My upcoming winter upgrade.... Breaking into some extreme new grounds here, pretty excited but also very nervous as this is a big pile of investing in things that not only have never been done but hell I've barely even heard people dream about.
Great project and you have no doubt done some great mods to your Fieros. I just have one question. The 3.4TDC engine and the trans weighs in at something like 575 lbs. That seems like a lot of weight for a road racing car. The lightweight Ecotech would seem a better choice but perhaps you have already looked into that.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-04-2020).]
You guys are sharp. It is indeed the DQ250 from a VW. its VERY compact, although strangely enough about 3 inches "longer" than the 4t65e... and almost heavier than a 4t65e... Its a dual wet clutch, rated for about 350 torque in the application I will be running on it. Its out of a 2009 Jetta turbo.
Current loose plan is as follows..
1. Adapt VW flywheel to LS4 crankshaft, as thin as I can manage. 2. create a flat-ish adapter plate from the LS4 to the DQ250, use the flywheel/input shaft to establish centricity. the bellhousing of the VW trans is like a direct copy of the 60degree v6 pattern, but its micro, like 9inches in diameter vs the 12-13 that the 60degree pattern is. 3. find VW axles that fit (mildly possible, have a ton of adjustment in the LCA for a longer than stock fiero axle) 4. install VW hubs into the fiero knuckles. 5. Run DSG using all of the CAN signals sent out by a stock Jetta 6. Run a standalone ECU on the LS motor, feeding my race dash. 7. Install a little twist knob on the dash, and some cool ferrari challenge paddle shifters on the steering wheel for the gear selection, lol
LS4 has a LS2 intake, big cam, and some oil mods. Should easily make 380-400whp.
Great project and you have no doubt done some great mods to your Fieros. I just have one question. The 3.4TDC engine and the trans weighs in at something like 575 lbs. That seems like a lot of weight for a road racing car. The lightweight Ecotech would seem a better choice but perhaps you have already looked into that.
Well, if you see the latest post you'll see that its no longer either of those BUT it isnt getting lighter. The reality is weight isnt that big of a deal. This car is already pretty light, around 2400lbs, and saving a few hundred here or there isnt going to help me nearly as much as another few hundred horsepower and instant shifts will. And with road racing you need to put a severe power discount on anything that would be common in a street going fiero. a 600whp 3800 is something I could easily do, but not something that would be reliable without significant stuff like a drysump oil system, fancy cooling, and other things.
I have to ask, how are you planning to program the transmission? Can it be run on a primitive system? Is there an aftermarket system?
In my mind I am juggling the adapter plate and crankshaft adapter, and NOT making them to thick to fit. I recommend at least a basic rebuild of the transmission before installation. Those have a reputation for the control unit failing and obviously the clutch system replacement. The biggest issue with the wet clutch is that it shares the oil with the grearsets. That means that the shedding clutch material is also running through the bearings and gearsets. The new transmissions have a pump that filters and circulates the oil, even a cooler is included.
I have to ask, how are you planning to program the transmission? Can it be run on a primitive system? Is there an aftermarket system?
In my mind I am juggling the adapter plate and crankshaft adapter, and NOT making them to thick to fit. I recommend at least a basic rebuild of the transmission before installation. Those have a reputation for the control unit failing and obviously the clutch system replacement. The biggest issue with the wet clutch is that it shares the oil with the grearsets. That means that the shedding clutch material is also running through the bearings and gearsets. The new transmissions have a pump that filters and circulates the oil, even a cooler is included.
These polish ecu guys have the ability to emulate the CAN bus accordingly. Its mostly a mystery if it actually works, as almost nobody has used it but I'm not that afraid.
The TCU isnt that hard to get at either, so I can make tweaks to it directly. I will be using a KESSv2 to flash the trans, and some stuff I found on the internet to modify the software. There are 2600 parameters in the software that I have the ability to modify, oof!
I'm not too sure what I will do with the trans. This was a very not abused trans and while I'm going to clean it up a bit and make sure the fluid and stuff looks ok, the clutch replacement is an expensive and complex job that I might save for later. I want to find out if this thing even works at all before I invest much into it, and honestly its not more than a few hours from being back out and on the ground again once its in the car.
These polish ecu guys have the ability to emulate the CAN bus accordingly. Its mostly a mystery if it actually works, as almost nobody has used it but I'm not that afraid.
The TCU isnt that hard to get at either, so I can make tweaks to it directly. I will be using a KESSv2 to flash the trans, and some stuff I found on the internet to modify the software. There are 2600 parameters in the software that I have the ability to modify, oof!
I'm not too sure what I will do with the trans. This was a very not abused trans and while I'm going to clean it up a bit and make sure the fluid and stuff looks ok, the clutch replacement is an expensive and complex job that I might save for later. I want to find out if this thing even works at all before I invest much into it, and honestly its not more than a few hours from being back out and on the ground again once its in the car.
Technically the throttle by wire is just an auto blip for downshifting, but yes its an auto rev match. I was going to make this retain elec throttle body no matter what system I went with.
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Ironically, that LS4 is probably lighter than the 3.4 TDC. And it'll have almost double the HP.
Lots of feelings here...
1. I think its something like 120lbs lighter when the pennies hit the floor, lol. Iron block and these massive 4 cam heads are no joke. 2. The power is something that really bums me out. I had "full" 250ish whp that the modified intake and fancy headers gave me out of the TDC for a few laps at the track this year when it suddenly decided it wanted to not be a 30 year old antique.. and it was dead nuts reliable in the oil department as long as you ignored the slow leaks it had. I know the oil performance is not going to be as good in the LS4. The cam and intake combo I have planned for the LS4 will put me up in the 380 range to the wheels, so yes it will be double the 160whp that it made most of all year due to it running bad, but it will only be about 50% more than the "true potential" of this super nice TDC setup. If i was smart and left the LS4 mostly stock I would only be looking at a 25% increase to power peak to peak, with only a little bit of "powerband" improvement. 3. I'm really just tired of dealing with old junk. Being able to run a 2020 standalone ECU, using a 2010+ era transmission on a Gen4 LS motor really puts me into an age bracket that isnt about to be featured on American Pickers any time soon. I already have multiple companies that want to work with (for) me to develop adapters, horsepower, tuning, and even aero work on this car the second I've mentioned that its going to be using modern parts.
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This is gonna be awesome! (if it works )
Its going to work, that is for sure. It will be awesome if its reliable AND I dont somehow spend $5000 doing it. One thing I may mention is that I do NOT expect this transmission to be street friendly for quite awhile. I expect that the 1st gear start is going to be rough and light throttle shifting a little jerky. Its the most common gripe of the transmission control scheme I'm using but has been reported as completely fixed in the latest software revision as of just a few months ago.
Small update... Ordered all the electronics for the LS4 swap and I'm probably going to bolt it all onto the 3.4 so I can run it while I wait for the time to finish the LS4 DSG swap!
Its fun to think about the first few thousand posts I've had on this forum I was building an entire racing fiero for what this stuff costs, lol. Wiring should be here in a few days, I ended up ordering a chinese standalone harness for $200 assembled fully for a Gen4 LS ecu. Plan is to grommet it and shove it through the firewall and terminate what i need into the new ECU.
Originally posted by darkhorizon: Its fun to think about the first few thousand posts I've had on this forum I was building an entire racing fiero for what this stuff costs, lol.
Isn't it amazing how priorities change over time and the areas you chose to spend your time or your $$$ shift significantly.
Isn't it amazing how priorities change over time and the areas you chose to spend your time or your $$$ shift significantly.
The funnier part is I'm taking this picture in my R35 GTR parked in front of my commercial property that I keep my cars at, lol.
Also I replied to your PM from last year today.... the block is absolutely going to hit the axles, but it looks like an angle grinder will have no issues taking off pointless hunks of the block and or oil pan to make room.
"I had measured my MG 4cyl and V6 with trans with intake, starter and most accessories when I did my conversion. The accessories can make a bit of a difference. I weighed one then the other. The V6 package came out about 15lbs heavier which is a couple of big macs and a milkshake!" So that is 415lbs on the 3.4L platform. LS4 Total Engine Weight= 478 lbs (does not include power steering pump, wiring harness, or computer! "GM LS4 V8 website INFO". That's 478lbs and a wider foot print at the rear of the Fiero. It's like comparing 500lbs on a 12"x12" inches area VS a 500lbs on a 24"x24" area. The weight is displaced on a wider patch so it will seem heavier.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 07-24-2022).]
Some random progress pics. Bought a gen4 LS harness off ebay and cut the connectors off it. Things are going really well with just simply swapping the plugs to the ECUMaster ecu plugs but it does take about 6 hours to do so for some reason.. about 80 wires.
LS2 throttle body was installed using a LS1 to LS2 tb adapter off ebay for $11, pretty sweet deal there. I'll be using some new injectors I found in my injector box as well. No idea what they are but they should work as they are 60mm and EV6 connectors.
A new cam and intake should really wake up that engine. IIRC, the LS4 has the worst intake manifold of any LS engine. So basically anything is an upgrade.
A new cam and intake should really wake up that engine. IIRC, the LS4 has the worst intake manifold of any LS engine. So basically anything is an upgrade.
600 lift cam and a LS2 intake are on it. Its going to be very decent power wise.
Just a recap, I am building the LS4 electronics package (relays/ECU/TCU/DBW) and adapting it to the LQ1 i've been running since I bought this a few years ago.
The harness is done less connection to the fiero itself which I'll create a small connector for. These will run relay outputs from the harness to things that need to be turned on and off, as well as some of the power and grounds coming in from the chassis.
Grand Prix GXP pedal was installed using mostly just the stock hardware... its shady but it seems strong enough and feels great position wise. Was fun removing the throttle cable for sure.
New injectors are installed, some random 500cc LS injectors I had laying around as they are the correct EV6 connector for the LS4 harness. Throttle body was adapted using a LS1 (was originally upgraded on the LQ1 swap) to a LS2 throttle body... of course it didnt work but it just needed some slight help with a dremel.
Tomorrow I should be able to update that the relays were installed onto the harness and the harness made its way into the car with a 10gang connector of some sort.
Tried installing a new seat today that didnt work out very well, probably just going to swap back to the old one for the time being.
Finished the relay bank (7 relays) but I did not assign them to outputs yet so a little work to do there. Cleaned up some other harness concerns I had yesterday as well as mapped out the connection to the car.
Placed the wiring harness on the motor and test fit most of the connections. Have a little trouble with the rear coil pack connector but it should work out if I disconnect and stretch it off the LS coil bracket.
Having trouble with how to run the power wires. The Ebay harness I'm using has an unfused connection to the starter main power ring, but I am thinking about replacing it with a slightly less sketch setup. I have a battery shutoff switch where the heater controls normally go so I could run it to that area with a fuse no less.
Biggest project left now other than getting it running will be the can accessories up front, switchpanel and dash. The dash has to be converted to understand EMUBlack language, but other than that I really just need to give them power and ground I guess.
Very little progress today. Generally routed the harness, made a crank sensor adapter and spent over an hour messing with the interior but getting nothing done. Might run tonight though?
I imagine after getting the LQ1 updated with the new ECU, harness, injectors, and TB that you will be able to run it at full power all the time now? Possibly get even more power out of it with the upgraded ECU and tuning capabilities? Going to play with traction control at all with the DBW?
Overall sounds like a smart plan to get the car ready for LS4 while simultaneously improving the current package. Are you going to get the LS4 and VW trans mounted on a spare cradle or anything to swap in quickly once it is ready?
I imagine after getting the LQ1 updated with the new ECU, harness, injectors, and TB that you will be able to run it at full power all the time now? Possibly get even more power out of it with the upgraded ECU and tuning capabilities? Going to play with traction control at all with the DBW?
Overall sounds like a smart plan to get the car ready for LS4 while simultaneously improving the current package. Are you going to get the LS4 and VW trans mounted on a spare cradle or anything to swap in quickly once it is ready?
Yeah, I have a spare cradle that I am preparing for the swap. I even have knuckles ready to put some VW hubs in (I should drop them off somewhere and get them modified sooner than later). I absolutely expect a little more power and I will hook the clutch switch up to allow for auto blip and flat shift as well. Traction control is really only going to come into play after I add ABS with 4 wheel speed sensors, you really cant do it in a 2 speed sensor configuration.
Tried installing a new seat today that didnt work out very well, probably just going to swap back to the old one for the time being. .
Just curious what seat you are running and why the swap? The only seat I ever found that worked for me in these cars was a Kirkey 40 degree layback (actually listed currently as a "Superkart" seat. They also have a full containment mini stock w/40degree layback I may try in the GT1 car, but not sure if the head restraints will block the window/cage opening too much yet.
Just curious what seat you are running and why the swap? The only seat I ever found that worked for me in these cars was a Kirkey 40 degree layback (actually listed currently as a "Superkart" seat. They also have a full containment mini stock w/40degree layback I may try in the GT1 car, but not sure if the head restraints will block the window/cage opening too much yet.
Its a standard 17 degree layback kirkey style (I forget the brand, and hell I've bought 2 of these seats lol). I'm putting my racetech containment seat in soon but its going to be a bit involved. As you may know the cage really puts pressure on you head space so you need to shift the seat into the gas tank a few inches for ideal clearance to the bars. The containment seat part doesnt interfere a ton but its not going to be any easier to get in and out with it, lol.
Update on last nights progress... Finished running wires to the relays, mounted all the new electronics and buttoned up some other things such as the power, grounds, and starter button. Really found myself staring at things knowing I wasnt able to do them "the way I wanted" due to the fact I dont have a nutsert kit and was missing a few key connectors for some of the power and ground wires.
Didnt make it to the race at Lime Rock with the Fiero. Ended up taking my s2000 and it lunch'd the clutch first session... swapped it with some parts I found around and a trip to an autozone an hour away... anyway super fun weekend there and the s2000 was an absolute monster around that track.
Fiero however isnt far off. I gave up on trying to take it around the time that I did not instantly have a clean and understood crank signal in the ECU. The EMUBlack is far from the ECU of choice when trying to run a 30 year old GM v6 as they are a company based in poland and nearly only work on german stuff. I introduced the cam sensor and tried a few different configurations of the 7x crank trigger but I have not quite figured out where I need to be so I am working with support on getting a solid answer on how I should move forward. I'll update with the solution when I have it.
Otherwise, working on the details and I have a few more sensors to button up wiring on, fuel/oil/IAT, mount the coils and finally use some of my nutsert kit.
I will say I am extremely excited to see what this motor has in it with a proper fuel injection setup as it seems to rev like an absolute monster compared to what it was on the stock ECU. I am now shooting to make a hill climb event with it in a few weeks, although my entry has not been accepted yet.
Validated the "ignore the 7th tooth" trigger mode runs very well on the timing light last night... All systems are go for the hillclimb. https://empirehillclimb.com/
Have a pile of cosmetic and mounting of the new wire/ecu stuff to do. I also need to run through the rear control arms and refresh them.
Well, everything went flawlessly this weekend. Passed tech without any issues. Drove like a demon even after my friend rolled his cosworth Mercedes... Managed a class record until my friend Evan smashed it... Fellow 3800 enthusiast Brian took home an overall record this weekend as well.
The twin dual cam didn't disappoint as with the exception of Evan all the cars I beat were at or well over the 500hp mark.
My friends brought gopros but were missing when it was time to run, and nobody was able to get spectator videos... pretty sad about it.. I heard that the fiero was one of the more exciting runs because I was slowing down the least for the corners, lol.
My friend Brian ended up using some of the steering parts off the fiero after he busted his, this is a video of a few of his runs and new record. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbd2N68yYgE
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-19-2022).]
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