I only have 2 fieros. those were and are still the projects. the others are 2 93 s10 blazers, a 2007 ford focus and a 99 f250 I forgot I had because it's been sitting in the woods waiting for a mechanic who never showed up. anyways the rest were daily drivers until about a month or 2 ago when both s10s had brake, transmission and engine issues so they are parked until I can get those repaired, focus wore through a brand new tire in 5 miles of normal driving somehow and decided to break every lug stud for 2 weeks straight and I just gave up and drove the 88
You forgot you had a truck parked in the woods? So .... you wore through a new tire in 5 miles of normal driving? Please define "normal driving". Broke every lug stud for 2 weeks straight? ( ??? !!! )
Originally posted by Yellow-88: You forgot you had a truck parked in the woods? So .... you wore through a new tire in 5 miles of normal driving? Please define "normal driving". Broke every lug stud for 2 weeks straight? ( ??? !!! )
it broke after a month or so and by broke I mean had a issue stalling out with 0 warning and could not be restarted unless you kicked the dash. no it was not the key it's something in the ecu yep the alignment decided to wear a tire like that in 5 miles of going the speed limit and generally driving nice. the lug studs were a symptom of another issue it was having. namely cheap Chinese shitty lug studs that were replaced with not parts store ones and the issue magically went away
boiled over on the way home from work. 🙁. was completely fine and started being a little goofy with the temp gauge climbing and it completely boiled over... shut itself off and everything so I hope it didn't hurt anything
got 23 miles home by removing the thermostat and refilling it with water. no idea how it lost over a gallon but it wasn't burning it. once I got it home I checked the rad hoses and they are both about the same temp by feel. as in burns your hand in exactly 5 seconds for both so probably not even a 10 degree difference with the rad fan and pump running so I'm not getting a good enough drop across the rad anymore
boiled over on the way home from work. 🙁. was completely fine and started being a little goofy with the temp gauge climbing and it completely boiled over... shut itself off and everything so I hope it didn't hurt anything
Man, that sucks... I hope you can get it figured out. I was in the same situation many years ago... had a bunch of cars, all of them in varying states of needing something. Best thing to do is to get rid of all of them except the one you absolutely want to keep (or keep the other as a parts car), and then buy something cheap and economical that doesn't need anything. Rely on the one that drives (like a Ford Focus or whatever) to get you back and forth to work, and then you can focus all your energy on the broken car and solving those challenges.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Man, that sucks... I hope you can get it figured out. I was in the same situation many years ago... had a bunch of cars, all of them in varying states of needing something. Best thing to do is to get rid of all of them except the one you absolutely want to keep (or keep the other as a parts car), and then buy something cheap and economical that doesn't need anything. Rely on the one that drives (like a Ford Focus or whatever) to get you back and forth to work, and then you can focus all your energy on the broken car and solving those challenges.
see that's the thing. since I have space I'm keeping them since at this point they are worth more to keep then go actually sell. also everything but the truck was drivable until recently when everything went wrong. figuring out the fiero currently since I'm still waiting on suspension parts for the focus. any idea why im having an inadequate drop in temp across the rad? I was thinking clogged fins but I'm less and less sure
Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado: any idea why im having an inadequate drop in temp across the rad? I was thinking clogged fins but I'm less and less sure
That was my thot too. but what do i know?
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
see that's the thing. since I have space I'm keeping them since at this point they are worth more to keep then go actually sell. also everything but the truck was drivable until recently when everything went wrong. figuring out the fiero currently since I'm still waiting on suspension parts for the focus. any idea why im having an inadequate drop in temp across the rad? I was thinking clogged fins but I'm less and less sure
I can't remember, but I thought we talked about this radiator before. It probably has tons of sediment and build-up in it. I would literally take it out of the car, clean both the front and the back with A/C condenser cleaner, and try to flush it. There's several chemicals that you can pour down there, shake that **** around, and then dump it out.
I can't remember, but I thought we talked about this radiator before. It probably has tons of sediment and build-up in it. I would literally take it out of the car, clean both the front and the back with A/C condenser cleaner, and try to flush it. There's several chemicals that you can pour down there, shake that **** around, and then dump it out.
Try to flush it as much as possible.
yeah that's the thing. I had already done that and taken it to a reputable radiator shop to have it boiled out and flow tested. also did clean the fins out multiple times now and it's still not right. I think a few of my cores just aren't correctly working as of a few days ago when the temp shot up slightly above normal and stayed there. also as it turns out the new temp sensor I bought to replace the questionable one doesn't work at all
I did not mean to discount your idea. at the time though it was having a 28 degree drop over the radiator and then after it blew a hose off from crappy clamps and was refilled it did a 36 degree drop so something changed permanently in the last week but for whatever reason it will not overheat with it being 105 degrees outside. only when it's 80 and lower
yeah that's the thing. I had already done that and taken it to a reputable radiator shop to have it boiled out and flow tested. also did clean the fins out multiple times now and it's still not right. I think a few of my cores just aren't correctly working as of a few days ago when the temp shot up slightly above normal and stayed there. also as it turns out the new temp sensor I bought to replace the questionable one doesn't work at all
Hmm... and you know the timing is right (car runs awesome otherwise), the cooling tubes are not kinked, and the waterpump is good? The only thing at that point I can think of is that it has to be the radiator at that point.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hmm... and you know the timing is right (car runs awesome otherwise), the cooling tubes are not kinked, and the waterpump is good? The only thing at that point I can think of is that it has to be the radiator at that point.
water pump is new but it's a duralast so who knows. timing has been verified a few times now but is right on the money. tubes look fine? only one that looks like it's been damaged is for the Heater core. gonna blast the rad cores out with higher pressure water and soap for a few hours
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hmm... and you know the timing is right (car runs awesome otherwise), the cooling tubes are not kinked, and the waterpump is good? The only thing at that point I can think of is that it has to be the radiator at that point.
The radiator has been flushed by a radiator shop. The inlet-outlet Delta-T is roughly 30 deg. I haven't seen any info on what it should be but it must be published some ware. Outside temp and relative humidity will affect Delta-T.
This seems to be intermittent . A clogged radiator won't do that.
What's going on in the thermostat housing? That's where temp is regulated. I don't know if a T-Stat can stick intermittently. A new T-Stat and its cap are a cheap easy test.
The radiator has been flushed by a radiator shop. The inlet-outlet Delta-T is roughly 30 deg. I haven't seen any info on what it should be but it must be published some ware. Outside temp and relative humidity will affect Delta-T.
This seems to be intermittent . A clogged radiator won't do that.
What's going on in the thermostat housing? That's where temp is regulated. I don't know if a T-Stat can stick intermittently. A new T-Stat and its cap are a cheap easy test.
That's a good point... have you (Carter Carbs) looked at the thermostat cap and the radiator cap? The "new" replacement (aftermarket) GM-style ones are garbage, and actually don't even seal. Ogre has a picture that shows the comparison between the old ones and the new ones, and the gasket diameter is significantly smaller, to the point that almost none of the gasket is actually sealing... and it can cause massive overheating above a certain temperature (where the pressure causes the gasket to give way temporarily).
Thermostat should be an easy fix.. just get one of the ones that fail open... by STANT I think.
The radiator has been flushed by a radiator shop. The inlet-outlet Delta-T is roughly 30 deg. I haven't seen any info on what it should be but it must be published some ware. Outside temp and relative humidity will affect Delta-T.
This seems to be intermittent . A clogged radiator won't do that.
What's going on in the thermostat housing? That's where temp is regulated. I don't know if a T-Stat can stick intermittently. A new T-Stat and its cap are a cheap easy test.
could be a possibility. I did put a 180 Dorman one in that got flattened somehow after it was heat cycled. put the stock 195 in and it didn't overheat for months afterwards but I changed the distributor and set timing to stock at the same time. it is worth noting that on antifreeze it will overheat every time its driven but not with straight water. also remember that the radiator is no longer having much of a difference across its cores anymore. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna throw the 3 core champion in and do the larger fan blade mod and if it still overheats then I give up and im replacing everything
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's a good point... have you (Carter Carbs) looked at the thermostat cap and the radiator cap? The "new" replacement (aftermarket) GM-style ones are garbage, and actually don't even seal. Ogre has a picture that shows the comparison between the old ones and the new ones, and the gasket diameter is significantly smaller, to the point that almost none of the gasket is actually sealing... and it can cause massive overheating above a certain temperature (where the pressure causes the gasket to give way temporarily).
Thermostat should be an easy fix.. just get one of the ones that fail open... by STANT I think.
yeah new caps for both. front is the junky lever style but is better than the stock one it had (spring gave out) I've tried a new thermostat and no thermostat for awhile now and it's not shutting off with no stat so I think I'm losing capacity somewhere. especially since the fan has to run constantly
somehow about a half gallon of water gas gone missing from the system. plus the entire reservoir and its not in the oil and I can't find a leak yet and no sign of water in the exhaust. I'm kinda stumped now since that doesn't make any sense and was totally fine without a reservoir working properly. I did headgaskets and I'm really hoping those didn't fail again since that's alot of work and takes this 88 completely out of commission for awhile which sucks because its fun and has ac that works sometimes (very welcome in the 100 degree heatwave). I'm at a loss currently as to what it's doing and why. everytime I think I have it figured out it really likes to throw a curve ball. like the number one spark plug being loose somehow. it was fine a few days ago but not now I guess
cleaned the rad and unbent some fins just for the hell of it really. it's flowing perfectly fine. the thermostat was tested in boiling water and sat in there for 10 minutes and did not even manage to open a quarter of the way. so that's a smoking gun alright. also put in the 5th new radiator fan relay and it's finally not trying to spin at 2 different speeds and actually spinning at about 3x the speed so I guess I finally got a good one. honestly I'm starting to think I've been getting crap parts for the entirety of the ownership of this car since every time something is fixed it breaks again. also if it overheats one more time I'm going to throw that radiator in a box and order the 3 row champion and Rodney's upgraded fan and if it somehow manages to overheat then I know exactly what the issue is. which will have to be coolant pipes or the engine is somehow running that hot
i have the three row Champion radiator and a vent for the rad too, and my fan never comes on. Perhaps the thermosyphon is enuf for here in Canada.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Originally posted by cartercarbaficionado:cleaned the rad and unbent some fins just for the hell of it really. it's flowing perfectly fine. the thermostat was tested in boiling water and sat in there for 10 minutes and did not even manage to open a quarter of the way. so that's a smoking gun alright. also put in the 5th new radiator fan relay and it's finally not trying to spin at 2 different speeds and actually spinning at about 3x the speed so I guess I finally got a good one. honestly I'm starting to think I've been getting crap parts for the entirety of the ownership of this car since every time something is fixed it breaks again. also if it overheats one more time I'm going to throw that radiator in a box and order the 3 row champion and Rodney's upgraded fan and if it somehow manages to overheat then I know exactly what the issue is. which will have to be coolant pipes or the engine is somehow running that hot
If it helps... I've had really good luck shopping on Rock Auto. Specifically because I can pick and choose the parts I want to buy. Most times, the stuff on clearance is actually the better / older parts made either in the United States, or in Taiwan. Sometimes the parts are also top of the line parts, but clearanced because they're in older packaging. Either way, I've ... saved (?) a lot of money that I would have otherwise have had to spend more on just getting whatever the local auto parts store had. I've always had good luck with NAPA... honestly, the only local auto parts store I actually trust.
As for the cyl head... you probably know this way better than I do... but the cyl head on the Iron Duke is VERY prone to cracking. It's like one of the most common failures in these cars. I've cracked one myself, and basically had to junk it. I'm sending out (just cost of shipping) a spare 87-88 Iron Duke cyl head to someone who did the same thing on their 88 4-cyl Fiero.
yeah new caps for both. front is the junky lever style but is better than the stock one it had (spring gave out) I've tried a new thermostat and no thermostat for awhile now and it's not shutting off with no stat so I think I'm losing capacity somewhere. especially since the fan has to run constantly
After re-reading this thread a few times it's clear that not a lot of actual problem solving has been done. There has been a lot of shotgun in the dark type stuff as well as getting "stuck" on an idea. There is no time line in the thread. No cause and effect data. What changed what when.
One can hurt one's brain doing that. Please don't hurt your brain.
A cooling system has a pressure spec as well as a temperature one. Any tiny leak will lower the pressure. Pressure changes the boiling point. Coolant that is in contact with the water jacket is hotter than than what the T-Stat sees. Supper hot coolant mixes with the cooler coolant returning from the radiator so the average is what the T-Stat sees. There are actually little areas where coolant would boil if the pressure is to low. To boil, meaning a phase change. Again, pressure changes boiling point.
Also the front cap needs to open at the set pressure because too much will raise the boiling point too far. When it does open, the boiling point lowers resulting in wide spread boiling. Steam bomb.
New cap? "Front is the junky lever style but is better than the stock one .... " Has the system been pressure tested? How are the matting surfaces where the caps and T-Stat seal? Are they really sealing? Is the front cap opening at the specified pressure? I think it's 15 PSI. Can anyone verify that spec?
Amazingly, coolant capacity lose can happen without you seeing it. You may not see any liquid on the ground because it escaped as a gas when you weren't looking.
Anti freeze should be diluted, not straight. I don't know how that effects boiling point or if it's different than pure water. ( ??? )
Earlier you said that your T-Stat housing temp was 207 Deg F. That may be high because the T-Stat is set at 195. ( ? ) If you have a 200 Deg fan switch ( ? ) that explains the fan running. The stock one is 210 Deg. ( I think I lost my temp gun. Can someone verify that T-Stat housing reading for us?)
After re-reading this thread a few times it's clear that not a lot of actual problem solving has been done. There has been a lot of shotgun in the dark type stuff as well as getting "stuck" on an idea. There is no time line in the thread. No cause and effect data. What changed what when.
One can hurt one's brain doing that. Please don't hurt your brain.
A cooling system has a pressure spec as well as a temperature one. Any tiny leak will lower the pressure. Pressure changes the boiling point. Coolant that is in contact with the water jacket is hotter than than what the T-Stat sees. Supper hot coolant mixes with the cooler coolant returning from the radiator so the average is what the T-Stat sees. There are actually little areas where coolant would boil if the pressure is to low. To boil, meaning a phase change. Again, pressure changes boiling point.
Also the front cap needs to open at the set pressure because too much will raise the boiling point too far. When it does open, the boiling point lowers resulting in wide spread boiling. Steam bomb.
New cap? "Front is the junky lever style but is better than the stock one .... " Has the system been pressure tested? How are the matting surfaces where the caps and T-Stat seal? Are they really sealing? Is the front cap opening at the specified pressure? I think it's 15 PSI. Can anyone verify that spec?
Amazingly, coolant capacity lose can happen without you seeing it. You may not see any liquid on the ground because it escaped as a gas when you weren't looking.
Anti freeze should be diluted, not straight. I don't know how that effects boiling point or if it's different than pure water. ( ??? )
Earlier you said that your T-Stat housing temp was 207 Deg F. That may be high because the T-Stat is set at 195. ( ? ) If you have a 200 Deg fan switch ( ? ) that explains the fan running. The stock one is 210 Deg. ( I think I lost my temp gun. Can someone verify that T-Stat housing reading for us?)
Back to basics. T-Stat and pressure caps.
thats because the work on the cooling system is spread over multiple months and forums and alot of stuff never got documented. and I do understand how a cooling system functions as the rest of my cars won't overheat its litterally just the 88 that does. as it turns out in the post from earlier it was going into the reservoir at over 230 degrees and boiling off due to the system getting hot enough to weaken the spring In the cap especially as soon as it was able to make pockets of superheated steam. pressure test is fine so headgaskets seem to be fine and the only place it's losing water is through the terribly fitting fierostore reservoir that had to have the chassis hammered to fit. also finally got the stupid fan to pull air properly through the radiator so I guess the 17th radiator fan relay was finally the good one.
i have the three row Champion radiator and a vent for the rad too, and my fan never comes on. Perhaps the thermosyphon is enuf for here in Canada.
I'm considering a hoodvent/scoop but I want one that won't look dumb sitting on basically the front of the hood. and yeah apparently that champion can cool a 383 stroker so I'm sure it would fix my issues immediately
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: If it helps... I've had really good luck shopping on Rock Auto. Specifically because I can pick and choose the parts I want to buy. Most times, the stuff on clearance is actually the better / older parts made either in the United States, or in Taiwan. Sometimes the parts are also top of the line parts, but clearanced because they're in older packaging. Either way, I've ... saved (?) a lot of money that I would have otherwise have had to spend more on just getting whatever the local auto parts store had. I've always had good luck with NAPA... honestly, the only local auto parts store I actually trust.
As for the cyl head... you probably know this way better than I do... but the cyl head on the Iron Duke is VERY prone to cracking. It's like one of the most common failures in these cars. I've cracked one myself, and basically had to junk it. I'm sending out (just cost of shipping) a spare 87-88 Iron Duke cyl head to someone who did the same thing on their 88 4-cyl Fiero.
It's awesome you discovered the culprit.
surprisingly the only head I ever had crack was on a 305 international v8. and thank gosh the v6 heads don't like to warp or bust gaskets after overheating to 300 degrees once or twice as long as you let it cool at its own pace (I've done that every time because it's usually a battle to find water when it was popping hoses off randomly) so.im very thankful for that. i am unfortunately not going to be able to drive the car for awhile since the replacement muffler off of my 87 gt exploded extremely violently. I'll post a picture later but safe to say I think the engine is having some tuning related issues
not sure. can't drive it due to having no exhaust atm but idling in place for 20 minutes to try and cure some jbweld exhaust weld didn't get it to overheat so it might be ok? still needs the airdam and I'm thinking about integrating a cowl induction style scoop onto the hood but only making it functional in the front around the radiator since I don't much care for the look of vents
finally got some hot days and it's been 85 degrees and it finally started to overheat again and make some interesting noises so I'm not sure what's going on but I'm gonna try that better fan mod and the low temp fan switch to try and remedy this again. also getting a bumperpad air dam to graft to the aero style front end
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: The morbidly-curious side of me would really like to see this. I imagine a muffler with a huge blast hole in the side.
ask and you shall receive
[This message has been edited by cartercarbaficionado (edited 07-15-2024).]
That's serious car guy art. I can see it hanging on wall of the local muffler shop.
just got the ocelot exhaust. ordered stainless steel since its supposed to be alot more free flowing, resistant to backfires, etc and a quick and dirty test fit (no clamps or mounts since they were out of hardware when i ordered everything from the manifolds back) sounds just as mean and loud as the day I fell in love with this car. no pops or anything and a scream like a banshee up to 6700 rpm just like it was meant to. will post a video link when I get it fully together and take it to watch a race this weekend
I think my headgaskets are bad again. no water in the oil but it's losing a gallon or so of water everytime it's running for like 20 minutes with no external leaks and a decent amount of what feels like steam for the first 5 or so minutes of running I legit only put 5k on these new felpro headgaskets and bolts so uhh screw me I guess. I got a set of rol or roi gaskets that might be better. update: overheated with the light on according to the engine sensors. pulled over vented the rad cap and took the thermostat out and it's not open. 5th one and it's not opening either and I just don't get it.
I think my headgaskets are bad again. no water in the oil but it's losing a gallon or so of water everytime it's running for like 20 minutes with no external leaks and a decent amount of what feels like steam for the first 5 or so minutes of running I legit only put 5k on these new felpro headgaskets and bolts so uhh screw me I guess. I got a set of rol or roi gaskets that might be better. update: overheated with the light on according to the engine sensors. pulled over vented the rad cap and took the thermostat out and it's not open. 5th one and it's not opening either and I just don't get it.
So apparently the over heating is not fixed.
No water in the oil. The oil on the stick look clear and clean. No leaks into an oil passage at head gasket. Verified.
If a head gasket leaked water vapor to the atmosphere, than a pressure test would show it. Pressurized cool liquid might be visible where high pressure steam can disappear into the wind under the car. There used to be a florescent dye that would find molecule sized holes. Lights up under ultra violet light. No clue about where to get it.
Or ... drain the system and smoke test it. Has anybody tried that?
No water in the oil. The oil on the stick look clear and clean. No leaks into an oil passage at head gasket. Verified.
If a head gasket leaked water vapor to the atmosphere, than a pressure test would show it. Pressurized cool liquid might be visible where high pressure steam can disappear into the wind under the car. There used to be a florescent dye that would find molecule sized holes. Lights up under ultra violet light. No clue about where to get it.
Or ... drain the system and smoke test it. Has anybody tried that?
oil is burnt looking Since its been 5k miles and needs to he changed. no leaks under the car but there is a weird residue near the frame rail by the air filter. as soon as the stat is out it stops overheating though.
oil is burnt looking Since its been 5k miles and needs to he changed. no leaks under the car but there is a weird residue near the frame rail by the air filter. as soon as the stat is out it stops overheating though.
"... weird residue ..." What's in the cooling system? There is a coolant hose "near the frame rail by the air filter".
How did that T-Stat get crushed? Did the cap seal get damaged when that happened? Is the one in there now "known good"? When was it's last pressure test?
"... weird residue ..." What's in the cooling system? There is a coolant hose "near the frame rail by the air filter".
How did that T-Stat get crushed? Did the cap seal get damaged when that happened? Is the one in there now "known good"? When was it's last pressure test?
If your loosing coolant, than there is a leak.
straight water with some wster wetter to prevent corrosion is in the system. and has been for months but gets changed regularly to prevent any problems idk man. I put it in and it overheated so I waited undid the thermostat cap and the little metal tang that you use to remove the Stat was crushed flat against the housing cap but didn't damage the cap. no idea. it's new? old one was known good until it stopped opening completely unexplainably (tested in boiling water for 45 minutes and it didn't open) and I forgot to test the new one. system just passed a pressure test to 20 psi for 5 hours so heck if I know.
straight water with some wster wetter to prevent corrosion is in the system. and has been for months but gets changed regularly to prevent any problems idk man. I put it in and it overheated so I waited undid the thermostat cap and the little metal tang that you use to remove the Stat was crushed flat against the housing cap but didn't damage the cap. no idea. it's new? old one was known good until it stopped opening completely unexplainably (tested in boiling water for 45 minutes and it didn't open) and I forgot to test the new one. system just passed a pressure test to 20 psi for 5 hours so heck if I know.
The T-Stat was crushed because it wasn't seated fully when you forced the cap on. Easy error. Knowing the story of bad new parts, yaeh ... test a new T-Stat before installing it. This is the new world.
If you pressure tested from just the radiator cap than you did half a test. The radiator cap is part of the system. You need to test from the T-Sat cap also. The radiator cap opens at roughly 15 PSI. If it opens at too low or too high a pressure, than you found a problem.
I'm sure there is a way to test just a cap by it self but I don't know how.
The T-Stat was crushed because it wasn't seated fully when you forced the cap on. Easy error. Knowing the story of bad new parts, yaeh ... test a new T-Stat before installing it. This is the new world.
If you pressure tested from just the radiator cap than you did half a test. The radiator cap is part of the system. You need to test from the T-Sat cap also. The radiator cap opens at roughly 15 PSI. If it opens at too low or too high a pressure, than you found a problem.
I'm sure there is a way to test just a cap by it self but I don't know how.
I hate this formula. it stopped overheating with 0 explanation with 0 extra parts. I litterally went like an idiot "I wonder if it maybe it only overheats at speed and low rpm" and stuck my foot to the floor for a 45 minute drive and it didn't overheat once. did a massive 5 foot flame out the pipes so that's...concerning.. but drove it to work again since I had a slow day ahead and it was fine. I did do the "proper bleed procedure" of opening the Heater and letting it circulate through the system before popping the thermostat and cap out to see how much the pump was pushing at 1100 rpm idle which wasn't alot? like barely an inch above the housing so maybe my autozone water pump just completely sucks and is spinning on its press fit shaft when there's a temp differential which is generally when it overheats. like only 60°f will cause this behavior but 90 won't anymore. I mean my s10 did a similar thing so it's entirely possible
