it warmer out today over there? Outside temperature makes a difference. If the oil looks good and you are not losing coolant I do not see a problem. I do not have a 2.8 but if you saw the amount of water and condensation that comes out of mine before it warms up you would be amazed.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 05-20-2020).]
Cliff, I had a little 88 Duke. For a long time, it would pour little streams of water out of the muffler weep holes after starting. I could find no leaks in the system where water could get into the exhaust. It was especially heavy after a rain. Eventually, it stopped.
Cold engine can push out a lot of water as normal. More so w/ cold or wet days. This water won't smell like coolant. Can "feel" like coolant because can also pick up oil/fuel/etc. on the way to whatever.
If intake manifold has problems... gasket bad or manifold bad... Can leak coolant in the engine then "burn" by a 1 or more cinders. If true that will quickly poison the Cat and O2 sensor. Pull spark plugs near Tstant and temp sensors/senders on V6 should be cleaner then other plugs from "burning" coolant. If have other plug(s) cleaner then may have bigger problems like bad head gasket or crack head.
I have seen buckets of water come out of tailpipes before when the car was first started up. Condensation in the exhaust is normal. It will be more noticeable in a high humidity area for sure.
Ok, I just started the car and let it idle for a few minutes. Not a drop. Not a single drop leaked from anywhere. No white smoke from the exhaust either. And the engine purred like a kitten. Could it have been simply moist collected during the past 9 months it had been sitting still?
Certainly that could be the case. Your leaking water pump could also be the reason you were loosing coolant, all along.
When my head gasket was leaking, if I hit the gas hard, it would blow coolant out of the engine into (and out of) the overflow bottle. Try this... let it sit and idle. Once it is up to operating temperature, put the car in drive, and floor the gas for a second or two. No need to hold it for any length of time. Check the overflow. If it's filling up, and blowing water out, it would tend to point to a blown head gasket. If not, you should be good to go.
Beyond that, just keep an eye on the coolant level, the next couple of times you drive it.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-20-2020).]
Started her up again yesterday and again, not a drop to be seen (well, a few drops from the thermostat cap). So that's good. Drove it for a few yards and I do notice a few problems:
High idle (around 1500 RPM)
Hardly brakes
FR brake sounds "warped"
The high idle could be because the ECM is reset (had the battery disconnected) and because a few vacuum lines are broken. That it hardly brakes is probably because the brake discs have rusted. But not sure where the warped sound comes from.
Started her up again yesterday and again, not a drop to be seen (well, a few drops from the thermostat cap). So that's good. Drove it for a few yards and I do notice a few problems:
High idle (around 1500 RPM)
Hardly brakes
FR brake sounds "warped"
The high idle could be because the ECM is reset (had the battery disconnected) and because a few vacuum lines are broken. That it hardly brakes is probably because the brake discs have rusted. But not sure where the warped sound comes from.
I'd say fix the vacuum lines right away. You also need vacuum to work the brakes. Check for vacuum at booster (pull the check valve).
Rusty rotors are going to be loud until they get cleaned off.
This. Exactly. Drive it around and make a few stops. Unless rotors are badly warped, they should wipe off and smooth out, in just a few minutes, or a handful of stops.
High idle might be caused by the ECM needing to be reset by driving. Or it could be caused by vacuum leaks. Usually by bad plastic lines, or (more likely) by deteriorated rubber fittings at the ends of those plastic lines. Any rubber connector that is easy to twist or move around is suspect. It won't be nearly as pretty, but I replaced ALL of my hard plastic vacuum lines - and the previously mentioned rubber fittings - with soft rubber lines. Fixed all of my strange intermittent ECM codes and other strange stuff. YMMV.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-22-2020).]
There are two obvious places where there is a problem with the vacuum lines: the elbow that connects the vacuum line to the intake plenum was completely rotted away and the line coming out of the EGR valve wasn't connecting to anything.
Since it's nearly impossible to get the elbow here, I made my own. Haven't tested it yet but will do so today. As for connecting the hose coming out of the EGR Valve, it should be connected to a steel pipe on the firewall, but... there's no steel pipe on the firewall in my car. So I'll jack the car up and see if it was routed differently.
My DIY elbow for the intake plenum works like a charm. Got rid of the high idle as well. It now idles (cold) around 900-1000 RPM. Only a few small items left. I'll start new threads for those.
The hose coming from the EGR valve runs underneath the manifold and goes to the EGR solenoid. The hose from the forward end of the EGR solenoid is the one that goes to the metal hose on the firewall. On the other side, that metal line transitions back to a rubber hose that connects to the air filter canister on the filtered side of the filter.
Just wanted to give an update. I have had no coolant leaks whatsoever so I'm guessing the water that I saw was water collected in the exhaust during the 9-12 months it had been sitting still. The engine is running great, and I really, really enjoy driving her again!
I do have a warped brake disc I think, so not sure what to do about that.
Just wanted to give an update. I have had no coolant leaks whatsoever so I'm guessing the water that I saw was water collected in the exhaust during the 9-12 months it had been sitting still. The engine is running great, and I really, really enjoy driving her again!
Just wanted to give an update. I have had no coolant leaks whatsoever so I'm guessing the water that I saw was water collected in the exhaust during the 9-12 months it had been sitting still. The engine is running great, and I really, really enjoy driving her again!
I do have a warped brake disc I think, so not sure what to do about that.
Great news! Glad you're on the road again. Depending on the condition / thickness of your existing disks, you may be able to have the warp machined out. A good brake shop should be able to assess the possibility for you. I've had it (assessed) done before with the disks on the car. (But they were pretty bad!)
Good luck & happy ridin'!
[This message has been edited by Mike in Sydney (edited 06-15-2020).]
Just wanted to give an update. I have had no coolant leaks whatsoever so I'm guessing the water that I saw was water collected in the exhaust during the 9-12 months it had been sitting still. The engine is running great, and I really, really enjoy driving her again!
I do have a warped brake disc I think, so not sure what to do about that.
Don't mistake a warped brake disc for a possible stuck caliper especially after sitting for a year. Easy test... no tools required. Drive car using brake as much as you can then pull over and apply palm of hand on center of each wheel. All should feel about the same temperature. If not you found your stuck caliper, front or rear.
Plan "B". Front only. Drive vehicle on straight road at normal speed. Hold steering wheel loose in hand and give brake pedal a soft jab. Car & steering wheel should remain straight. If steering wheel goes right you probably have stuck left caliper. Same logic applies if pull is to the other side.
If you do have a warped rotor it can be machined unless its been done before and has reached it's minimum thickness. Ways to avoid warping a rotor.. example. your doing 60 mph and you have to apply the brake immediately for a panic stop. The rotors are cooking and while your sitting there with foot on brake the rotor is cooling down except for the area where the pad is against the rotor. You take off and the next brake application you notice a vibration at the front brakes.
A visual inspection may even reveal the impression of the pad on the rotor where it was frying. In those situations I try to keep my foot off the brake after a panic stop so the rotors can cool evenly.
Others may chime in later with useful opinions or contradictions. Drive safe.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
We've already covered this a couple of times in your previous thread 
