Question for anyone who does alignments for a living or generally has access to a machine.
I align my car to have 1/16 front tow in, I go autocross it, I leave autocross with 3/32 tow out on both front tires. How does that work? I have poly bushings, new ball joints, and the outer tie rods look fine. No play anywhere. Is that an inner tie rod problem? Steering rack? The fiero just wants to have tow out for maximum race car-age?
Simple, autocross & some other racing "beats the hell" out of suspension & why racing & other driving Voids most Warranties. Racing, ride share, etc Can be problems w/ Car Insurance too.
You have Polly in control arms etc that have problems no to super few vendors will admit. Like Center core can "chew" thru the polly for little or no lube &/or high load. Polly can deform under high load &/or higher Heat add to core "eating."
May have Rod ends & other problems for steering even ignore that.
May also have wheel bearing problems too. They hate preload when installed wrong but Autox etc puts huge load often does same thing & bearing often Fail. Sealed Hubs like Fiero rear axles have will have same problem.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Personally, I don't see poly bushings as a serious up grade for competition style driving. I think they gained such popularity because they are so easy to "market". They look cool and the work required to install them makes one assume that there is an improvement. In competition, you should consider rod ends or some other form of solid bearing. Yellow uses UHMW polyethylene on bronze oilite for inboard control points. So far, no measurable toe change for 70,000 miles. Note, that with solid control points you need to run zero toe.
Personally, I don't see poly bushings as a serious up grade for competition style driving. I think they gained such popularity because they are so easy to "market". They look cool and the work required to install them makes one assume that there is an improvement. In competition, you should consider rod ends or some other form of solid bearing. Yellow uses UHMW polyethylene on bronze oilite for inboard control points. So far, no measurable toe change for 70,000 miles. Note, that with solid control points you need to run zero toe.
Solid control points require at least some machining and fabrication. It also completely voids any warrantees and leaves you legally naked if anything "happens". Competition prepped cars must accept that. Also be aware that solid control points transmit a lot of road noise, not at all pleasant for normal driving. That's why Yellow has both cradles isolation mounted. McMaster Carr is where I get most of my materials.
Solid control points require at least some machining and fabrication. It also completely voids any warrantees and leaves you legally naked if anything "happens". Competition prepped cars must accept that. Also be aware that solid control points transmit a lot of road noise, not at all pleasant for normal driving. That's why Yellow has both cradles isolation mounted. McMaster Carr is where I get most of my materials.
This car hasn't had a warranty since 1989 LOL. My car is on it's way to being trailered to the track anyway since I'm starting to do stuff to get it prepped for road courses. I figure what you had were off the shelf parts since you were saying it's that much better than poly. I don't really have the facilities to be making custom control arm mounts or whatever is involved with it.
If you ask (along with other folks), he may consider doing another batch. Custom machining not needed (well, he takes care of it)!
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Originally posted by Yellow-88: Also be aware that solid control points transmit a lot of road noise, not at all pleasant for normal driving.
I have Will's spherical bearings, and I find that the ride of my Fiero is quite smooth and comfortable When I haven't broken something on it, my Fiero is an everyday-use car...
I have Will's spherical bearings, and I find that the ride of my Fiero is quite smooth and comfortable When I haven't broken something on it, my Fiero is an everyday-use car...
That looks pretty hardcore as far as the install goes, but also like the perfect solution.... I'll shoot him a pm and see what happens.
This car hasn't had a warranty since 1989 LOL. My car is on it's way to being trailered to the track anyway since I'm starting to do stuff to get it prepped for road courses. I figure what you had were off the shelf parts since you were saying it's that much better than poly. I don't really have the facilities to be making custom control arm mounts or whatever is involved with it.
Yeah ... LOL. What was I thinking. You're off the hook.
Pretty much any bearing is available from several venders. I did consider buying some but they still require some work to make them fit. I ran into, close but not quite, so I made them. If someone has done the work and there still available, by all means buy them.
The pre 88 cars have some seriously compromised suspensions that require a lot more than just better control points for the track. Tell me more about you car.
The pre 88 cars have some seriously compromised suspensions that require a lot more than just better control points for the track. Tell me more about you car.
It's an 86 SE, poly bushings and Hiro Performance coilovers on front and rear. Soon to have a rear sway bar once those get back in stock at the Fierostore. At some point I plan on getting adjustable upper arms in an attempt to get more camber out of it for cornering. 3800sc swapped. fairly standard deal except for the coilovers.
It's an 86 SE, poly bushings and Hiro Performance coil overs on front and rear. Soon to have a rear sway bar once those get back in stock at the Fierostore. At some point I plan on getting adjustable upper arms in an attempt to get more camber out of it for cornering. 3800sc swapped. fairly standard deal except for the coilovers.
Camber is based on roll angle. Ideally the tires are ALWAYS perpendicular to the road. High aspect ratio tires will tend to squash sideways and counteract extra camber, that maybe why people do it. With really stiff, low aspect tires, extra camber may actually hurt your cornering.
It's always best to limit roll angle. Absolutely you need a rear sway bar but it needs to be sized correctly or at least be adjustable. Too stiff will lift the rear inboard tire, thus loosing traction. Front and rear bars must work together. In a nutshell, it's all about keeping as much rubber in contact with the road as is physically possible .... always. A skid pad is essential for tuning sway bars. I can't comment on the Fiero Store bar. Anybody want to jump in?
The early cars have some issues with "bump steer". Try to keep roll angle low so as not to use too much suspension travel. The most successful race cars are easy to drive. The driver should not have to compensate for changing suspension geometry. Most likely, you and many others, are doing that without knowing it.
Camber is based on roll angle. Ideally the tires are ALWAYS perpendicular to the road. High aspect ratio tires will tend to squash sideways and counteract extra camber, that maybe why people do it. With really stiff, low aspect tires, extra camber may actually hurt your cornering.
It's always best to limit roll angle. Absolutely you need a rear sway bar but it needs to be sized correctly or at least be adjustable. Too stiff will lift the rear inboard tire, thus loosing traction. Front and rear bars must work together. In a nutshell, it's all about keeping as much rubber in contact with the road as is physically possible .... always. A skid pad is essential for tuning sway bars. I can't comment on the Fiero Store bar. Anybody want to jump in?
The early cars have some issues with "bump steer". Try to keep roll angle low so as not to use too much suspension travel. The most successful race cars are easy to drive. The driver should not have to compensate for changing suspension geometry. Most likely, you and many others, are doing that without knowing it.
What class will you be running in?
I had the Fiero Store front and rear anti-roll bars on my 86SE ( as well as Eibach springs and full poly.)
The bars are a set, and balanced for the 84-87 Fiero.
With street tires on 15" lace wheels (215/60/15 - 225/60/15), the car ran autocross times mid pack with race-prepped Corvettes.
They are the best suspension upgrades one can make on a pre-88 Fiero.
Edit to add....
I see Fieros at shows the have way too much rubber on the road, and the front/rear width stagger is all wrong; too much rubber on one end or the other. More rubber on a Fiero does not necessarily equate to better handling or faster lap times.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 06-24-2024).]
Camber is based on roll angle. Ideally the tires are ALWAYS perpendicular to the road. High aspect ratio tires will tend to squash sideways and counteract extra camber, that maybe why people do it. With really stiff, low aspect tires, extra camber may actually hurt your cornering.
What class will you be running in?
As someone who works in a shop that specializes in race tires and alignments, I have to disagree. The way our cars are set up, in a turn we gain a ton of positive camber. You have to put in -1 or -2 degrees of camber so that your tire is truely perpendicular to the track mid corner. You wouldn't really be racing on a tire with a 55 sidewall anyway as it would have way way too much flex so those people are simply doing it for show and are just destroying their tires.
As olejoedad said, more rubber doesn't inherently mean more gooder as far as cornering performance goes. I got the same times with 205 front tires that I do with my current 235 because I spend the entire race fighting the car on my tow out changing and understeer from lack of swaybar. Adding a sway bar and camber alone should help a TON as this chassis really enjoys understeering for reasons that I'm still not really 100% on. Lack of weight up front? Shitty suspension design? Both?
I'm running SSM in SCCA classes, so I'm in a pretty loose on the rules class. I'm running with a guy in an LS swapped miata with 315 hoosiers.
As someone who works in a shop that specializes in race tires and alignments, I have to disagree. The way our cars are set up, in a turn we gain a ton of positive camber. You have to put in -1 or -2 degrees of camber so that your tire is truely perpendicular to the track mid corner. You wouldn't really be racing on a tire with a 55 sidewall anyway as it would have way way too much flex so those people are simply doing it for show and are just destroying their tires.
As olejoedad said, more rubber doesn't inherently mean more gooder as far as cornering performance goes. I got the same times with 205 front tires that I do with my current 235 because I spend the entire race fighting the car on my tow out changing and understeer from lack of swaybar. Adding a sway bar and camber alone should help a TON as this chassis really enjoys understeering for reasons that I'm still not really 100% on. Lack of weight up front? Shitty suspension design? Both?
I'm running SSM in SCCA classes, so I'm in a pretty loose on the rules class. I'm running with a guy in an LS swapped miata with 315 hoosiers.
Back when 70 series was wicked wide you could almost squash the tires off the 5 1/2" rims. On a hard corner you were running on the outside edge of the tire. It didn't really matter how much camber you started with. Am I dating my self?
Yes, you need to keep maximum rubber on the road but, if some of it is fighting you, because your steering more than you have to, extra rubber costs power and eats up your lap time. 235's with "dynamic" geometry is exactly that. What you gain in rubber you loose in friction. I think perfectly controlled bike tires, could run equally with fat, poorly controlled ones. (Not really but an Interesting test.)
What you're seeing is the compromised geometry of the pre 88 Fiero. As long as you don't move the control arms up or down, it's fine. That's why I say to limit the roll angle as much as possible. Make it into a giant go kart.
Weight distribution is actually pretty good. It's good to know that there's a bolt-on roll bar that is correct for the pre-88 cars.
Detroit must build cars for normal folk, so understeer is the choice. Even the 88 naturally understeers. The 88 does that with unequal length lateral links in the rear. I modified Yellow with equal length links so it's now dead neutral. And .... all 4 tires point where there supposed to.
You have your hands full with your choice, but that just adds to the challenge. Surprise everybody.
I've been away from the sports car racing scene for a long time. SSM looks like a lot of fun.
I must correct my statement to be; Camber setting is based on roll angle accepted. Roll will cause the inboard control arms to drop and the out board ones to rise. If the Fiero geometry show's positive camber as the arms move just a little toward full bump .... that's really bad geometry for serious driving. I've never measured pre-88 in detail. Is it common to see that in other suspension's? I always thought that unequal length control arms cause negative camber on bump or they should. Of course the 88 does ... I know ..... but that is a really nice front end.
You could do a full analysis of a pre-88 chassis by putting it on the rack with no springs and 4 jacks. That way you could run it through a simulation of every thing it can do. Simulating maximum roll before it gently unweights it's inside tires would need data from the skid pad. What are the toes and cambers in that condition? What happens when you turn in from zero roll? And of course, what's the rear end doing? Now that would be interesting data to see.
Another thing to watch out for is scrub radius. The idea is to pivot around the center of the tire's contact patch. That's based on tire diameter and wheel offset. Big scrub radius costs wasted rubber.
My 86 SE with the complete Fiero Store Handling Package (2" Eibach 400# lowering springs, full poly, front and rear anti- bars, KYB shocks and struts) exhibited very little roll and no bump steer.
The secret to controlling bump steer on the pre-88' is simply to control suspension travel.
The early Fieros can be made to handle well with proper selection of off the shelf parts, and the Fiero Store Handling Package is one of the options.
With all that said, my 4.9 Cadillac powered 88 Formula, with stock suspension, handles as well or better than the 86 did, has better ride and turn-in, and feels much better on uneven and rough surfaces.
The addition of FieroGuru's 13" brake package to the car has solved the one issue the car had.
I will say, for all the shortcomings of the Hiro Coilovers, they really did change the entire car. On the street, it corners dead flat. It's pretty impressive. Just not great for tracks with tighter turns like my local one. I'm excited for the fierostore to get more rear sways in stock.
no and nope. I'm waiting for the rear bar to be back in stock and I'll upgrade both ends at the same time. I don't know if attempting to source a GT rack and installing it would be entirely worth the effort
no and nope. I'm waiting for the rear bar to be back in stock and I'll upgrade both ends at the same time. I don't know if attempting to source a GT rack and installing it would be entirely worth the effort
At some point probably, but I don't really know how helpful those will be for me. The suspension on this is never going to be so fine tuned that it needs sway bar adjustments.
At some point probably, but I don't really know how helpful those will be for me. The suspension on this is never going to be so fine tuned that it needs sway bar adjustments.
Rodney's aren't adjustable, at least not for my 86 so he says..
Think we'll see the sway bars in July?
[This message has been edited by hunter29 (edited 06-25-2024).]
Everything said here points to the same thing. Pre 88 Fieros's can be track cars if the suspension travel is dramatically limited. That's because they don't have ("good") suspension geometry. It wasn't intended to be competitive with the "sports car market". As I said earlier, built it like a giant go kart for autocross. But on a road course where suspension travel is important, one needs to start with an 88 chassis, if one wants to be seriously competitive. The 86 can be a starting point but requires a lot of mods and will still be compromised. Bolt on's can only go so far.
I still say, go for it. Really understand what's happening and modify what's not correct for your purpose. It's basic geometry, not rocket science. Surprise everybody.
The engineer / scientist in me automatically looks for data before making any decisions. Yellow is an 88 for that reason.
For what its worth, after waiting for a couple of months for them to be shown "in stock", I just decided to put myself on the waiting list and ordered a front swaybar from The Fiero Store. To my surprise, it was shipped and delivered a few days later.
Also FWIW, I calculate The Fiero Store front swaybar (1" dia) to be about a 400 lb/in. I calculate a rear bar (7/8") to be about 200 lb/in.
With Suspension Technologies lowering springs (of unknown stiffness) that came with the car, I cannot discern bumpsteer. The car stays relatively flat in corners, but I have not yet taken it to the track; only autocross.
[This message has been edited by Brian A (edited 06-26-2024).]
reviving this for a second, but after my last event... the alignment didn't change. So. I don't understand. This car just makes up rules or something, I'm just along for the ride
reviving this for a second, but after my last event... the alignment didn't change. So. I don't understand. This car just makes up rules or something, I'm just along for the ride
Hi
Maybe the poly bushings just distorted to their limit and might stay that way for a while. I don't know, never tried them.
When I haven't broken something on it, my Fiero is an everyday-use car...
