Ryan, I haven't looked at this thread in over 10 months. WOW, I'm always impressed with the amount and quality of the work you've done (and continue to do) on this beast.
My God, I love sound from the dyno video.
The Wife and I are going to be down in Niagara on Sept 3 and 4. I'd love to see this thing in person if you're around...
Justin
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero SE 3.4L | The Fiero Blog (Since April 2000) ----------------------------------------------------------- My Portfolio site | JustinChristie.ca
I think the numbers are low... but I wasn't going to bring it up
My '95 L37 with 90K put 255 HP and 268 TQ to the ground with a crappy tune, through a 282.
Hi Will,
I'll admit they were lower than I had guessed, but then again tripling the horsepower of the stock engine that came with my indy isn't a bad start in my opinion The stock Northstar power was impressive 10-15 years ago, but with LS3's making 430HP stock these days there are easier ways to go faster. That said, we llike being different and the interested crowds around the engine bay at each cruise are satisfaction that the Northstar is still a cool engine choice.
Ryan, I haven't looked at this thread in over 10 months. WOW, I'm always impressed with the amount and quality of the work you've done (and continue to do) on this beast.
My God, I love sound from the dyno video.
The Wife and I are going to be down in Niagara on Sept 3 and 4. I'd love to see this thing in person if you're around...
Justin
Thanks Justin, I should be around if you'll like to go for a ride. Just text me in advance 416-524-7684, and we can meet up somewhere. I'm working the 4th so if it's that day it would need to be in the evening.
Originally posted by Fiero42: Nice clean headlight install. My ballasts aren't secured to anything yet, I think I'll steal your idea! How did you screw in the shrouds? I think there is like one possible hole for them, but that install wasn't clear at all. I have them taped right now.
There are four holes in the shroud in the shape of a rectangle. Rotate it until the top two holes line up then replace the projector screws with slightly longer ones. You can do this with the buckets and brackets already in the car, just remove the aiming nuts on one projector at a time.
I made some more adjustments to match the Fiero projector light beam to our other car with factory HID's.
Here's a video to show you how they look from the driver's seat:
I had a belt squeak issue at cold startup, and upon inspection noticed that the alignment was off on the A/C compressor:
In order to get the alignment I needed, I had to go with a belt 1/2" longer (69.5"):
Once the compressor was shimmed I tensioned the new belt using the tension jam nuts - very simple design that works well:
Here is the belt for my future reference - I enjoyed watching the parts source employee try to measure the outside of the belt until I showed him how to read the part number
There are four holes in the shroud in the shape of a rectangle. Rotate it until the top two holes line up then replace the projector screws with slightly longer ones. You can do this with the buckets and brackets already in the car, just remove the aiming nuts on one projector at a time.
I made some more adjustments to match the Fiero projector light beam to our other car with factory HID's.
Here's a video to show you how they look from the driver's seat:
Wow long thread, facinating evolution of this Fiero. I'm particularly interested in the Northstar, do Delortos use the same bottom flange as Webers? In the end was the mid length runner what worked best or what fit best? Was the loppyness of the first version because of bad sealing, impropper timing, something else wrong that maybe the rebuild fixed or was it the short runners? The engine is now carburated, but still uses the crank trigger, so did I miss how that works? Is there still some aspect of the Caddy computor at work here?
[This message has been edited by skorpioskorpio (edited 10-23-2012).]
I understand there is no distributor in a Northstar, a hall effect crank trigger requires some level of micro controller logic to fire the cylinders every other rotation and provide advance function, so I assume some aspect of the original Caddy ECU is still used here or replaced by something else to provide this function.
I understand there is no distributor in a Northstar, a hall effect crank trigger requires some level of micro controller logic to fire the cylinders every other rotation and provide advance function, so I assume some aspect of the original Caddy ECU is still used here or replaced by something else to provide this function.
Waste spark doesn't need to know which half of the cycle the engine's in. It's an Electromotive HPV-1
Interesting, so it fires TDC regardless of cycle? I didn't realise that that multi coil system was not part of the original Northstar ignition. Clears up a lot, thanks.
...still wondering about Delorto vs Weber though. I like the whole Northstar unplugged concept.
Interesting, so it fires TDC regardless of cycle? I didn't realise that that multi coil system was not part of the original Northstar ignition. Clears up a lot, thanks.
...still wondering about Delorto vs Weber though. I like the whole Northstar unplugged concept.
Yes very similar to the Webber design - lots of dellorto info online. Below is link to manual we used as reference material.
Great info, basically the same thing as an IDF Weber, looks like they're essentially interchangable. I think you might have cinched my engine decision. Hmm, I wonder how much a flat crank and cams would run me?
Interesting, so it fires TDC regardless of cycle? I didn't realise that that multi coil system was not part of the original Northstar ignition. Clears up a lot, thanks.
...still wondering about Delorto vs Weber though. I like the whole Northstar unplugged concept.
'93-'99 Northstars used a 4 coil waste spark system that was visually similar.
quote
Originally posted by skorpioskorpio:
Great info, basically the same thing as an IDF Weber, looks like they're essentially interchangable. I think you might have cinched my engine decision. Hmm, I wonder how much a flat crank and cams would run me?
4340 billet crank would probably be $3K-$4K. Possibly up to $500 each for 8620 billet cam cores, plus grinding at up to $50/lobe, depending on how closely the billet cores match the finished profile.
Call (don't bother with email) www.CHRFab.com about these items (no affiliation)
Sorry yes I'm in Canada where the metric system is prevalent. Multiply by 2.2 for pounds and then subtract the 50 lbs of stuff in the trunk Btw I had a full tank of gas too.
4340 billet crank would probably be $3K-$4K. Possibly up to $500 each for 8620 billet cam cores, plus grinding at up to $50/lobe, depending on how closely the billet cores match the finished profile.
Call (don't bother with email) www.CHRFab.com about these items (no affiliation)
Yea, I've already had that conversation with Alan at CHRFab, although he's done cranks but more in the $6-7000 range (which seems really really high to me) but he's never done a flat crank. There has been some discussions about doing flat crank SBCs and has even been some done, but if you look into it all the really successful flat crank V8s are less than 5 liters, oversquare and DOHC just like the Northstar. I think you really need the cam mass of double overhead cams to smooth out the harmonics issues. The split block mains seems perfect too, although $10K is a bit steep for an experiment, maybe 180 degree headers or an 8 into 1 collector.
I know this thread is focused on the car, it's a facinating build, and I don't want to hijack it. I am starting to plan out a '69-72 Blazer/Northstar build and find the work done here really really interesting. I'm in SoCal, and if you want to play around with what you can do with modern engines in kind of an old school way you better be dropping it into a pre 1975 body if want any hope of getting CA plates on it.
I think you really need the cam mass of double overhead cams to smooth out the harmonics issues.
Does not compute.
Even in the billet crank world, I guess the "lower volume" products cost more.
Because only one cam is required, and because of the cheaper billet cranks, putting together a flat crank Chevy is going to be significantly less expensive than a flat crank Northstar.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-31-2012).]
Even in the billet crank world, I guess the "lower volume" products cost more.
Because only one cam is required, and because of the cheaper billet cranks, putting together a flat crank Chevy is going to be significantly less expensive than a flat crank Northstar.
Not sure I understand what doesn't compute. Why you would do a flat crank Northstar over a SBC? Northstar is practically Cosworth like in it's design, except for the cross crank, the SBC was a simple relatively unsophisticated design when it came out 60 years ago, remember this was an engine designed to be put in a mark that was famously frugal at that time. Don't get me wrong what can and has been done with a small block is impressive, but it's not a split block standing bore 32 valve double overhead cam engine. And frankly it'll cost you more to do a flat plane SBC that'll spin up on the 9000 rpm range than it would cost you to get the same out of a flat crank Northstar. On a small block you'd have to tweek just about every aspect of the design to achive that and it would be pushing the limits of what a push rod design is capable of, on a Northstar it basically takes a crank and cams.
What I meant was that the moment of inertia of the cams is not relevant to the engine's NVH characteristics.
I don't think you've looked thoroughly at how expensive the custom cams would be. Remember that there are *NO* blanks for the Northstar cams. Everything has to be custom.
Don't underestimate how expensive and time consuming development is. All the parts to build a 9K RPM Chevy are on the shelf and available from places like Summit, Jegs, etc. The only difference would be that the billet crank and custom cam would have a different firing order. The valvetrain to turn that RPM is built from shelf parts. The heads that flow enough air to make power at that RPM are shelf parts. CNC porting is available as a standard service. The throttle per cylinder intake manifolds that would both support the airflow requirements of the engine and civilize an engine radical enough to make power at 9000 RPM are shelf items. Expensive, but shelf items. The aftermarket *BLOCK* strong enough for 4 digit power is a shelf item.
You will have to make EVERYTHING for the Northstar. Stock pistons and rods won't make 9000 RPM... not for more than a couple of dyno pulls, anyway. Besides, the stock compression ratio and ring pack aren't appropriate for such a build anyway...
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-06-2012).]
Custom cams for changed firing order are about $500 a shaft, it's the least of the problems, the crank itself is more than double that. When I talked to Alan over at CHRFab, he suggested that near 9000rpm on a stock Northstar rotating assembly was pretty typical. Getting into the 9000rpm mark on a SBC reliably is not so easy. There is probably 4 times the weight in valvetrain mass in a pushrod engine, and being a 2 valve per cylinder engine to get the flow you have to do it with lift and not area not the path you want to take for high rpm.
Anyway, be that as it may, this is a thread about a successful and interesting swap of a American 32 valve DOHC V8 into an American mid engined car running a fairly exotic induction system and not just a Holley 4 barrel and I'm not sure how small block flag waving belongs in this thread. I know what a SBC can do, and what it costs, and frankly I find it uninteresting, you maybe able to push this old 1950s design to impressive heights and yes this engine has even run along side Cosworths at Indy not that long ago, but in the end it's still a pushrod small block. If I was prone to go the push rod Chevy route I'd probably be looking at a 8+ liter World Castings aluminum big block with Arao heads which makes the flat crank Northstar seem cheap in comparison.... because it's interesting.
Custom cams for changed firing order are about $500 a shaft, it's the least of the problems,
I think that finished cams are going to be a good bit more than that...
If you do it because it's interesting, go for it. That's why I'm building my car the way I am and the way I'm planning. Just know what you're getting into before you get started.
Hey bubbajoe can you tell me the timken part number for the bearings you used on the inside of the hub. I have searched this site for days and I can't find the number I see you used a ford seal but the pictures of the bearings I can not read. I just don't want to make ten trips to the store trying to get them right when I know you did. Your work is outstanding.
Hey bubbajoe can you tell me the timken part number for the bearings you used on the inside of the hub. I have searched this site for days and I can't find the number I see you used a ford seal but the pictures of the bearings I can not read. I just don't want to make ten trips to the store trying to get them right when I know you did. Your work is outstanding.
Information was on page 60 (page 1 is a table of contents for every page).
quote
Originally posted by Fiero2m8: After some more R&D we are going to mod Bearing #513009 instead due to its smaller size 2.79" vs. 88 spindle of 2.74"
Thanks for the reply but I think he used a different set of bearings than what came in the hub. If you look at the picture you will see a bunch of timken bearing and seal boxes. The hub part comes with the races machined into the carrier so even if he used the bearings that came with the hub he still would have to purchase the races to mate to the bearings right? also the one picture shows a bearing and race on it but I cannot read the part number. I do not think this was original to 513009 hub.
no more plastic caged ball bearings full tapered roller bearings and races when i disassembled the stock fiero units they came with plastic cage ball bearings and the cages showed signs of melting from lack of grease this new setup eliminates the plastic parts and give true roller bearings and a 1 1/8 stub shaft and 5X4 3/4 bolt circle
a couple of pics showing the shaft size change and new bearing
as seen in the pics the bearing is now a presision roller bearing insted of a cheep plastic low quality ball bearing
Does anyone know the part number on them bearng he has on the hub . I CANNOT GET ANYONE TO TELL ME ? Is it a BIG secret or am I suposed to know already. Did I miss somthing in some other thread ? Help Im confused.
