Hi guys. I'm reinstalling my refreshed, stock V6 after a couple years (long story--other projects, out of country, etc.) I thought I had taken enough photos and labeled things well enough, but I'm still scratching my head on a couple things. First is the coolant pipe in the engine compartment that runs from the driver's side upward and across just behind the firewall to connect with the short rubber hose coming out of the thermostat housing. You know, the 3+ footer with the slight bend and the brackets and screw holes for either attaching it or attaching things to it. You know, this one:
(Image courtesy of Rodney Dickman)
And those holes and brackets are my point: for the life of me I can't remember or figure out what they attach too. I have both the factory manual on disk and a Hayes manual; none of them (nor any YouTube video I could find) show this detail. Can someone help me please? I really want to get the cradle back in and get it done. Thanks
That does. Thanks so much. I can't really see what the second, lower hole with the larger bracket slides over, but with the first hole anchored in the proper position, perhaps that mystery will reveal itself!
The bracket on the "right" end (drivers side) should bolt to a stud that's on the side of the clutch housing or transaxle. The little tab in the middle supports the wiring harness, IIRC. Should be a little nylon post (attached to a ty-wrap) that fits in the hole.
Note... You can not install this pipe with the upper A/C bracket installed. It looks like you can, but you can't. At least I've never been able to. (I replaced one of these pipes with the engine in the car. Probably one of the most difficult things I've ever done on a Fiero. Gave my vocabulary a workout. Scared the dog. You get the idea.)
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
Thanks, guys, for all the help. The diagrams showing where the mounts attach are very helpful as well. Yes, I've also discovered that merely loosening the upper AC bracket is futile...unless perhaps I once again separate the exhaust headers from the collector pipe at the spring-tensioned joint. My engine is out of the car on its cradle, so though a pain, it's relatively simple. I'd hate to imagine trying this with the engine in the car.
In all of this, I'm impressed with what a poor choice it was on the engineers point to route the pipe this way. Not only is it difficult to service, it sends the coolant running past (nearly alongside and almost touching!) the hottest part of the car: the exhaust manifold! It seems quite possible to me for them to have made the far better choice to route it along the firewall (either above or below the front cylinder bank), before directing it to meet up with the main fore and aft coolant pipe running under the chassis.
In fact, with a little creativity, the design could have incorporated running it under the heat shield (at least for part of the way). With all that being said, what's amazing to me is that I've NEVER had an over heating problem, even running the A/C at idle in the Florida summer heat. So maybe they knew something that I don't...maybe that's why they're the designers and I'm not. But still...
In fact, with a little creativity, the design could have incorporated running it under the heat shield (at least for part of the way). With all that being said, what's amazing to me is that I've NEVER had an over heating problem, even running the A/C at idle in the Florida summer heat. So maybe they knew something that I don't...maybe that's why they're the designers and I'm not. But still...
Quick question to the gang: should an 88 v6 have that heat shield?
To my knowledge it is. No literature that I have (factory service manual, Haynes manual) indicate an exception for an 88 GT. This much I can also say: all evidence indicates my engine had never been out of the car, and the heat shield was there. If you had assumed that because it looks clean and fresh now that it had been added, that's not the case. Like the engine and the entire engine compartment (and for that matter the wheel wells, suspension and undercarriage), the heat shields have undergone restoration work and detailing work. Neither the front or rear heat shield (pictured below) looked like this originally, but both were there.
It's clear now where the two outboard mounts go (see photos) but it's still a mystery to me how to attach the center mount and what to. If you check my photos, and compare with the diagram sent by IMSA GT (thanks for that, BTW--it got me started toward success). It seems to almost--but not quite--line up with a hole in the starter heat shield, and perhaps a threaded hole in the engine block under that (can't see now with the shield held in place under the remounted exhaust manifolds. BUT they don't line up on the same plane: the angle of the screw hole in the pipe bracket is pointing at the shield (and block) and an angle--not perpendicular to the plane that they are on. IMSAA GT, your diagram seems to show it the middle mounting hole attaching to a bracket that hold the wiring harness in place. If that's true, I haven't yet properly figured out how THAT mounts, but the diagram, views C and D, seem to show the middle mounting hole on the coolant pipe oriented in parallel to the pipe, and attaching to the "side" or that wiring harness mount. By that I mean, in the diagram, it appears that hole lines up with a stud whose axis is parallel to the engine block, not perpendicular to it. As you'll see in my photo, my hole points right at the block (though not perfectly perpendicular, as mentioned above), NOT parallel to the block. Thanks, guys for all your patient guidance. And I thought I had taken enough pictures......
I'm more frustrated that this place has become so vacant over the last few years that you are now 12 days into attaching a pipe with no answers. Back in the day, 20 people would have answered you the first day you posted. Here's the best I can do.
That diagram I posted is wrong. That middle bracket is only to hold the wire loom. It does not attach to the pipe. I verified on my car so disregard my diagram.
I took this with a selfie stick since I can't get under my car right now. Line my starter up with your photo and it appears my bracket is cut off. The wire loom below the pipe has a clamp that I assume is clipped into one of the holes that are in your photo above the starter.
Here is a picture from the web. I zoomed into the 2nd image if that helps. It seems he has something there but I can't tell what it is.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 04-27-2021).]
IMSA GT, you have been sooo helpful. I really appreciate it. What's going on with that third, middle hole is still a mystery to me, and with yours quite clearly cut off, you can't be expected to know. That photo you gathered from the web is, unfortunately, inconclusive also. I'm thinking, screw it! Unless something obvious rears its head as I do the cradle re-install, I won't worry about it. The pipe's secure. It's possible that's a mount point for some other thing, I just have no idea what. I may come back to ask questions about wiring loom routing and bracket-hanging points if my disassembly photos are deficient for them too. I must confess I am not used to working this extensively on cars with this much "systems" complexity (wiring, sensors, endless vacuum plumbing), and so may have overestimated how intuitive it would all be upon rebuild. To put that in context, my other recent Pontiacs: 78 Trans Am and a 69 GTO...so elegantly simple and straightforward (especially the later).
To the point you raised about how the site was more active "back in the day," let me first humbly thank those of you who are attentive to the site and for responding to me. But I can't help but wonder why traffic's down? Do you have any guess? Are all the surviving Fieros now in salvage yards (God forbid!)? Are they all running perfectly? Are all the technical questions answered already on the site (mine weren't--I looked before posting)? I sure hope it's not that interest in these awesome cars has waned. Driving mine is a joy.
To the point you raised about how the site was more active "back in the day," let me first humbly thank those of you who are attentive to the site and for responding to me. But I can't help but wonder why traffic's down? Do you have any guess?
I think a lot of it has to do with how people today are accessing the internet. I suspect many have discarded/retired their PCs and are now attempting to do all online tasks through the use of their "smart" phones. It must make for a painful experience to try and navigate an online forum using a phone. I sure as heck couldn't do it. I'd go blind trying to see everything on such a puny screen, and typing any kind of coherent response without a proper keyboard would be next to impossible.
About your coolant crossover pipe... I swapped mine with a stainless steel replacement eight years ago on my Formula. I do recall I had some indecision regarding how it mounted, but eventually, after staring at it long enough, it became clear to me what needed to be done. I'm sorry though that after all these years, I can't remember anything of any further relevance.
Perhaps you could contact Rodney Dickman and ask for his advice on the matter. He's very familiar with Fiero coolant crossover pipes.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-27-2021).]
I think a lot of it has to do with how people today are accessing the internet. I suspect many have discarded/retired their PCs and are now attempting to do all online tasks through the use of their "smart" phones. It must make for a painful experience to try and navigate an online forum using a phone. I sure as heck couldn't do it. I'd go blind trying to see everything on such a puny screen, and typing any kind of coherent response without a proper keyboard would be next to impossible.
Agreed. On the FB pages, you can see many replies to anyone's question are "one-liners" which are fine for yes/no type questions.
But someone asking what's involved in changing a water pump is often more confused by the litany of "half answers". I'm still surprised so many people are too cheap to buy a $20 Haynes manual and working completely in the dark.
Originally posted by fierosound: I'm still surprised so many people are too cheap to buy a $20 Haynes manual and working completely in the dark.
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Agreed. What's unfortunate and frustrating is how incomplete the documentation is for our Fieros. None that I have seen provide the kind of detail to answer what I'm asking here. I own a Haynes manual. I also have the Pontiac Factory service manual. Neither show this sort of important, model-specific detail. The majority of these manuals' content is in fact devoted to things that are not so much model specific as they are common across many similar cars: beaucoup info on how to service the engine internals, for instance. So much of that is common across not just other models that have the same exact power plant (in which case the details would essentially be EXACTLY the same), but are also common in theory and practice with many, many, similar power plants (and therefore readily transferable to the specific case). I don't need a manual to instruct me on how to insert piston rings or that sort of thing. Sure, torque specs and tightening sequences for head and manifold bolts are important, but even that is available in manuals for other cars featuring the same engine. What are so desperately needed are are answers to questions like the kind I've asked here. You know: "how does this model-specific accessory or bit of wiring connect up."
By contrast, full-on factory service manuals, assembly manuals and even Fisher Body manuals are readily available for my GM A-bodies (they are available for Mustangs and GM F-bodies too, for that matter). For my 1968 and 1970 El Caminos, my 69 GTO--even my 78 Trans Am--there are resources showing where every nut and bolt, every wire, every line goes. This, despite the fact that it's less necessary: these cars are very straightforward and so much of is shared across platforms--nearly identical from car to car. On the other hand, for our very unique cars with their far more complex electrical, vacuum and plumbing systems, and which share its platform with NOTHING else (or which utilized whatever parts it shared in very different ways--i.e. 84-87 suspension), there's very little documentation supportting them. I'm not stupid, I understand the demand is different and that drives the process. But this info must exist somewhere. If GM had assembly manuals for earlier, simpler cars, they must have provided them for assembly line workers who built the Fiero.Where are these manuals now? Did PHS get this stuff in the data they bought? I sure wish they would surface. In the meantime, I'm grateful we have this forum where the knowledge base of the users can help supply what's lacking in good documentation. Thanks again, guys.
[This message has been edited by Shisida (edited 04-28-2021).]
But still...
It must make for a painful experience to try and navigate an online forum using a phone. I sure as heck couldn't do it. I'd go blind trying to see everything on such a puny screen, and typing any kind of coherent response without a proper keyboard would be next to impossible. 
we have this forum where the knowledge base of the users can help supply what's lacking in good documentation. Thanks again, guys.
