Has anyone used the High Performance Ignition Coil from the Fiero Store. It is red and about $70. Just wondering if it would work better or last longer than the base one.
When I had my 95 c1500 with the 5.7L, I had all the fancy stuff on it: AFR 190 heads, Crower 212/218 hyd. roller cam, worked over 454TBI w/ cop car injectors & AFPR on a Weiand Team G 7525 single plane intake, Headman long tube headers no cat, under-drive pullies, electric fan, MSD box, DUI coil, DUI IG module, DUI distributor & Moates ostrich. After I totaled it I took all that I could off of it. I have been using the Davis Unified Ignition Screamin' Demon coil and their Dyna-module ignition module on my pretty much stock 2.8L 88 formula for several years now with no issues. I would suggest the D.U.I. products.
Has anyone used the High Performance Ignition Coil from the Fiero Store. It is red and about $70. Just wondering if it would work better or last longer than the base one.
So, a lot of people will poo-poo on this. If your car is totally stock, you're really not going to see much from it. But in reality, there is a benefit to a higher-output ignition coil, for the same reason why newer vehicles went to multiple coils, or "coil on plugs." The ignition coil is an induction coil, and at really high RPMs, the coil is unable to provide the same kind of sustained charge that it normally can at lower RPMs.
To be clear, a higher output coil doesn't mean that somehow 70k volts (or whatever it is... 40k?) is going to make "more" horsepower. All it's going to do is ensure that you're not going to have the voltage drop at the higher RPMs that you would with the stock coil, which would otherwise cause you to lose power... and that's the point. Most auto manufacturers realized this was a problem... and it's why General Motors went to the "DIS" ignition system (Distributor-less Ignition System) that has THREE double-coil packs.
In this image, this is for the GM V6/60 3.1 liter engine... basically, the slightly newer version of our engine. As you can see, each one of those bungs is for a single spark plug / cyl. They realized that this improved not only emissions, but performance of the engine at mid to upper rpm range because each plug has it's own coil... meaning each coil has more time to build the appropriate charge.
It's worth noting that the 2.8 V6/60 in the Fiero engine was a bit more "hot" than what's basically a totally identical engine in previous and later years. The L44 was used in only a few cars... Fiero, Citation X/11, 6000 STE, and some other car... can't remember. For that matter, the first year it was in the Fiero was also tuned a bit higher (140hp) where as later years was only 135hp.
It's been a long time since I messed with this, but I went with the Accel Super Coil back in the day... like over a decade ago. I also didn't want it to look non-factory, so I even painted the bright-ass yellow coil with black engine paint to make it look original.
If you're freshening up your engine, and you're doing a few other things... then I definitely recommend replacing the coil. They get old anyway... remember, it works similar to a capacitor, but it's an induction coil... and it can't do the same at 5,800rpms as it can at 2,500rpms.
MSD and Accel parts are made to take money from nubes and others and give little to show. Worse Some coils and other parts need other mod/parts or will cause problems because Hot coils and cap discharge often eat most Distributor caps.
Standard (short for SMP or Standard Motor Products) and Wells (Now called WVE) have been very good for decades. One of them is/was maker of NAPA ignition parts but NAPA often has little or no warranty. Note: Standard PN have xxxx and xxxxT for T-Series. GM HEI uses DR37 and DR37T. T-Series have 12 Months Warranty vs lifetime for Standard Blue Streak and BS is made better too and cost < $30.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
In my experience, the hi-performance aftermarket coils for the 2.8 V6 are low build quality (Made in China) and don't provide any benefits, even the Delco products are garbage these days. The only stock replacement ignition coil on the market currently for the 2.8 V6 that has decent build quality is the Standard Blue Streak, manufactured in their own dedicated ignition facility in Poland.
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 10-09-2021).]
Unless you are running a boosted engine a higher output "performance"coil won't give you any more power. On the 3800SC the GM triple coil pack is very sufficient. When I first got into the Fiero hobby the Accel performance coil was the hot item for the 2.8L's. There were a lot of failures with that coil at the time.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If the aftermarket coil is using the same stock coil form factor, the amount of iron/copper that can fit in the available space will be similar, so I don't see how there could be much improvement.
Accel DIS coils are complete crap and require(d) cutting the module location pins to install. See my Cave, DIS Ignition
When they got hot even for normal driving started fail and car won't run. Cool down and work. Return to OE coils and work again.
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Originally posted by pmbrunelle: If the aftermarket coil is using the same stock coil form factor, the amount of iron/copper that can fit in the available space will be similar, so I don't see how there could be much improvement.
"they" can change several factors in a transformer to make them hotter/colder and still be same format externally.
Wells also added better insulation between primary and secondary to block flash over cause by crap plug(s) or plug wires on GM DIS HEI and maybe other coils. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvppGNtn1Gg
Note: "Testing" HEI and DIS coils w/ ohm meter often Does Not prove they are good/bad. Primary side more so because very few Ohms... in HEI and DIS dry coils primary is < 1 ohm. Ohm meter often fails to detect shorted turns because ohm range of a good coils is fat... Example: Wells spec for HEI: Resistance in Ohms: Primary 0.2 - 0.7, Secondary 6.0k - 15.0k A tool called a "megger" test the insulation but doesn't help if a coil have shorted turns. Even that doesn't help much w/ HEI and others w/ shared ground.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 10-10-2021).]
I respect everyone's opinion here, but at the end of the day, every auto manufacturer recognized the problem with a single coil. That was, at higher RPMs, the coil was unable to provide sustained voltage to each of the spark plugs. The manufacturers solved this problem by going with DIS ignition in which multiple "coil-packs" were used. Eventually, every manufacturer went to a COP system, "Coil On Plug."
Unless you switch to a DIS type of system, then the only alternative is a higher output ignition coil to help the coil maintain a higher level of voltage in rapid succession of higher RPMs. No one should expect to "gain horsepower" by installing a high-output coil... but it will prevent you from losing power/efficiency as a result of incomplete burn... which can lead to greater carbon buildup in the EGR system, and worse emissions that in-turn produce more carbon monoxide... and ultimately a less efficient running engine. A hotter spark allows for better ionization at higher RPMs, and maintains expected performance in all conditions (worse fuel, changing altitudes, etc.).
There are a lot of smart people here (all the experts, and I mean that), but I think you guys are looking at this from a biased perspective. No one drives the Fiero anymore as a daily driver just looking for solid reliability. Everyone wants their Fiero (at this point) to be the best Fiero it can be... a $50 high output MSD / Accel / Summit / Flamethrower coil is a far better replacement than a ~$25 Discount Auto Parts OEM replacement.
...and, if you're rebuilding your engine and looking to get higher compression, or you're boosting your motor, you can get more horsepower with a hotter coil through increased plug gapping as well. This isn't a "Tornado Air," haha... there's a reason why 10+ manufacturers producing coils with 40k+ volts... and why every car at Moroso Motorsports Park (sigh, now Palm Beach Raceway) all have hotter ignition coils.
The ability of a coil to 'run' at higher RPM's is a function of the coil's Input inductance. The faster electrons can enter a coil, the better. I'm guessing that the smaller sized 'coil on plug' iron core allows this to happen? A single coil could be improved to allow a quicker inrush of current, of course.
I respect everyone's opinion here, but at the end of the day, every auto manufacturer recognized the problem with a single coil. That was, at higher RPMs, the coil was unable to provide sustained voltage to each of the spark plugs.
It is my personal opinion that a single coil ingition doesnt really have much adverse affect on our cars. My friends 87 mr2 has a single coil ignition and it revs to 7800 rpms. of course their design might be better but i feel like if the form factor of single coil had really that much of a disadvantage toyota would have put multi-coil ignition into it. Our engines only go up to 6000 rpm and loose power at 5600, so unless you increase the redline there is really no point. I think the modern coil per plug design is more for emissions and tunability then power.
[This message has been edited by Xenoblast (edited 10-11-2021).]
It is my personal opinion that a single coil ingition doesnt really have much adverse affect on our cars. My friends 87 mr2 has a single coil ignition and it revs to 7800 rpms. of course their design might be better but i feel like if the form factor of single coil had really that much of a disadvantage toyota would have put multi-coil ignition into it. Our engines only go up to 6000 rpm and loose power at 5600, so unless you increase the redline there is really no point. I think the modern coil per plug design is more for emissions and tunability then power. I think if you have a turbo or a supercharger it would make a difference but im talking about stock engines.
MSD Street Fire coil here for the last 10 years. I didn’t like the sloppy, loosely mounted coil pack inside the hoop ( for lack of the technical name) that I saw in many of the stock replacement coils . The Street Fire has been flawless on our stock 2.8L. It basically is their OEM replacement coil. Don’t waste your money on their Blaster coil. Cost now about $50 at Summit.
MSD Street Fire #5526 And it’s red (saves the paint oljoedad)😂
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 10-18-2021).]
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I respect everyone's opinion here, but at the end of the day, every auto manufacturer recognized the problem with a single coil. That was, at higher RPMs, the coil was unable to provide sustained voltage to each of the spark plugs. The manufacturers solved this problem by going with DIS ignition in which multiple "coil-packs" were used. Eventually, every manufacturer went to a COP system, "Coil On Plug."
You and others ignore GM DIS and other DIS and COP are simply Easier to wire up any non-dist ignitions.
Many engines w/ DIS Do Not rev up higher, faster or better then Single Coil engines. Replacing the Distributor solves Many problems for the Car Makers and Cut Cost to make a motor. Big examples of cost cutting... Can make a pickup disk anywhere handy in or out of the block. In the block just needs a simple hole to mount the sensor. Eliminate dist save cost making them, inventory them, casting and machining the engine to fit them. Even HEI and related have many smaller parts to make them and each cost them a lot when you need Thousands of a ICM mount screw etc. per Month.
(same for Cam Sensor(s) and disk(s) used w/ some true/full port injection or GDI systems.)
That's why Duke and Many others went to "DIS" of any type.
But have more reliability... If you ignore many other issues... ● All "DIS" have many problems like GM DIS (Actually is full name is DIS II or DIS2.) still have problems because fires 1 plug of each set Backwards and result Hate some Spark Plugs like some Botch +2 and +4 w/ tiny tip. That why a few Plug Makers still offer "Double Tip" Platinum Spark Plugs, like Autolite APP666, to use w/ GM DIS. Some other DIS w/ 2 plugs per coils but have "mods" that fires plugs "right way" for that reason. ● When a plug or plug wire is bad, that can fry DIS/COP coil(s) too. ● When you blow a DIS/COP coil can fry the ICM. ● "COP" often dies because coils or coils packs are built in or on the head assembly and gets hot all the time. Often Hotter then nearly everything else electrical. And replacing them can cost many times more GM DIS and often aren't easy to get. ● GM Duke w/ DIS have several issues because the Brick is on the Block. Harder to cool the ICM because of engine heat there and many morons remove the shield under the coils causing ICM shorts or even fires. Later Bricks have Mounting Trays w/ Small Fins to help heat sinking the ICM.
Many have HEI ICM spare in the vehicles because ICM dies often for many reasons.... Many have Complete Duke and other DIS Bricks for same reason and that takes a lot more room.
E2A---> While you often use Heat Sink "Grease" for HEI and other small ICMs... Do Not use this on GM DIS. The area where metal hits is way too big and most HS "Grease" Do Not Flow like used on PC CPU etc. Not even many plane Silicon Grease flows there. This is part of why GM installs them Dry. I use thin coat of Brake grease as part HS grease but mainly to keep out "water" on low mounted Duke Bricks.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 10-17-2021).]
….. and the original poster was just looking for a better coil for his car. I wonder if he/she bought a Blaster or Accel from the FS and how it’s working out. I don’t think he/she really wanted to rebuild the ignition system. Geez
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 10-18-2021).]
Originally posted by Kevin87FieroGT: ….. and the original poster was just looking for a better coil for his car. I wonder if he/she bought a Blaster or Accel from the FS and how it’s working out. I don’t think he/she really wanted to rebuild the ignition system. Geez
And answered at top too basically don't bother using.
Then others started "DIS is Best" ignoring "true" history and real problems w/ them. DIS/COP works well even better on some engines but mostly to make engines cheaper for car factories. More so since moved manufacturing to China and rest of the world to get even cheaper coils and a lot of other E-parts. The cost of several DIS/COP coils and module is far less then any Distributor systems then Multiply that savings to Thousands of Vehicles Per Month let alone Millions Per Year. But still Sold to Customers as "best" and "modern" Ignition systems that haven't change much in 30 - 40 Years... In another setting/world many people see... Is Same BS when MS Win8 ripping out many things to make OS work in cheap slow tablets and phones and make real computers fairly useless. Win10 just change name game tried to restore some things but little or nothing in the end for most people. Win11 is nothing more then change name again and Strong Arm the world to buy New Intel PC and make more E-waste problems but sold as "Save the Kids" and best and safer for everyone. While people like Win7... mostly still name change game and force OEM to use x64 version. x64 forces new drivers not reused/patched 32 bit drivers often can trace back to Win9x or WinNT. (WinXP had x64 version but almost nothing support it and same for first few years of Vista x64.)
….. and the original poster was just looking for a better coil for his car. I wonder if he/she bought a Blaster or Accel from the FS and how it’s working out. I don’t think he/she really wanted to rebuild the ignition system. Geez
quote
Originally posted by Skybax:
In my experience, the hi-performance aftermarket coils for the 2.8 V6 are low build quality (Made in China) and don't provide any benefits, even the Delco products are garbage these days. The only stock replacement ignition coil on the market currently for the 2.8 V6 that has decent build quality is the Standard Blue Streak, manufactured in their own dedicated ignition facility in Poland.
Msd street fire coil with 8.5 mm Taylor wires . My v6 pulls nice all the way up to the power band. My car proved it on new Smyrna speedway, I am the car passing everyone. It sure was fun. Utube new Smyrna speedway, pontiac fiero 2015. 5 min. video.
Has anyone used the High Performance Ignition Coil from the Fiero Store. It is red and about $70. Just wondering if it would work better or last longer than the base one.
When I built the 4.3 in my S-10 pickup, I bought a major name brand high performance ignition coil. I had done other things to the engine at the same time, so I couldn't really tell what changes contributed most to the increased performance. About two years after I had bought it, the S-10 wouldn't start. No spark. I had kept the stock ignition system so I just re-installed it. Honestly, I couldn't tell a difference in performance. I figured I had just wasted my money on this. Later I read an article that explained that a hotter spark can sometimes give the opposite effect as it causes the fuel to "blow away" rather than ignite correctly. Based on my experience, I have just stayed with stock systems. Maybe you could use these dollars on something else.
I thought a hotter spark doesn’t ignite the fuel better, it’s the duration of spark that ignites the fuel better. So there’s a balance between the voltage, resistance of wires and plugs that will make the duration of said spark longer. So a big fat spark doesn’t work as good as a smaller, longer spark event….
Chevrolet Performance has a coil pack in which the coils are much larger than those on the stock coil pack. This may be of some benefit on boosted engines.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-13-2021).]
