quote Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: I doubt you are losing 8 lbs. with the radio and small speakers but lost weight is lost weight. If you want to lose some significant weight, drill out the inner door shell.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: I weighed the removed parts to come up with that 8 lb figure. I'll leave my door beams and bumpers alone, I'm not really into weight reduction mods that adversely affect safety/comfort/appearance. I did the low-hanging fruit, but it stops there.

I never said anything about removing door beams.

You can show me where I "adversely affect safety/comfort/appearance"

The discussion led to door beams after inner shells... follow the conversation better.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: It's a different feel than Don's, having the long shifting delays and respooling after each shift.

Have you thought about enabling Flatshift?

quote Originally posted by Honest Don: Have you thought about enabling Flatshift?

In a traditional manual transmission powertrain, the engine is one entity (that is fully characterized by RPM/load), and the transmission is an independent entity. There does not need to be any interaction between the two systems.

Having any sort of automated interaction between the two systems seems like a driving aid to me, so it's a little bit contrary to my idea of a "pure sports car".

That said, I could change my mind one day, so when I did the wiring plan, I reserved a spot on the MS3X DB-37 connector for an eventual clutch switch. If I wanted to go this way, I would need to implement a clutch switch, probably with a permanent magnet + reed switch. It would not be overly difficult. Do reed switches bounce?

Edit: I was also thinking of trying flatshift without a clutch switch. In that plan, the ECU would recognize that if the driver hits the rev limiter but keeps his foot floored, it's because he wants a flatshift. So in that case, the RPM would be limited to some value above the expected RPM in the next gear. When the clutch grabs and brings the RPM down, the ECU knows the transmission is in-gear again, and the usual rev limiter can apply.

I like the idea of the software-only mod, since it's fully reversible, and more of a challenge to implement.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 01-17-2021).]

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle:That said, I could change my mind one day, so when I did the wiring plan, I reserved a spot on the MS3X DB-37 connector for an eventual clutch switch. If I wanted to go this way, I would need to implement a clutch switch, probably with a permanent magnet + reed switch. It would not be overly difficult. Do reed switches bounce?

If they bounce, it can’t be much. If you’re looking for fancy, what about using a prox switch? No magnet necessary.

Do you use that as an axis limit switch for machine tools?

Thinking about it some more, bounce is a moot point for a clutch switch.

In the real world, a driver could potentially hold the clutch pedal at the switchpoint transition indefinitely (perhaps oscillating about the transition), so the code must be written to work correctly with that input.

In that case, I might as well use a reed switch, even if it does bounce, considering that it can be a much simpler install (one wire grounding to chassis). No power needed.

With further reflection, I remembered that I used a reed switch for my backup lamps:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/142564.html

If I could use the same reed switch as for my backup lamps, that would be nice. I like parts standardization, where appropriate.

These days, removing a Fiero's door impact beam probably doesn't matter. If a 2020 Malibu hits you, it's going through the door glass. The only thing low enough to hit a Fiero's side impact beam is a McLaren. Maybe the best solution for driver safety is to lower the car an increase the chance you just go underneath.

I did this - twice, actually.

A company called Miller Woods used to offer a packaged kit to install an IHI turbo on a stock Fiero that would give 190-200 bhp reliably. I enjoyed the car (an 88 GT) for awhile but was building an improved engine for higher output at the same time.

I sourced a long stroke crankshaft out of a 3.1 (also used later in the 3.4) and had some special forged pistons made up to withstand higher boost (compression lowered to 8.5), a custom turbo friendly cam, various durability mods and several modifications to inlet and exhaust that removed bottlenecks. The result was 300 bhp and very significantly enhanced performance we were getting 0-60 in less than 5 sec. and 1/4 time right at 13 secs. It required premium gas and had a knock sensor that backed off timing if necessary as well as an over boost protector that cut fuel if you got too high (somewhere in the 10-12 psi range you hit the point where there is no gain with increased boost without installing an intercooler, which is a right PITA in a Fiero.

I drove the result for 15 years or so before I moved on to newer challenges and sold it. The car looked dead stock and was a lot of fun when other cars tried to out accelerate it as the weight at the rear of the Fiero favours excellent traction. It was faster than cars like the NSX and a dead heat with the twin turbo Toyota Supras.

A lot of people here will tell you not to waste your time on an engine with all the inherent breathing limitations of the cast iron headed V6, but I had a great time with it. Today I would have started with a 3.4 engine but they weren't available used yet when I did it.

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: These days, removing a Fiero's door impact beam probably doesn't matter. If a 2020 Malibu hits you, it's going through the door glass. The only thing low enough to hit a Fiero's side impact beam is a McLaren. Maybe the best solution for driver safety is to lower the car an increase the chance you just go underneath.

To add a serious note... impact beam height is actually set by the NHTSA... so yes, a 2020 Malibu would his the impact beam, because it's impact beam is at the same height.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Do you use that as an axis limit switch for machine tools? Thinking about it some more, bounce is a moot point for a clutch switch. In the real world, a driver could potentially hold the clutch pedal at the switchpoint transition indefinitely (perhaps oscillating about the transition), so the code must be written to work correctly with that input. In that case, I might as well use a reed switch, even if it does bounce, considering that it can be a much simpler install (one wire grounding to chassis). No power needed. With further reflection, I remembered that I used a reed switch for my backup lamps: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/142564.html If I could use the same reed switch as for my backup lamps, that would be nice. I like parts standardization, where appropriate.

They get used all over. Good reliability and repeatability.


I'm with you on parts standardization. The less spares that need to be on the shelf, the better.

quote Originally posted by Will: To add a serious note... impact beam height is actually set by the NHTSA... so yes, a 2020 Malibu would his the impact beam, because it's impact beam is at the same height.

I don't think that's correct. The law that "created" side impact beams for the Fiero would be Standard 214 (1981?), which is a performance test. The performance test means that automakers can achieve the result ("side impact protection") in whatever manner they choose and that the specifics of the solution are not defined. The problem with FMVSS 214, we later found out, is that the performance test includes an adjustable loading device whose position is dictated by the car it's being used against. That means a smaller, lower car would have the load applied in a different place than a larger, taller car. This wasn't great in the '80s, but became a major problem in the '90s when sales of trucks & SUVs spiked and vehicle height mismatches became more common. The new performance metrics should fix that.

Here is the testing method for Standard 214:

quote Location of Load Device - Passenger Cars - Position the loading device at least 0.50 inch above the bottom edge of the door window opening but not of a length that will cause contact with any structure above the bottom edge of the door window opening during the test.

You can see the flaw when there are vehicle height mismatches - the device is aimed directly at the door. A Fiero's door is *much* lower than a 2020 Malibu's.

And, of course, we're really not concerned with two doors running into each other. We're worried about a front bumper hitting a door. Bumper heights can legally range from 16 to 20 inches, and bumper height has nothing to do with passing FMVSS 214. It's absolutely possible for a vehicle to pass 214 and still get murdered by a 20" high bumper.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-26-2021).]

After looking up a little more on that, I found that the NHTSA does not regulate bumper height for SUVs to be in line with bumper height of passenger cars, which seems insane considering their mission.

Anyway, passenger car bumper height is between 16 and 20 inches... I haven't measured this relative to the Fiero door impact beams, but it's in the right ballpark.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-27-2021).]

Yeah, there's a whole other spec for "trucks" and even that null space between heavy duty OTR trucks that require Mansfield bars and other commercial trucks. The whole thing is a mess! When all this stuff was concocted it was just assumed that regular people drove regular cars and that everything would work out. All of a sudden people started commuting in Suburbans and lifted trucks became a hobby and everything went off the rails.

The new side impact standards that are being drafted will require the static load to be applied at a specific height, so car side impact standards will be more compatible with varying bumper heights. It will still be a performance test, but you can see how discussions (which began like 15 years ago) around these standards are already affecting cars - cars themselves are taller, belt lines are higher, and windows are smaller. That's how you get a 2020 Malibu's passengers to survive a t-bone with a 2020 Suburban. The problem is that improving car vs. truck crashes means new car vs. old car turns into a pile of suck.

Check this:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqwvoBt9ZBp2gfF3L0KkVdrTvq6QSQ

This is the view from my 2002 Jaguar XJR behind a 2008 XJ8-VDP. Two generations of the same car. My hood line is below her bumper line! My Jag gets MURDERED if she t-bones me. But she does quite well against an SUV.

Asks for a Microsoft password

It shouldn't, but whatever.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 01-28-2021).]