In the continuing series of "Another day, another problem"...
My brake lights no longer work. The third brake light does work, just not the two other. I'm not at home so can't look at the schematics in the service manual.
If gt all on same blue wire so something bad likely @ or after C500. maybe Bad ground burried under right body.
Need volt meter or test light to see if blue wire @ the bulbs have power. Neg to car's frame.
Did you put new bulbs in? The sockets maybe crap. See cave lightbulbs for some example. Should be 4 red taillights using 2057 but only Brake wired for Bright side, HL/parking to "dim" side.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
In the continuing series of "Another day, another problem"...
My brake lights no longer work. The third brake light does work, just not the two other. I'm not at home so can't look at the schematics in the service manual.
But what could this be?
Yours is an 87?
I seem to recall that this had something to do with either a relay or a fuse. The third brake light seemed to be wired differently (as you can obviously tell). If it's an 87, I can look in my service manual... shouldn't be a hard fix.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yours is an 87?
I seem to recall that this had something to do with either a relay or a fuse. The third brake light seemed to be wired differently (as you can obviously tell). If it's an 87, I can look in my service manual... shouldn't be a hard fix.
No relays or fuses. All brake lights GT or not uses same fuse.
Only 84 have relays to used 6 bulbs as turn/brake lights in the back.
Ok I'm home again and during the trip back I noticed the following:
The third brake light is always lit, but will light up even brighter when I hit the brakes.
None of the rear lights work. So not only the rear brake lights. Reverse lights do work, however.
The rear side lights are lit very, very dim.
Blinkers don't blink. If I turn on the blinker, only the front blinkers light up a little but don't blink.
I haven't changed any bulbs. Apparently, this happened a few weeks back as well but only briefly. My daughter was following me in her own car and she noticed that for a brief period, only the third brake light worked, But after a few minutes, everything was back to normal.
If it's not something obvious (and easy to check) like a blown fuse... then my guess would be a bad ground as well, located on the passenger side rear upper frame rail (accessed through the wheel well with the plastic liner loosened enough to bend out of the way).
I don't know if this could be of any significance... but there have been reports over the years of funky taillight behavior when the rear taillight harness ground becomes corroded and/or detached from the frame.
Watch brake lights w/ HL On & Off because rear narkers On but Dim. (red lenses not very bright even when On @ 100%)
High Brake ground inside the cabin and other ground(s) or fuses have problems & trying another sneak path sim to cave page on this. May also affect turn bulbs not turn On or just Not Blinking w/ iffy taillight Ground because not enough Load for the Blinker can.
86 FSM have light wiring spread out to several pages... Taillight Red Bulbs uses both sides w/ "dim" side On w/ HL/Parking Lights On. (Editted post above.)
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-05-2023).]
I haven't checked the fuses yet (it's really, really cold outside) but I have good hopes it might be a fuse:
If I look at above schematics, the "FAN E" fuse might be the culprit. It also explains why my coolant fan is not running when I hear the engine bay fan come on.
FanE fuses turns On the "logo" lights in the back when car is On.
Many times when have a Sneak Path w/ Tailights or front lights. Lights are "On" but dim maybe too dim to see thru the fixtures.
Pull 1 or both Taillight out then pull bulbs out of that to watch them while try test brakes w/ parking lights On & Off etc. Sneak path ground can make Both side of 2057 etc to glow dim. But may not help because sound like is "rerouting" thru High Brake. Try discon that bulb. Do Not Touch this bulb! Halogen will fail from any oil from hands etc. If touches must clean w/ alcohol.
While High Brake isn't On like many other Halogen bulbs, Long Stop Lights & bad traffic can have the bulb hot enough to blow the glass. If have real Quartz glass the glass can grow until is very thin & pop but before can grow hitting the fixture & melt that even worse.
I checked again and the tail lights are on, just very, very dim (hardly visible). Isn't there an easy way to test this? By just routing a (temporary) ground wire to the tail lights? If that works, that would get me through the winter until warmer weather. Right now it's just too cold and wet to work on the car outside.
If is a ground then yes just tap a ground to any bulb socket & ground to frame anywhere handy. May find other bolt(s) there & loosen to stuff a wire under the head.
To avoid cutting wires... carefully uncover the back of sockets or release the ground "pin" so you can twist new wire to the socket "pin."
Or can use various "vampire" taps like https://www.amazon.com/Lock...-10-22/dp/B00CMC5DII that I believe is weather resistant unlike most others w/o silicon grease. Likely can find same/sim @ amazon.nl etc search: wire tap connectors.
If clean the other end & "grease" the spot w/ silicone... little point digging out the other "official" ground.
I had checked all fuses yesterday and all seemed okay. Today I had to do a short 10 minute trip and noticed the dashboard lights were now out as well. I'm not sure it's related to the other problem or that something simply got loosened when I was checking the fuses.
But needless to say I'm getting quite frustrated with my Fiero... It seems that for every one thing I fix, two other things break...
I had checked all fuses yesterday and all seemed okay. Today I had to do a short 10 minute trip and noticed the dashboard lights were now out as well. I'm not sure it's related to the other problem or that something simply got loosened when I was checking the fuses.
But needless to say I'm getting quite frustrated with my Fiero... It seems that for every one thing I fix, two other things break...
Yeah, I hate that you're getting discouraged with it... because this is the feeling people get just before the sell it off.
When a car gets to this point, it's (in my opinion), time to go through the entire car and clean / fix / replace / paint everything that's worn.
If I recall, I don't think you have a place that you can store it inside, do you?
Just curious, how are your headlights doing? Also, what is the condition of your battery? Your alternator?
Headlights are fine, no problems there. Alternator and battery are, afaik, good.
It was freezing last night and this morning I did notice however that it had difficulty starting. Mind you, it normally starts almost instantly. Now the engine was cranking for 10 seconds or so before it finally started (and I needed to apply a bit of throttle to keep it going).
When a car gets to this point, it's (in my opinion), time to go through the entire car and clean / fix / replace / paint everything that's worn.
If I recall, I don't think you have a place that you can store it inside, do you?
Nope. I wish I had. There are sooooo many things I would be able to fix in just a few days if I had my own garage. I could probably get rid of all the leaks (coolant, transmission oil, engine oil, exhaust). Replace the seat covers. Fix the dashboard. And probably all current electrical problems. But because I can't fix them, the car is getting worse by the day...
I don't want to sell this car. I've owned it for 26 years or so.
Today I had to do a short 10 minute trip and noticed the dashboard lights were now out as well. I'm not sure it's related to the other problem or that something simply got loosened when I was checking the fuses.
If the dash lights are out, that happens to let you know that your tail lights are out. Something GM did from the 60's up until the late 90's/early 2000's when vehicle lighting became controlled by the BCM.
I just routed a temporary extra ground line and my (tail-) lights came back to life! So it's definitely a ground problem. This will have to hold until spring...
I thought I had fixed it. What I did was connect an extra wire to an existing ground inside the tail light assembly (using a Scotchlok) then connect that wire to the screw holding down the engine grill.
When I did that, the lights immediately came on. So I thought I had it fixed. I accidentally broke one of the bulbs in the process so I drove to the nearest gas station to buy a bulb. During that drive, I noticed my turn signals still weren't working. So at the gas station I checked the rear lights and they were off again. Suspecting a loose connection of the newly added wire, I drove home again opened the trunk, and turned on my lights. The lights were working again so that just confirmed my suspicion the connection must be flaky. But no matter how hard I fiddled with the wire, the lights stayed on. So I thought they were working again.
So I closed the trunk and the lights immediately went off. I opened the trunk and the lights came on. I found out there was a "sweet spot". If I opened the trunk beyond that point, the lights came on. Closing it beyond that point and the lights went off.
Mind you, if my tail lights go out (loose ground), my third brake light comes on.
I checked the cables going into the deck lid, but fiddling with that made no difference whatsoever. Now to test if it was just that point at the engine grill, I routed the wire to a point on the engine itself. Same story. Only when I routed the wire directly to my battery did my taillights stay on.
Now what worries me is that apparently when my trunk is closed, the entire engine has lost ground, or is shorted to the plus of the lights.
One thing I did notice was that a small ground wire which was connected to the left hinge of the trunk, was loose on the other side. So it wasn't connected to anything.
Loose wire likely was going to the deck lid metal part. The Ear or wire there finally rotted thru. The metal is a "ground plane" to prevent E-noise getting out from ignition & getting in from local radio sources cause ECM problems etc.
In Video... look lid hinges & tension rods hitting the harness. Those may not rub thru the surface you see but wires inside or push the whole harness into the engine or exhaust & shorted to "12v" to have High Brake On or whatever is backfeed/sneakpath thru High Brake.
86 lid "ajar" & trunk light switch is on the trunk latch. That only operate when the lid is shut full. Trunk light has "12v" on orange wire & crtsy/lid fuse. pull that fuse & see if that changes things.
Sneak paths often won't blow fuses etc because of the light bulb. If can't see wiring problems, may need to get DC Amp Clamp to find w/o cutting or otherwise bothering wires. Other meters & test lights often won't help here.
Again HB ground is in the Cabin @ G201 etc. See cave wire service. Fixing a "ground" problem for taillight won't change HB light working weird.
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Nope. I wish I had. There are sooooo many things I would be able to fix in just a few days if I had my own garage. I could probably get rid of all the leaks (coolant, transmission oil, engine oil, exhaust). Replace the seat covers. Fix the dashboard. And probably all current electrical problems. But because I can't fix them, the car is getting worse by the day...
I don't want to sell this car. I've owned it for 26 years or so.
Ugh, that really sucks. If you lived near Vassen or Appeldorn, there's a huge factory with 10 vehicle bays that's totally abandoned with my family's name on the side of the building.
One end is fixed to the hinge, and I have no idea where the other end goes to (raining here as well). It is fixed to something, it didn't feel like it was loose or anything.
The 4 main ground ties and positive leads. #1. (-)Braided block/head to body ground deck lid hinge. The main braided strap is critical. #2. (-)Trans to body. The trans to body is a backup. #3. (-)Battery to body. Battery (-)post to tray. #4. (-)Battery to engine block. The big batt cable (-)post to bolt on engine hoist hook.
Positive leads (+)
#5. (+)Battery to starter #6. (+)Battery to main terminal below C500. #7. (+)Alternator feed to main terminal below C500.
NOTE. The Ogre has mentioned that if #7 is bad, you will get large voltage drops under load just like a bad ground. We all know what bad grounds do to a Fiero's electrical systems! All my life I have been a real stickler about good grounds and connections. It was theogre who taught me about those grounds and also the positive feeds on the Fiero so credit where the credit is due, all I did was to put it on a list for everyone to see.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 12-10-2023).]
Originally posted by Patrick: I believe the ground strap from the hinge is supposed to be attached on the other end to the forward head.
The pic of wire is the Deck Lid ground I said above. Lid Metal part should have an "ear" right next to the lid "framing" bolts that to hinge. Raining today can't get a pic.
If "ear" broke, check other side & move the wire to use it. No "ears" then stuff wire/metal between the lid & metal until spring then solder or other permanent fix. Wire broke the crimp new end or replace as needed.
Engine Braided Ground is just that & have no insulation. Often goes to the Right hinge or near the battery to engine Head in Fiero. Example: dorman 60213 https://www.dormanproducts.com/p-28495-60213.aspx But many GM & other OEM are not "tinned" like Dorman part.
Dorman etc makes 4 & 0 Gauge Braided Ground Straps too but most cars don't need them. Those are for Trucks w/ a lot of crap pulling a lot of power from the Alternator.
The braided straps is the main ground return from vehicle to the engine & alt. I was told caries more Amps vs similar normal wire ~ same size but get different answer as to why. Example: Many claim is wire's "Skin Effect" as Braided cable have a massive surface area but many also say Low Volt DC doesn't matter. Braided cable w/ no insulation can dump heat way faster then normal wires may have something to do w/ it use too. More heat = more Ω. Battery cables normally won't care because only running @ 100-200A for Seconds & 4AWG can't get hot enough to matter.
Rain stop temporary... I forget how the wire attach to the lid... Metal has depressed area so clip on wire grabs it. Likely you can't get same thru aftermarket but can do similar...
Note: 88 doesn't have this. Some say built into & ground thru hinges. Other believe GM just deleted to save cost.
If not that, there is an "extra" ground from to engine to frame there... other ends is bolted to "stud top" bell housing bolt on the transmission. Can put a new loop end & attach anywhere handy on engine or trans. If that it, check/clean/fix all engine bay grounds & lube w/ silicone or brake grease to keep out "water." If can't find the Braided ground then get equiv from aftermarket sim to dorman example.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-10-2023).]
Fiddling with the strap (and any wire around that area) causes the tail lights to go on and off (with headlights on).
So that was a few days ago. I fiddled with the wires (without exerting any strain on them) an noticed the tail lights would sporadically start working. At one moment the tail lights stayed on so I closed the trunk and drove a short distance, like a few hundred yards, to see if they would stay on. It seemed they did. So I parked the car and left it at that. Today I wanted to start the car again and the battery was dead. The interior light was very, very dim so it wasn't completely drained but turning the ignition key did nothing.
I just realized something... Could this be caused by something under the dashboard? About a month (or two?) ago, I removed my digital dashboard because it stopped working and put in my old original dashboard. But I left the underside cover off since I wanted to put the digital dash back in once I would have that fixed. I haven't been able to work on the digital dash yet so all that time the wires are hanging loose under the dash and a few times my foot got caught in the wires getting in and out of the car.
