Just returned from the Fiero 40th Anniversary and Fierorama. I had 2 different people tell me that they use LED bulbs for their tail lights. I was told that because these LED bulbs don't get as hot, there is less chance of deforming or delaminating the tail light lenses.
People use LED because they want to stay trending. Other than that, you open up a can of worms going to an LED setup from resistors needing to be added to the light circuits to even having to change your flasher unit to an LED compatible unit. The LED lights are brighter but less broad on coverage which causes legal issues. In other words, instead of pressing your brakes and getting a bright, spread out "glow" from the regular bulbs, you get a quick "pop" with LED lights and a bunch of dots pointed at you. As far as delamination and heat, the only way to damage the tail light housings is to install a higher wattage bulb than intended. Then you'll either melt or burn the housing but you still may not even affect the physical lenses.
I converted my 85 SE V6 to 86-88 GT rear quarters/deck- and of course tail lights....I installed a couple of LED bulbs in the inner sockets (I am using the original Notchie wiring/sockets)....With regular bulbs in the outer sockets, it gave me (Sort of) sequential tail lights....Everything has worked properly for 12 years.
Note; The LED lights switch on and off quicker than the incandescent bulbs which is what created the sequential effect.
I used direct fit 1157 LED lights that just go in the original sockets. They are bright and require no rewiring.
These lights shine with a nice white light with 4 separate rows of LED's . Replaced the flasher with a solid state unit but I don't believe that is necessary with these. .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-14-2023).]
IMSA GT is close enough for a very basic summery. LED have big Hype issues & more problems & external use as "upgrade" is Illegal except Some LED HL that meet DOT rules."
"Delaminating" often is GT problem w/ plastic logo layer coming off the plastic shell/cover. Isn't cause by Bulb heat but UV & heat for sun parked outside over time.
Some use 2357 for the rear because Little Brighter & Turns On Faster then OE 2057 or 1157. Won't cause heat problems unless Maybe you have Brake Lights On for a very long time. Some used Halogen bulbs that way to Hot & can cause problems. Same problems as melting Fiero High Brake Light because some parts of plastic way too close to 26w bulb.
I watched the Big Clive video on you tube. Very interesting. I didn't know that there were different types of LEDs (with/without resistors). He said that even the real hot ones would be okay to use in "blinkers", where the light is not on continuously. Think I'll just stick to OEM for now. I may do some testing with the LED equivalent of an 1157 bulb to see if those get hot when on continuously.
I watched the Big Clive video on you tube. Very interesting. I didn't know that there were different types of LEDs (with/without resistors). He said that even the real hot ones would be okay to use in "blinkers", where the light is not on continuously. Think I'll just stick to OEM for now. I may do some testing with the LED equivalent of an 1157 bulb to see if those get hot when on continuously.
I've tested the direct fit 1157 LED lights have run them a long time. They do get warm but not nearly as warm as the incandescent bulbs. The LED lights I used are also not very close to the taillight lenses but you can find longer LED taillight replacements that aren't. The LED taillights were chosen by myself because they are very easy to install are brighter, look more modern and IMO are safer. They are 5W LED's and opposed to 8 Watts of the 1157 bulbs they replace so there is a power savings.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by sledcaddie: I watched the Big Clive video on you tube. Very interesting. I didn't know that there were different types of LEDs (with/without resistors). He said that even the real hot ones would be okay to use in "blinkers", where the light is not on continuously.
While B.C. is an electrician for many things, the statement saying maybe good for cars... wrong in many ways only some covered in my cave.
● Between "CANBUS" resistors & RoHS Lead Free Solders those alone can cause LED failures. Many RoHS solders have big problems to start & stress can fails then add the Resistors quickly heat cycle w/ more stressing anything near or attach to. ● Video Was shot before UK MOT rule changes that can Fail Inspections for various Light "Upgrades." Is not only crap HL "upgrades..." (He live on the Isle of Man.) ● NHTSA & some States hate LED "Upgrades" too. PA Lighting rule/law is near verbatim of FMVSS 571.106 but others have Vehicle Lighting rules/laws too & near no-one bothers to read them. Like people w/ "Rally Lights," Light Bars, etc, On or Uncovered & Stop by Cops to Ticket them of that alone if lucky. Even OEM installed Driving/Fog lights on new cars default Off because many places have rules when they can be On.
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I've tested the direct fit 1157 LED lights have run them a long time. They do get warm but not nearly as warm as the incandescent bulbs. The LED lights I used are also not very close to the taillight lenses but you can find longer LED taillight replacements that aren't. The LED taillights were chosen by myself because they are very easy to install are brighter, look more modern and IMO are safer. They are 5W LED's and opposed to 8 Watts of the 1157 bulbs they replace so there is a power savings.
Have you use an Amp meter to prove draws < 0.36a @ 14V to ≤ 5w? Because Often "They" publish LED power & ignore the resistor(s) power. The 121Ω "CANBUS" resistor alone in B.C. Vid link uses More power than 0.27a 194 & 0.35a 168 bulbs used in Fiero & millions more cars. (168 is OEM Bulb for Fiero "foot light" in cars w/ that option.)
"Saving Power" for a few small Bulbs means nothing to MPG or engine power eaten by the Alt.
"IMO are safer" remember that & tell it to Lawyers or in Court. That is often an Instant Win... For the Other Side.
Of course I have no Idea about our state laws but up here in Canada retrofitting LEDs on transport trucks has been legal for at least 15 years. I have no reason to believe it would be any different for cars. At the Kenworth shop I worked at we retrofitted lots of trucks as it would allow them to park with clearance / 4 ways all night without running their batteries down . They are not magic and they are not hard to install. I don't think that there is a car built now with an incandescent on it. Check your state laws. sleek
Has anyone here been cited for illegal exterior lights because they were LEDs? Can anyone reference any verifiable instances where this has occurred?
I keep hearing that the law may be out to get me because of my LED lighting (ALL of the exterior lighting on my '88 GT is LED). I have verified that all of this lighting is permitted (basically not expressly prohibited) under the Model Traffic Code for Colorado, specifically Sections 204 - 231. It makes no mention of the technology used in any of the required locations on any motor vehicle, and does not mention DOT approval as a requirement. I do not know but I do expect that most (perhaps not all) states requirements are similar in this regard.
Regarding the FMVSS, LED headlights are in the clear as well. Soft Lights Foundation petitioned the NHTSA to rule that LED headlights on TESLA and Rivian vehicles, and the Ford Bronco, were noncompliant (see Soft Lights Foundation, Denial of Petition for Decision of Non-Compliance Order) because the current regulations (FMVSS No.108 states that headlights have filaments that are considered to be "spherical/point light sources" and LEDs do not fit this definition. (The NHTSA refers to several definitions from other agencies, such as the SAE}. The NHTSA held that while No. 108 does define headlights as being "spherical/point light sources", because the performance of LEDs and other headlight technologies can be evaluated using the same criteria as incandescent headlights (such as light output) it would not rule LEDs as noncompliant. In short, the NHTSA says LED headlights are okay if they meet the performance criteria of No. 108.
I don't see it as much of a stretch to extend this to brake lights, turn signals, and parking and marker lights.
Now, if you can find me a LEO who 1. Knows any of this at all 2. Knows the applicable state codes 3. Knows under what statute he might cite you 4. Has the time or inclination to evaluate and enforce any of it
you'll get a most sincere and contrite tip of the hat from me (I'll make exceptions for cases where a driver might be pulled over for headlights that are very obviously and blindingly bright, or unacceptably dim. But neither case is by definition due to the sources being LEDs).
In the meantime, I'm not losing any sleep over my LED headlights and other exterior LEDs (all of which are in fact lower power and cooler than their incandescent counterparts , do not have or require external resistors, have solid state constant rate flashers, and do light the lenses of the lights quite evenly). Yeah... I thought all of this through and researched it as well.
[This message has been edited by OldGuyinaGT (edited 09-15-2023).]
US Cops & in other countries don't need to know what type "bulb" is cause dim or very bright taillight or weird colors etc like using Halogen or LED w/ Color Temp jacked way high. OE bulb types can get you stopped too. They can Stop you so many light problems in most places for Decades to cover here. Example: Over time other Work Staff got Stopped for lights very dim or out, Rally/Bars On or just Uncovered, Logo & other cutouts over taillight, Aftermarket Covers over lights & related then got to work & whine got a Ticket & Ex Leo supervisors often avoid the whining or did "Picard Face Palm." In some cases, some staff lived in other states & local cops there might ignore whatever then cross state line to get to work & those pay more attention. They got "lucky" because only got Ticketed for the lights.
Go thru YT etc & see fools doing same & worse w/ light issues, illegal tint glass & more then carp "Cops hate me," I do whatever I want, or the Law doesn't apply to them like most "Sovereign Citizens."
Plus dig thru NHTSA "Mail Bag" database that show response to mail/email to LEO & everyone else. In short... NHTSA does Not approve LED to "Upgrade" standard bulb because they make the assemblies are too bright or dim or mismatch colors causing dim light or light pattern is wrong or weird colors for any reason. This is Why Sylvania etc puts "Off road use only" on LED products to Bypass NHTSA & FMVSS 108 to sell right next to Standard Automotive Bulbs @ most stores.
In reality, Using 1157 or 2357 standard bulbs in Fiero is "Illegal" just for different brightness even tho they & 2057 are exact same in every other way. Because Testing Certs for 108 only apply w/ exact same bulb type as the test was done. But 99+% of cops, investigators & inspectors won't bother w/ that on most vehicles. 2357 brake side is a little brighter & turns On Faster & Many Current models use them as OE so behave as normal to them. IOW The 2357 work better w/o putting a target on you w/ other problems above. But If car has wiring problems, dirt etc in light fixtures & so on then Brighter Bulbs of any kind often won't help much if at all.
NHTSA's "New HL Rules" for Fiero & related Only applies to Trucklite etc that have LED Products that Meet 108 rules. Does Not Apply to Halogen Shells & users try to shove HID or LED "Upgrades" in them. Nor do most crap LED HL "upgrades" sold thru Amacon etc. Does Not Matter If You Think the cutoff for low beam is "correct" & other nonsense for these Illegal HL.
& isn't just "State Law" or Cops that stop you or Failed Inspections to worry about. When you wreck expect to get sued & w/ any crap/Illegal "upgrades" expect to lose & pay big time. Your I-co may void any policy leaving you holding the whole bag or even sue you for iffy "upgrades." Or any upgrades like most engine swap cars & don't tell the I-co has a bigger engine. Then pray they don't refer to State etc for Insurance Fraud because you "lied" for a lower rate.
Originally posted by sleek fiero: Of course I have no Idea about our state laws but up here in Canada retrofitting LEDs on transport trucks has been legal for at least 15 years. I have no reason to believe it would be any different for cars. At the Kenworth shop I worked at we retrofitted lots of trucks as it would allow them to park with clearance / 4 ways all night without running their batteries down . They are not magic and they are not hard to install. I don't think that there is a car built now with an incandescent on it. Check your state laws. sleek
CMVSS is near identical to FMVSS and often do same in many states for the Truck industry.
As to no car uses incandescent bulbs... Many still have only incandescent, others are a mix often in 1 fixture, others are all LED. Many taillight have LED for park/tail but incandescent for brake/turn in 1 fixture to fit space or other reasons.
For others, Unlike Cars & most light vehicles, Big Trucks often uses Standard Formats for lights. Example: Very Common one is 4" (~ 101mm) Round fixture & "DOT Approval" is attach to the fixture so when you replace for any reason can drop in whatever available from any vendor. So to swap a Semi etc w/ old standard fixtures to LED you "just" replace the whole fixture w/ LED Equivalent w/ all "DOT" testing and correct marks on them. Depending how old the truck is, may already have correct plug on back of old unit to direct fit Trucklite & other "DOT Approved" LED making the switch easier. Most need new plugs for permanently sealed LED sets. (Not sure if the plugs are standard across brands.)
Nearly all DOT/SAE marks are standard across US Canada EU UK & more. So when replacing fixtures just match the old Code String w/ the new one. See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/146377.html Example: Trucks w/ Red 4" round marked w/ SAE/DOT STIP will take any type 4" round w/ STIP code string. (Letter Order doesn't matter.)
I'm a 'dinosaur' and follow the manufacturers specific bulbs as intended which are still available than retrofitting an older vehicle to 'look' more modern.......
The few LED bulbs in my 'classic' cars are interior 'courtesy' bulbs and mainly because heat from incandescent bulbs which can 'melt' or damage the plastic lenses if they're 'on' too long.
------------------ Original Owner of a '88 GT and under 'Production Refurbishment'
