My 85 GT baby just hit 100k km and the head gaskets are going, there's o-rings and seals leaking all over in the engine and it needs a complete rebuild, I got a rough estimate around $3000 CAD and while everything non-seal related is in immaculate condition it's the time to consider swap or rebuild, the vehicle has aftermarket swaybars and custom Centerline 90's rims but besides that, everything is original, even the original radio still works. Any input on the pros and cons of each option? I am already over budget but it looks like an L32 swap would cost about the same. If so what is the exact engine I can drop in with minimal modifications as searching comes up with L32 variations like 3800 and supercharged?
Originally posted by Nasta:My 85 GT baby just hit 100k km and the head gaskets are going, there's o-rings and seals leaking all over in the engine and it needs a complete rebuild, I got a rough estimate around $3000 CAD and while everything non-seal related is in immaculate condition it's the time to consider swap or rebuild, the vehicle has aftermarket swaybars and custom Centerline 90's rims but besides that, everything is original, even the original radio still works. Any input on the pros and cons of each option? I am already over budget but it looks like an L32 swap would cost about the same. If so what is the exact engine I can drop in with minimal modifications as searching comes up with L32 variations like 3800 and supercharged?
Before someone else suggests it... bottom line, the EASIEST "swap" is a 1993-1995 Camaro / Firebird 3.4 liter V6. It's literally a drop-in. Everything you have currently will bolt directly up to that engine... *everything*
You go from 2.8 liters, to 3.4 liters... which is not unsubstantial.
Couple of things you will need. - 1 hole has to be drilled in the block for starter re-location. - a second hole has to be tapped in the block for starter re-location. - There is a brass fitting which needs to be used in order to re-use the existing oil pressure sending unit. - You'll need to upgrade your engine from 15lb fuel injectors, to 17lb fuel injectors.
... everything else is good to go... and you gain ~25hp and another ~45lbs of torque. Of course, in the process, you can also gain more horsepower by port-matching your intake components, and hogging out your factory exhaust manifolds. These are all easy things you can do with a $35 Harbor Freight Dremmel. Do all of that, and you'll be at just under 200hp.
The cost for the rebuilt 3.4 engine is about $1,600 bucks. They're hard to find, but I have a source (through Advance Auto Parts) that will sell you a rebuilt motor. It's the DCC9 motor. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll dig up the link where you can buy them (shipped to your door). I think after taxes and all the BS, it was just under ~$1,800.
Rebuilding the original 2.8L engine is the 'cheaper' route AND As 82-T/A said, the 'best' swap is the 3.4L however, I bet you'll spend more on a swap.........
------------------ Original Owner of a Silver '88 GT Under 'Production Refurbishment' @ 136k Miles
The 3.4L in question is the L32 and I've seen an L32 3800 supercharged for $2200, will that fit or is this variation not compatible? I got a rough quote of $2k USD for rebuilding my current engine
The AutoZone one is the cheapest at $1,900... inflation I guess.
I went the extra route and ordered a set of worked over cast iron heads with sodium filled SI stainless tulip valves from ARI Racing... (that was an extra $800 bucks, but totally unnecessary).
My 85 GT baby just hit 100k km and the head gaskets are going, there's o-rings and seals leaking all over in the engine and it needs a complete rebuild.
My first question: Can you turn wrenches, or you'll pay a shop to work on the engine?
I agree with olejoedad:
quote
One has to wonder why the engine is having those problems with only 100 km (62K) miles on it.
To me, you don't need a "complete rebuild":
Remove the heads IF the head gaskets are shot, rebuilt them with new gaskets and repair any leaks......
I ...ordered a set of worked over cast iron heads with sodium filled SI stainless tulip valves from ARI Racing... (that was an extra $800 bucks, but totally unnecessary).
The "worked over" heads... did they port them? Were there obvious differences in the ports?
quote
Originally posted by Nasta: ... I got confused by GM's L32 in the 93-95 Camero/Firebird and Buick's L32 SIII supercharged
GM recycles their RPOs, occasionally. L26 was a 4.9 Caddy, and then a 3800.
And there are at least three LT1s, now. A solid lifter Gen 1 350, a Gen 2 Optispark 350, and a direct injected LS derivative.
I swapped in a 3.4 F-body into my 85 SE V6.....only 20 more horses, but 30 more Lb/Ft of torque....and it comes in approx' 1000 lower RPM, which is like having better rear-end gears...my light Fiero was getting to 60 in 7.5 seconds....now it has a 0-60 of 6.5 seconds, the quarter goes by in 14.8 seconds....what is really nice about this engine is that although it doesn't rev high, it has a broad power curve.....When I drive windy roads, I rarely have to shift because there is a lot of power everywhere from 2500 up to 5000 rpm.
Of course, it also looks like the stock engine- which I think is a plus....and, if you happen to be at a racing venue, and beat a guy....You tell him "Nope- just a stock pushrod 2.8....it just is very under-rated...." (Say it with a smile!)
The "worked over" heads... did they port them? Were there obvious differences in the ports?
Yeah, so... ARI Racing sells three sets / categories of heads:
Standard Heads (rebuilt to meet / exceed OEM Fiero Specs): Performance Heads (rebuilt with high-end parts to support a really hot cam, and installed with stainless steel SI valves) Ported Performance Heads (everything the performance heads come with, but ported)
He doesn't sell them anymore, because the combination is so limited. He actually only has a single set of Performance Heads with the SI Stainless Steel swirl-port tulip valves. There was a whole thread on this, and people were seeing "dynoed" about a 5 more horsepower increase on an otherwise totally stock 2.8 and stock cyl heads... haha. Anyway, he's got one set left with those valves (already installed) and then I bought his last set of heads that were ported. Minus the slightly better valves, I've seen people on here claim 8-10hp from well-ported valves. I'm guessing I'll probably see ~10hp withe port and new valves above what the stock 3.4 will give me. The stainless valves have narrowed shafts by the valve opening to allow for more volume through the valve.
Anyway, what he specifically said to me is:
"The Ported heads just have a light polish on them, but have the ports opened up for gasket matching to the felpro exhaust manifold gasket. Then the ports are blended to make a smooth transition. We don't highly polish these, which is why we keep the cost down to $350 to add the port job on."
I had to find my old e-mails, and the total cost of the cyl heads (shipped to my house) was $1,266.49. :/
It's a bit crazy expensive for a set of reworked V6/60 heads with the nicer valves... but this is my "forever car," and also my first car. Haha... like CVXJet says... the 3.4 really wakes up the Fiero and makes it exceptionally more driveable. I really wanted / want my Fiero to look totally stock, but get the most power I can from it without going nuts and modifying things. So I didn't mind the cost. In the end, my goal is 190-200hp from the V6/60... which I should have no problem being able to get from the H272 Crane Cam on the 3.4 with the 1.52:1 roller rockers, ported heads, larger Darrel Morse throttle body, hogged exhaust manifolds, port-matched complete intake, freer-flowing 2" exhaust, etc. I figure with the 5-Speed Getrag, it will be absurdly fun to drive.
The new heads are sitting next to the 3.4 Crate Motor in my garage in the big DCC9 box that's at the beginning of every single one of my daughter's YouTube Videos...
... right there off to the lower right, under the cardboard box and the Fiero tail-light. It's amazing how small that motor is. I literally have the Crane Cam in the box, the lifters, the assembled long block with an already attached set of rebuilt heads, and then the set of ARI Racing Engines Fiero cyl heads, an alternator, Rodney's 3.4 conversion kit, and dozens of other parts shoved into that big plastic crate with the DCC9 on it.... haha.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 02-07-2024).]
Remove the heads IF the head gaskets are shot, rebuilt them with new gaskets and repair any leaks......
Other issues arose which likely contributed to the gaskets failing, I can't remember the part name but something caused the oil pressure to skyrocket. That has been fixed and now I've been just chasing oil leaks and since everything has been cleaned up and dye put in, there's leaks from the head gaskets and 3-4 seals around the engine.
Nasta: Other issues arose which likely contributed to the gaskets failing, I can't remember the part name but something caused the oil pressure to skyrocket. That has been fixed and now I've been just chasing oil leaks.......
Hmmm, high engine oil pressure is normally an obstruction, and the common causes is a dirty oil filter. If the oil flow is constricted, the worst-case scenarios can lead to engine failure.......
You’re probably familiar with an oil change; do you have the history of when often the engine oil and the filter has been changed?
{EDIT}
I asked you a question earlier; "do you usually turn wrenches, or normally pay a shop to work on the vehicle?" IMHO, I'm getting a feeling that this is more the latter than the former from your comments.
[This message has been edited by Vintage-Nut (edited 02-08-2024).]
Hmmm, high engine oil pressure is normally an obstruction, and the common causes is a dirty oil filter. If the oil flow is constricted, the worst-case scenarios can lead to engine failure.......
You’re probably familiar with an oil change; do you have the history of when often the engine oil and the filter has been changed?[/QUOTE]
Oil and filter change was done last summer when I bought the car, looking into the oil leak it was a dirty PCV valve increasing air pressure in the crankcase, the gauge on my dash reads the oil pressure maxed out Whether that explains the gaskets failing now I've no idea.
I believe this is two problems: *A dirty PCV valve, which will make oil leaks, but it will not make 'high oil pressure'. *A faulty oil pressure sensor CAN look like high oil pressure (a.k.a. MAX) but I bet it is wrong.
If the oil gauge on the dash still reads 'maxed' - connect a hand-held oil pressure meter to check the gauge or replace the oil sensor.
As I said, I still think that you don't need a "complete rebuild" yet......
I believe this is two problems: *A dirty PCV valve, which will make oil leaks, but it will not make 'high oil pressure'. *A faulty oil pressure sensor CAN look like high oil pressure (a.k.a. MAX) but I bet it is wrong.
If the oil gauge on the dash still reads 'maxed' - connect a hand-held oil pressure meter to check the gauge or replace the oil sensor.
As I said, I still think that you don't need a "complete rebuild" yet......
Just spoke with my mechanic, the exact parts that need replacing are the valve cover gaskets, head gaskets, rear main seal, oil pan gasket, front crank seal and torque converter seal. The engine needs to be lifted regardless to do the oil pan gasket so I prefer to get the most work done at that point. My mechanic doesn't to do engine rebuilds so his assessment comes with no profit for him.
Oil and filter change was done last summer when I bought the car, looking into the oil leak it was a dirty PCV valve increasing air pressure in the crankcase, the gauge on my dash reads the oil pressure maxed out Whether that explains the gaskets failing now I've no idea.
a maxed out gauge is not necessarily a problem, oil thickness, temperature, etc can make the oil gauge "peg" if it is 5w30, it likely will peg out upon cold startup, and as it is idling, will go down after a few minutes of idling (1000rpm) if the car has vacuum leaks and idles high, oil pressure may never go down much below max, and it will be higher when driving, it only really goes down after idling, When at operating temp. On top of that the sensor can be broken or even slightly off, and the gauge can be slightly off, leading you to think it is pegged all the way up, when it really is only 3/4 (while driving, or with a high idle, 3/4 is normal) 1/2 or less when idling at or below 1000rpm, with the engine fully warmed up.
Nasta: Just spoke with my mechanic, the exact parts that need replacing are the valve cover gaskets, head gaskets, rear main seal, oil pan gasket, front crank seal and torque converter seal. The engine needs to be lifted regardless to do the oil pan gasket so I prefer to get the most work done at that point. My mechanic doesn't to do engine rebuilds so his assessment comes with no profit for him.
OKAY: 1st - you normally pay a shop to work on the vehicle, check! 2nd - the exact parts that need replacing and not a "complete rebuild", check!
Some will replace the oil pan gasket on the vehicle; others rather completely remove the engine from the car......
IMHO Add "rebuild the cylinder heads" with fresh valves on the list as they're out! Maybe add a new stock oil pump or a high-volume oil pump as the oil pan will be off...?
So, as I said in the beginning:
You can fresh-up the original 2.8L engine with new gaskets and seals OR Spend more for a 'swap'.........
quote
Rebuilding the original 2.8L engine is the 'cheaper' route
What is your budget?
[This message has been edited by Vintage-Nut (edited 02-08-2024).]
It's become a necessity to get it done, $3000 CAD is going to hurt and that's what I was looking at, $4000 CAD is going to be brutal. I'm too invested to stop.
Just a thought. Since he's doing the head gaskets, you could take the heads to a speed shop and have them ported and polished. Also, the exhaust manifolds (ported and rewelded) and eliminate the obstruction in the Y-pipe. Then, when putting back together, replacing the rockers with the higher-lift 1.5 model. This combination of modest modifications really woke up my tired 2.8L motor and didn't require any changes to the tune.
Just a thought. Since he's doing the head gaskets, you could take the heads to a speed shop and have them ported and polished. Also, the exhaust manifolds (ported and rewelded) and eliminate the obstruction in the Y-pipe. Then, when putting back together, replacing the rockers with the higher-lift 1.5 model. This combination of modest modifications really woke up my tired 2.8L motor and didn't require any changes to the tune.
Are those performance increasing or an improvement over a design flaw (obstruction in the Y-pipe?), I'm already looking at $3500 for the parts and labour, excluding any machining
...when putting back together, replacing the rockers with the higher-lift 1.5 model.
I believe you actually mean 1.6 rockers. The factory rockers are the 1.5 ratio ones.
quote
Originally posted by Nasta:
Are those performance increasing or an improvement over a design flaw (obstruction in the Y-pipe?)...
IMO, removing the obstruction in the Y-pipe is much more involved, and therefore debatable as to whether it's worth the hassle/expense. But porting the exhaust manifolds is simple/very quick to do with a bi-metal hole saw, and no re-welding is required.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-11-2024).]
Originally posted by Nasta: Are those performance increasing or an improvement over a design flaw (obstruction in the Y-pipe?), I'm already looking at $3500 for the parts and labour, excluding any machining
Sorry, I didn't read your post too carefully ... $3,500 seems a bit steep for the list of work you provided. But then I do my own work so I'm not really calibrated for what a shop would charge.
Sorry, I didn't read your post too carefully ... $3,500 seems a bit steep for the list of work you provided. But then I do my own work so I'm not really calibrated for what a shop would charge.
Prices have been skyrocketing post-covid, but it's also in CAD not USD
Nasta: It's become a necessity to get it done / I'm already looking at $3500 (CAD) for the parts and labour, excluding any machining. / I'm too invested to stop.
Obviously, the main portion of this cost is labor, not parts.
quote
Prices have been skyrocketing post-covid...
Everybody is feeling the pain on 'everything' and face it; auto repair labor rates will only continue to rise. The average labor rate is $125-$150 in my area, dealerships are more!
Clearly, you're in a bind when using a mechanic; a lot of PFF members work on their cars (a.k.a. "turn wrenches") for many reasons including this 'labor cost' AND the quality of the work.
So yes, "it is going to hurt" when paying a shop to work on your Fiero.......
As your main concern is 'labour', this is my view on your situation:
*IF you have a firm belief of the reliability on 'this' mechanic; trust the estimate.
*IF NOT, GET THREE ESTIMATES with a full "scope of work" (SOW) which is a formal document that describes the activities, pricing and quality requirements.
1st: Gaskets/Seals (a.k.a. 'Repair') 2nd: Rebuild the cylinder heads with fresh valves (it's wise) 3rd: Add oil pump and/or water pump (think reliability) 4th: Add any "extras" if the budget allows
Sounds like you may not need a complete rebuild - maybe just some gaskets. First thing to do is check compression and see if the engine really is tired. You may just need some gaskets and possibly lap the valves but hard to know until you get into it.
Stock 3.4 from a Firebird/Camaro is 160 bhp but some of that comes from better manifolding; you can get some of that difference back by relieving the Fiero exhaust manifolds as was mentioned - that GM didn't do the simple additional machine operation to do that on the production line is almost criminal.
If the pistons need replacement and you don't want to buy a whole Camaro engine, a halfway point is to buy a good used crank from a 3.1 engine and a new set of pistons - you get a welcome increase in torque and drivability just from doing that.
There are a couple Fiero friendly places here in Edmonton and a few techs also work out of their garages that could do the work for you.
Send me an email (my listed email here is good) - or join the Edmonton Fieros facebook page. I am not on here often, so if you PM me here it could be many days before I reply.
Mickey_Moose: Curious as to where you got the quote from?
There are a couple Fiero friendly places here in Edmonton and a few techs also work out of their garages that could do the work for you.
Send me an email (my listed email here is good) - or join the Edmonton Fieros facebook page. I am not on here often, so if you PM me here it could be many days before I reply.
Mickey_Moose:: Send me an email (Not Available) - or Join the Edmonton Fieros facebook page. I am not on here (PFF) often, so if you PM me here it could be many days before I reply.
Unfortunately, Mickey_Moose's Email isn't available on his PFF profile
IMO, removing the obstruction in the Y-pipe is much more involved, and therefore debatable as to whether it's worth the hassle/expense. But porting the exhaust manifolds is simple/very quick to do with a bi-metal hole saw, and no re-welding is required.
This also greatly increases manifold gasket life and reduces the chances of the manifolds cracking. Nice picture of what should be removed in the manifolds.
3.4 heads are a newer casting and offer more meat around the exhaust ports for running bigger headers if you are going to port the heads, otherwise they are the same.
I recommend the Fiero Store's SSI valves if they still offer them. You get slightly more flow than stock and they will bump up your compression ration slightly since they are flat with a smaller dish to them. (You'll know what I mean when you hold them side-by-side. They flow better because they narrow slightly at the stem near the valve opening end.
3.4 heads are a newer casting and offer more meat around the exhaust ports for running bigger headers if you are going to port the heads, otherwise they are the same.
Nasta: I'm looking at getting a DCC9 now, what do I need to buy besides the engine from the links posted above?
Reread 82-T/A's Post Above as he was the first member to response from your thread....
quote
82-T/A: Couple of things you will need. - 1 hole has to be drilled in the block for starter re-location. - a second hole has to be tapped in the block for starter re-location. - There is a brass fitting which needs to be used in order to re-use the existing oil pressure sending unit. - You'll need to upgrade your engine from 15lb fuel injectors, to 17lb fuel injectors.
I meant like all the covers and manifolds, would the 2.8 covers fit the 3.4 or would I need to salvage a complete 3.4 from a scrapyard for the covers, etc.
I meant like all the covers and manifolds, would the 2.8 covers fit the 3.4......
YES - the 2.8L intake manifold, plenum, timing cover, rocker covers, water pump, EGR valve, exhaust manifolds and oil pan will fit on the 3.4L.......
EDIT READ the "How to install a 3.4 L32 engine in a Fiero" link Better still - send the link to your mechanic.....Especially the appropriate Flywheel/Flexplate (from step 6) as you have a '85. Many 'steps' note '85-'86 OR '87-'88 parts....
[This message has been edited by Vintage-Nut (edited 03-24-2024).]
