Sorry to answer the question: master has been on the car since I bought it years ago. Slave is a Dickman unit replaced several years ago. I have only put 9000 miles on the car since I bought it (“2012 or so)
The Dickman slave is the double seal design and though possible, it isn't likely that it's leaking or sucking air. Though you didn't experience any loss of pedal with the overnight test, because of the design of the umbrella seals in the master cylinder, if it's allowing air into the system, it will be on the release stroke. The compression stroke makes the umbrella seal flare outward and the release stroke can allow it to fold inward a bit and let air pass.
Did Plan B last night and blocked the pedal fully depressed ( and yes, it does go all the way to the floor) . Left it all night like that. This morning, removed the piece of wood, and the pedal snapped right back firm. So , if I interpret this correctly, I have no internal or external leaks. I will try to get a picture of the banjo sometime today; One step at a time! Unfortunately our main AC unit for the house got surged by a lightning strike last night, and a new unit is the project of priority right now. We have over 90 degree heat here every day now. I will get back at this once I have THAT issue sorted out. Steve
So if air is escaping the seals in the master, I should have some air in the system, right? Before I do anything else now, I should do another gravity bleed, and see if air bubbles pop up? BEFORE I do any more pumping of the pedal? The car is still elevated to do this.
If it is the seal in the MC then air probably wont be ingested until you use the clutch for a bit. One or two or 6 operations might not ingest enough to notice.
I think your problem is either seal or heat related, not mechanical.
Just to muddy the waters further... when the seal in my Formula's clutch master cylinder failed, it allowed fluid to escape from where the banjo connects. I allowed this to continue for several months before I finally replaced the cylinder. The point I want to make though is that air was never drawn into the system with that seal failure. Yes, I had to keep adding fluid, but I never once had a soft pedal.
Having said that, there may be failing internal seals within the master cylinder that replicate the feel of air in the system (soft pedal), simply because fluid isn't being pushed when the pedal is being depressed. I admit to this being conjecture, as I don't know the internal workings of a clutch master cylinder.
Steve, considering the amount of grief that you've had over the years, and the fact that this is the original master cylinder... I'd just change the damn thing.
Patrick, I have a few pictures I could send you. I am basically computer illiterate, and do not know how to post them on this website. I DO know how to send them to an email. Steve
Patrick, I have a few pictures I could send you. I am basically computer illiterate, and do not know how to post them on this website. I DO know how to send them to an email. Steve
Sorry about the repeats, when I post, it doesn’t seem to go and shows my password missing. It appears to go anyway. I assume you got the poor picture of the banjo. I am going to do a final bleed again tomorrow. Somewhere in here it says remove the bleeder valve on the slave when backing the pushrod in. I have not been doing that. Other than changing the master cylinder, I don’t know what’s left. Thanks all for all the fantastic input!
A banjo photo was what I was actually expecting... but no, I uploaded and posted every photo that I received.
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Originally posted by stevep914:
Somewhere in here it says remove the bleeder valve on the slave when backing the pushrod in. I have not been doing that.
There's no need to totally remove the bleeder valve on the slave. It just needs to be open enough to allow air and fluid to easily escape when the piston is pushed all the way into the slave. Then obviously tighten it before allowing the piston to return.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-30-2022).]
Patrick, I sent you six other pics, including the banjo. Re forwarded them to you this morning. My computer indicates they went to you. The only source for the Master here would be autozone- if they have it. Mine is the one with the fitting on top behind the reservoir. I will check today. I would rather have Rodney’s, but I have had bad luck getting stuff here from the US, and the import duty almost doubles the price. Let me know if the pics made it. Steve
The only source for the Master here would be autozone- if they have it. Mine is the one with the fitting on top behind the reservoir. I will check today. I would rather have Rodney’s, but I have had bad luck getting stuff here from the US, and the import duty almost doubles the price.
I absolutely swear by Rodney's clutch slave cylinder, and wouldn't purchase any other slave... but having said that, I don't feel the clutch master cylinder is as critical. Rodney's master is very nice, and if an adjustable banjo is also required, it's the master to buy. However, when I bought a master for my Formula two years ago, I bought the cheapest one that RockAuto had (a LuK unit), and it's been fine. I had already made my own adjustable banjo, and I simply transferred it onto the new master.
Steve, have a look at my thread Here where I discuss RockAuto's international shipping options. They are very fair!
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-30-2022).]
Patrick, thanks for the info on Rockauto. I would bet it is relatively seamless US to Canada. Coming to Mexico is a whole other matter. The main problem is it may just not get to you. I have had two US bought items that never made it here. Autozone shows the MC options on their US sites. I have had parts they did not have in stock here in Mazatlan, ordered and prepaid here, and they came within a week. Don’t recall paying any duty on them here. I need to remove my old one first to confirm what banjo size it has , to make sure I get that right. Autozone shows both types of MC, but the banjos on the web look like they both have the smaller hole for the newer pedal pin. I guess I will be dismantling some of my interior on Monday to get at it. Will post how that goes. Again, thanks for sticking with me on this; it has, so far, been an educational , if not totally rewarding process. I am determined this time to be the winner, and should be an expert on clutch issues when finished! Steve
Patrick, sent you a pic of my clutch master. Nightmare getting it off. The pushrod and banjo just fell off. It appears there is supposed to be a retaining clip that keeps it attached to the cylinder? Would this have ANYTHING to do with my problem? I have a new clutch master ordered from Autozone. But suspect it will present a problem. The banjos on all the Autozone units appears to be the small hole ones, not the larger one I have. My pedal looks fine, but will not accommodate the new unit without taking the pedal out, and machining the pin to the correct size for the new unit. Can I swap the old banjo and pushrod into the new unit?,as the old banjo is adjustable. There is a bit of wear on the old banjo hole, as it is a metal to metal contact with the pin on the pedal. The pedal looks like a nightmare to get off; gave it a try, and the main pin for the brake and clutch pedal does not seem to want to move after loosening the nuts on each end. Steve
Nightmare getting it off. The pushrod and banjo just fell off. It appears there is supposed to be a retaining clip that keeps it attached to the cylinder? Would this have ANYTHING to do with my problem?
Yes, it's supposed to be retained with a clip. I doubt that this was causing your problem, but it does point to suspicious assembly of who knows what else.
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Originally posted by stevep914:
I have a new clutch master ordered from Autozone. But suspect it will present a problem. The banjos on all the Autozone units appears to be the small hole ones, not the larger one I have.
Which style master did you order? You appear to have the older style master.
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Originally posted by stevep914:
My pedal looks fine, but will not accommodate the new unit without taking the pedal out, and machining the pin to the correct size for the new unit. Can I swap the old banjo and pushrod into the new unit?,as the old banjo is adjustable. There is a bit of wear on the old banjo hole, as it is a metal to metal contact with the pin on the pedal.
You don't want to take your pedal out. The banjo can be swapped over, but it's too bad the hole is worn. The banjo also looks bent (the short section with the hole) which isn't ideal.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-01-2022).]
I ordered the only one Autozone had, that has the hole for the line rearward of the reservoir ( the bottom one in your picture) . However, the picture on the web looks like it comes with the small banjo hole. No other option from them. They show both options, but both have the small banjo fitting. My existing banjo is a bit bent, but not drastic. It was welded that way from the getgo, by the look of it. I will ponder what to do about the bit of wear.
My existing banjo is a bit bent, but not drastic. It was welded that way from the getgo, by the look of it. I will ponder what to do about the bit of wear.
Yeah, it looks like it wasn't oriented correctly when it was welded. In regards to the worn hole, the easiest thing to do (other than getting a new banjo) would be to drill it out a bit larger (so that it's round) and have a bushing made to fit it and your pedal... or better yet, drill out the hole to fit an "off the shelf" bushing that also fits your pedal.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-01-2022).]
Got the old banjo straightened, and cleaned up. Also went back to the pedal to get a pin diameter measurement, for a possible bushing for a banjo redrill. Not a lot of meat on the banjo for enlargening the hole. While using a micrometer on the pin, I also checked the pin bracket, and the micrometer indicated a slight bend in the bracket, that I couldn’t see visually. Got that straightened as well. I pick up the new master tonight. Steve
The Sachs master cylinder from Autozone has the correct bushing. It's a plastic clip insert. The banjo is held onto the pedal with a washer and clip pin. Later years had the brass oilite bushing. Also, when you install the new master cylinder, be sure that the curl of the banjo rod is upward, or you will have problems with clutch release.
Forgive me, but I didn't see what year chassis your car is built on. The 86 (you refer to the trans as an 86 but the car may not be) is the most difficult to get the correct clutch system parts. Does it appear that the fluid line at the master cylinder has been modified or cut and spliced? Was the car converted from an automatic to a manual? This info might help to sort things out. It may be that some things were intermixed.
Patrick, I sent you a picture. I am assuming even though I lose the adjustability on the old banjo, it would be a no brainer to use the whole new assembly? There was a plastic insert in the banjo hole that I would assume downsizes it to the newer pedal pin. To Fierofool: I bought this car years ago from a Polish guy in .Edmonton sight unseen, although he sent me tons of pictures and a video. He had bought it from an auction after it had been stolen and burnt. He had been in the restoration phase, when he got transferred back to Poland. It had been built in 1996 by a car dealer in Quebec, who titled it as a real F40, which caused 3 years of import hassles, when I tried to get it into Mexico. There is a huge section on Mad Mechanics.com on my many trips to the border to try to get the car into Mexico. My understanding is that it is an 86 chassis, that the builder installed an Isuzu 5 speed into. I had to be creative when I reconditioned the clutch components several years ago because of this. The car has real Veglia gauges from a 328 Ferrari in it, which was a wiring nightmare to get working with an .American power plant. ( I had to rewire most of the car after 3 years sitting stalled at the border- mice got hungry!) So it is a hodgepodge of mixed parts, but a really good replica that drives like a race car ( I used to race a GT3 car in SCCA when I lived in Thunder Bay, Canada. ) Steve
As a quick sidenote: the new banjo is too small by just a hair to go onto the pedal pin. I guess I either fine tune the pedal pin, or the hole in the banjo. Steve
Patrick, I sent you a picture. I am assuming even though I lose the adjustability on the old banjo, it would be a no brainer to use the whole new assembly? There was a plastic insert in the banjo hole that I would assume downsizes it to the newer pedal pin.
If, and that's a big if your pedal isn't bent, then the new banjo might be fine... but I suspect the adjustable banjo was installed because the pedal is bent (and therefore wouldn't supply enough throw). That "plastic insert" is a bushing that fits the newer style pedal. The correct banjo for your pedal has a larger hole and a larger bushing (as fierofool was describing).
Out of curiosity, how does the length of the new banjo compare to the length that the old adjustable banjo was set at?
Your best bet may yet be to repair the hole in the old banjo as I was mentioning previously.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-01-2022).]
Unfortunately, the old banjo did not have a locknut on it, and spun on the threads freely, when I removed it. So I can’t really say whether the new one is longer or not. It is entirely possible that over time, the old one was spinning a bit at a time, and the rod got shorter than at was supposed to. May have been at least part of my problem. At this point, with no speed shops here, and Autozone had no bushing kits, I am inclined to try the new setup. I am still concerned even if I found a bushing, the meat on the old banjo might not be sufficient to drill out any of it. The old banjo had worn significantly, and not evenly. With the car all apart now, I have nothing but time to try the one, and if not sufficient, got to the other one with some extra work. I DID make sure the pedal is now straight- it was off just a bit.( used a micrometer to measure the gap between the top and bottom of the “U” bracket) Steve
Unfortunately, the old banjo did not have a locknut on it, and spun on the threads freely, when I removed it. So I can’t really say whether the new one is longer or not. It is entirely possible that over time, the old one was spinning a bit at a time, and the rod got shorter than at was supposed to. May have been at least part of my problem.
The fact that your clutch pedal was sitting 1-3/4" above the brake pedal leads me to believe it's rather doubtful that the banjo was adjusted too short. Ideally, the banjo length allows the clutch pedal to hit the floor just as the master reaches the end of its travel.
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Originally posted by stevep914:
I DID make sure the pedal is now straight- it was off just a bit.( used a micrometer to measure the gap between the top and bottom of the “U” bracket)
This is what my bent clutch pedal looked like.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-03-2022).]
Installed the new assembly ; had to slightly enlarge the banjo hole to fit the pin on the pedal. Bench bled the master, and the pedal is exactly 1 inch above the brake pedal. No play in the pedal/ banjo connection, where there was a lot with the old setup.Will gravity bleed the whole thing this afternoon, and see what it gives me.
Gravity bleeding is painfully slow- still ongoing.
I gravity bleed at the end of the procedure, and it runs out very fast. Prior to that, I stand by the side of the car where I can reach the slave with my right hand while the my left hand pushes something like a 1x4 against the clutch pedal. Open the bleeder valve, push pedal slowly to floor, close valve, slowly allow pedal to return. Repeat until bubbles stop, then allow to gravity bleed for a few minutes. Obviously make sure the master never goes empty at any time. Works like a charm on both my '84 (swapped in 5-spd Isuzu) and '88 (5-spd Getrag).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-03-2022).]
Well I did as you had said; got the wife to work the pedal, while I bled the slave. Early this morning, I gravity bled it, and it came fast as you had said. Bled the bit out of the slave, and test drove it. IT PASSEDTHE 50 MINUTE TEST! So yes, a big smile. The pedal hesitates to come up that last little bit of free play. I believe this is due to how tight the banjo is on the pin- I had to ream out the hole a bit to get it to fit on.it is pretty snug. I believe as it wears in, the hesitancy will go away. It does not affect the shifting or driving in any way. It will take a couple of more outings, before I will completely trust it, but it appears this is an 8 year problem that has now been solved. Guys, Thankyou so much for all your input, and special kudos to you, Patrick, who stuck by me on this, and donated a lot of your time and expertise. I hope someday, I can be of similar help to someone else. Patrick, if you ever want a beach vacation, you have a free place to stay in Mazatlan! I take 3 months off work in the summer, and use to car to keep me from getting bored. There is always something to do on something this old. Steve
...test drove it. IT PASSED THE 50 MINUTE TEST! So yes, a big smile.
In this now 75 post thread, it was back in post #13 that I first expressed my suspicions of your clutch master cylinder. That was from not only reading what was posted in this thread, but also from reviewing all your other clutch threads dating back eight years! I'm glad this long-standing battle now appears to be over.
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Originally posted by stevep914:
Patrick, if you ever want a beach vacation, you have a free place to stay in Mazatlan!
Steve, that's very generous of you, but I might have to help you a few more times to deserve that.
I have used the gravity bleed method for a long time. Not having anyone to help, there was no one to depress the pedal. Pumping the pedal can break up the air bubbles, only to come back together later. If the pedal pump method is used, the pedal should only be depressed and held one time for each opening of the bleeder.
If I'm bleeding at home, I jack the left front of the car underneath the front subframe just enough to lift the tire off the ground. If it's underneath the left front control arm, I raise it about 6 inches off the ground. This places the master cylinder higher than the slave cylinder.
I then fill the master cylinder to the top, leaving the cap off the brake fluid and the reservoir for easy refill. Next, I go to the rear and open the bleed valve. As the fluid starts to flow, I use a heavy object and strike the side of the slave repeatedly. This dislodges any air bubbles that may be stuck at the pushrod end and lets them flow upward to the bleeder valve. With the pump method, the bleeder is directly above the fluid inlet and bubbles at the pushrod end will usually stay there.
Keeping watch on the reservoir, I close the bleeder before the reservoir empties, top off the reservoir and repeat. I usually run about 3 reservoirs of fluid through the system, then when the level drops to the FULL mark, I close the bleeder and I have pedal.
When I had the incident I related previously, I ran the left front up onto a curb at the grassy edge of the parking lot. Gravity bled the system and returned the 12 miles home to diagnose the problem. I was lucky that it was an undeveloped outparcel parking lot that wasn't being used. I have bled other person's systems by angling at 45* on their sloped driveway.
We will try the gravity bleed next. The pump method seems not very effective in letting out the air completely. We'll just wait for the tires from 4Wheelonline to arrive tomorrow so we can work on it at once.
Just a final post on this thread. Second 50 minute test today, and all is well! I actually trust the car now! Thanks again to all; it has been an educational, but rewarding journey. The drive today, without worries reminded me just how much fun this car is to tackle a fast twisty road. Steve
