quote Originally posted by The MaD cOw: Jeez... I hadn't checked this thread in a few days.... you're movin right along! Good to see. Dam, I need a garage So, did I read that right... you're planning on saving the formula further down the road too? One would almost want to call you Dr. Frankenstein eh

Yes, when I get motivated, I work quickly...
And yes, I'm going to resurrect the the Formula, for three reasons:
1 - I have such a passion for the cars that it's scary, and it crushes me to see any of them go to waste... You can't imagine how I felt at the Fiero Factory seeing all those Fieros rotting away. I kinda expressed it a little in my "The Survivor" build thread, but words can't effectively describe it.
2 - I have never owned an '88 before, so this will be a great chance for me to get educated in the upgrades
3 - This chassis is absolutely cherry... There's barely even any surface rust on it anywhere. There's one tiny little speck of surface rust in one corner of the trunk, so I see no reason to trash it. It would be much more sensible to resurrect it and make something I can enjoy.

Now, on to tonight's progress... First person to find the difference gets a bonus point!!





So apparently, the guy didn't think I was serious the first time I met with him about the Formula, and that afternoon, he took off the valve covers, upper & lower intake plenums, and removed the distributor... That in itself isn't so much of an issue as is the debris that I see. I'm fairly sure I can use my shop vac and get whatever small debris there is out, but I'm a little concerned... Do you guys think it's necessary to remove the head and give it a cleaning just to be sure? Of course it would be so much easier to just vacuum it out, but I'd probably always have that question mark in the back of my mind...
I guess my question is, have any of you ever seen anything similar, and would you hands-down insist I remove the head and verify it's clean?











Please give me your suggestions.
Thanks!

Edit to perform teh pwn teh page dance...

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 02-18-2009).]

You already have the engine down that far, it would'nt take much longer to pull the heads. One of the last Fieros I bought had suffered catastrophic damage (slung a main cap through the side of the block) because of the "work" or lack there of the people did on it before me. (crap in the engine plus a couple of untightened bolts). Well at least I got the car dirt cheap, but the damage could have been prevented and there would be one more good 2.8 out there. I'm always concerned with what the previous owner may have or may not have done.

When your in that deep, whats another hour and a gasket kit?

quote Originally posted by Fieronum6: When your in that deep, whats another hour and a gasket kit?

x2

That looks pretty dirty. Pull it.

Yep. I had just about made up my mind lastnight as I was drifting off to sleep, but I'm glad to find that everyone agrees with my decision. Even though this is a quick build to get it on the road, I don't think I'd be able to stand having that little fear in the back of my brain that an acorn might be stuck in the intake valve of one of the cylinders...
I should be able to pull the head tonight and clean it. I'll be taking the intake, dist, and other missing pieces from the other V6 I pulled out of "The Survivor" to make this engine complete. The good news is, when "The Survivor" was sitting at my parent's house about 3 years ago, I had decided to work on it, so ALL of the ignition components are new: pickup coil, ign coil, ign module, etc, etc. And since it sat (I never got it started - fuel pump) with the decklid AND a car cover on it, they still look great, so I shouldn't have any trouble at all making the engine complete and firing it right up!

Hopefully I'll get a chance to lay out the harness, ECM, etc, hook it all up, and fire the engine before I put it up in the coupe-ula.
Thanks for the input!

Looking great. I like the fact that your cherry picker is strong enough to hoist the car. Many people have to build a gantry to hold the vehicle but your lift works great. It will be nice to see this running and on the road and great if you can make Daytona. Keep up the good work and also definately check the heads. It is so much easier then starting it up, driving 2 blocks, and spinning a bearing.

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: Looking great. I like the fact that your cherry picker is strong enough to hoist the car. Many people have to build a gantry to hold the vehicle but your lift works great. It will be nice to see this running and on the road and great if you can make Daytona. Keep up the good work and also definately check the heads. It is so much easier then starting it up, driving 2 blocks, and spinning a bearing.

Hey thanks for input IMSA! Oh, and by the way, I just found a pair of coilover springs on eBay for $35 shipped... Can't wait to get those in and drop it!
-Paul

The deeper I get into this, the less I feel it's going to be ready for D9...
I'm really glad I pulled the heads:







This stuff on my finger is Permatex... That I pulled out of the oil pickup... It's good to make sure everything is sealed, but this much is just.... wow.





Here you can see the specks of red still in the pickup:



Now, sometimes it may appear that I know what I'm doing, but this is my first time semi-completely disassembling an engine with the intent of putting it back together... It really needs a good cleaning, but I'm not sure what would be 'safe' do to at this point. Personally, it looks like I could coat it down with degreaser inside & out, scrub it down where I can, then rinse it thoroughly and let it dry, but I want to be sure I don't jeopardize any components. I don't really want to further disassemble the block, so can you official gear heads please give me some advice on the most effective way to clean it?
Thanks!

I'll tell you what one of the most important parts are to clean and that is the oil return passages. They get caked up over the years and restrict oil flow. My biggest fear of cleaning the internals without a complete disassembly is that if you loosen the debris, it could find its way into the crank journals and block the bearing oil ports which means a spun bearing. This one is a toss up due to safety. You could get away with it but it is risky. The worst part is that the debris may not immediately block a port, it may do damage 6 months from now.

I wouldn't use degreaser on anything still attached to the block. I would just scrape what I can.....

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: I'll tell you what one of the most important parts are to clean and that is the oil return passages. They get caked up over the years and restrict oil flow. My biggest fear of cleaning the internals without a complete disassembly is that if you loosen the debris, it could find its way into the crank journals and block the bearing oil ports which means a spun bearing. This one is a toss up due to safety. You could get away with it but it is risky. The worst part is that the debris may not immediately block a port, it may do damage 6 months from now.

Well, it's almost completely disassembled, so I can get at the bottom and the top, and the kind of cleaning it really needs is a flush... so what's the best thing to do? I'm taking the oil pickup off, and I'll flush it out & weld the tube, but what of the rest of the block? Does anyone have experience with an engine teardown & clean similar to this?

Its not boring, its the opposite, in fact. its just that the deepest i got with my engine is the upper plenium. So i have no clue.

You know that you are not boring. I just think that no advice is the strongest advice that we could give. If you are going that far, why not miss Daytona, and build her up right? I know, money and such, but if you do it yourself...I just think that no one here has just washed down a partialy torn down engine. Usually we just explode them, then start over. I for one feel that you deserve good things to happen. I would hate to see that engine blow apart after you have gotten this far on the teardown.

Any one have any good advice for Fieroboom? I know that this guy and his wife would help anyone. So let us help them.

At the very least I have always taken a peek inside the bearing caps, when I had an engine that far down - unless I knew the history of the motor and had no concerns. I had two Goodwrench Chevy motors (1-350 & 1-427) that still had hone marks in the cylinders and were very clean inside. One guy, who has a lot of mechanical experience, was watching and was begging me to just throw some new gaskets on the 350 and get it back in the car. He insisted that if the motor was that clean it had to be okay. I pulled two bearing caps - everything still looked great. He was almost screaming at me to just button it back up, but I kept going. When the third cap came off he shut up - spun bearing.

The problem is you just never know for sure on a motor you don't know, until you see. I've been watching daily and trying to think what to say. When you said you want to wash the assembled short block down I cringed. I'm good with a set of tools and have even rebuilt engines, but since mechanical work is not my specialty, I have been waiting to see what people with more experience would say.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 02-23-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: If you are going that far, why not miss Daytona, and build her up right?

HA! Missing Daytona is NOT an option... The rooms are already reserved. The only question is, go in this, or go in the Jeep.
And from the looks of it, I'll be going in the Jeep. Looks like it's time to do a complete teardown, and a mild rebuild.... Might as well go ahead and get some headers, because these are cracked, do the DIY port & polish, grab some rings, get her honed, etc etc.
Thanks for the input guys, I was hoping to get away with some cleaning, but alas, life isn't easy, huh?

EDIT:
Guess it's time to whip up that engine stand I've been wanting to build...

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 02-23-2009).]

It's a shame that you aren't closer because I need to get rid of an engine stand and a 2.8 engine block

Let me know if you want dimensions on the stand.

Did you PM Clifff about changing the name of this thread for you? I did it before. The 27 thread was originally something like "32 Fiero Land Speed Racer". I just posted in the thread that I was going to rename it before I asked Cliff to change the title, to let the viewers and posters get used to the new name.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Did you PM Clifff about changing the name of this thread for you? I did it before. The 27 thread was originally something like "32 Fiero Land Speed Racer". I just posted in the thread that I was going to rename it before I asked Cliff to change the title, to let the viewers and posters get used to the new name.

No, I haven't yet, but that's a good idea; thanks.

New thread title (if he agrees) will be "The Coupe-ula build thread"

-Paul

In the thread,I like the new "Construction Zone", you said:

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: I was just contemplating if I should ask Cliff to change my thread name, or allow us to change them ourselves... Mine is labeled "w00t!!! Say hello to #12! )" because that was a thread I started when I got the car, and later I didn't want to start yet another thread to document stuff on it. I wish I could change it now to something more like "The Coupe-ula Build" or something indicating it's a build thread... -Paul

then Cliff said:

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: If you want your thread's title changed in TCZ, just shoot me a PM. Be aware though that some people may no longer be able to find it (although that seems unlikely).

I started to tell you Cliff probably would, because he did it for me, but I didn't want to put words in his mouth - then he showed up and said it himself

Yep, PMed him. Hopefully he'll have a chance to do it soon.
-Paul

I found it!

Good luck on your build, you have my car's twin:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/074687.html
Red 85 Coupe on Grey GT wheels titled in Michigan, brought home non-running on a trailer.

Is your flamed coupe already a 5 speed car?

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Good luck on your build, you have my car's twin: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/074687.html Red 85 Coupe on Grey GT wheels titled in Michigan, brought home non-running on a trailer. Is your flamed coupe already a 5 speed car?

Yeah, it is. Since I've pretty much accepted the fact that it won't be ready for D9, I've kinda slowed down a bit. I'm trying to do some research on mild upgrades to the V6, since it's already apart now. I don't want to do a major swap on this one, but could some of you list some 'freshen-up' mods I can/should do since I'm going to be taking it all the way down? I really like what Fieromaniac is doing in his Mild Performance, Maniac Way thread, but I'm not even wanting that much of a build up with new pistons and such. I know I'd like to have a go at porting the heads, and I'm gonna have to make/buy some headers, since these are cracked, and look pretty restrictive anyway.
Any constructive pointers you guys have on what I should put into it upon reassembly (such as bearings, etc...) is greatly appreciated!

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: I thought the guy I got the '88 from was BS-ing me when he said it had been rebuilt recently, but I quickly discovered that all the coolant hoses were new with the stickers still on them, so having to cut this one killed me, but I just could not get the dam thing off either of the pipes:

quote Originally posted by fieroboom:

How many miles ago was this thing supposedly rebuilt? That has to be the dirtiest "rebuilt engine" I've seen. I think the guy that told you that wasn't being totally honest with you...

Some people think cleaning the outside of the motor, new gaskets, hoses, belts, etc., is a rebuild. It look nice on the outside and probably still runs well enough, so...

I don't know what your budget is Fieroboom but I would put the best into the bottom end. Have all the short block components cleaned, checked, reconditioned, and/or replaced, as necessary. If you can afford it pay to have someone assemble the bottom end for you. Get a good oil pump, and timing chain. If the bottom end is done right you never have to worry about it when on the road, you can go anywhere you want with relative peace of mind, and you don't have to pull the motor again. I'm not saying the top-end is not important - just that it's a little easier to deal with.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 02-25-2009).]

quote Originally posted by litespd: How many miles ago was this thing supposedly rebuilt? That has to be the dirtiest "rebuilt engine" I've seen. I think the guy that told you that wasn't being totally honest with you...

Yeah, I would tend to agree... Aesthetically, it looked recently rebuilt, but inside is a different story...

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Some people think cleaning the outside of the motor, new gaskets, hoses, belts, etc., is a rebuild. It look nice on the outside and probably still runs well enough, so...

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: I don't know what your budget is Fieroboom but I would put the best into the bottom end. Have all the short block components cleaned, checked, reconditioned, and/or replaced, as necessary. If you can afford it pay to have someone assemble the bottom end for you. Get a good oil pump, and timing chain. If the bottom end is done right you never have to worry about it when on the road, you can go anywhere you want with relative peace of mind, and you don't have to pull the motor again. I'm not saying the top-end is not important - just that it's a little easier to deal with.

I'd rather do the assembly myself, mainly because I really don't like other people (especially ones I don't know) working on my car... At most I would have the block cleaned & honed, then I'd take it from there. I've never fully rebuilt an engine, so this is a good time for me to start learning some stuff.
-Paul

you know i like anything made out of cardboard, but you know you'll have to pay me fee since i own the rights to cardboard concocktions.

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Well, I got home, and immediately started... Set the '88 engine & cradle on the dolly, pulled the trailer out, and started pulling the valve rocker & head bolts, when my fiance comes down to the garage and very sweetly tells me she wants to treat us to dinner... at the all-you-can-eat chinese buffet... Yeah. Needless to say, I didn't (and can't) get anything else done tonight, and I'm 100% worthless right now. Anyone like my new cardboard engine I'm working on? It has a super easy-to-replace head... I think it'll handle 10 lbs of boost without any mods too...

Hey, Paul, if you don't make it for D9, will it be ready to lead the St. Patricks Day Parade?

quote Originally posted by fierofool: Hey, Paul, if you don't make it for D9, will it be ready to lead the St. Patricks Day Parade?

Heh, I'm not really sure yet to be honest... I've got so many irons in the fire that I've just about decided to just clean it, put it back together, and take my chances. I have another V6 sitting in the garage that I can build in the meantime. Let me start getting it put back together, and we'll see how far I get.
Plus, the paint isn't nearly as good as it looks in the pictures. It's rattle-can paint, so the top layer is really bad. It'll need a paint job before it goes into any parade.
-Paul

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Heh, I'm not really sure yet to be honest... I've got so many irons in the fire that I've just about decided to just clean it, put it back together, and take my chances. I have another V6 sitting in the garage that I can build in the meantime. Let me start getting it put back together, and we'll see how far I get. Plus, the paint isn't nearly as good as it looks in the pictures. It's rattle-can paint, so the top layer is really bad. It'll need a paint job before it goes into any parade. -Paul

just cut out the floor for the Fred Flintstone mod and paint it Green! everyone would love it! except maybe you after pushing it all the way! LOL!
I thought about the same thing for mine but I still have a motor!

Any updates, Paul?

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Any updates, Paul?

Not yet. We had a cold spell + about 5-6 inches of snow, so I haven't been down there. Plus, I'm still trying to move... Landlord here is attempting to completely screw us over, so we're trying to get out with the quickness... Heh, personal issues suck!

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Not yet. We had a cold spell + about 5-6 inches of snow, so I haven't been down there. Plus, I'm still trying to move... Landlord here is attempting to completely screw us over, so we're trying to get out with the quickness... Heh, personal issues suck!

Actually got snow huh? Now you have a tiny taste of what its like up north.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Actually got snow huh? Now you have a tiny taste of what its like up north.

You can feel free to keep it up there.

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: You can feel free to keep it up there.

No no, I think you would enjoy some more.
I have had enough, trust me. Snow+fiero=not that great.

While we're o/t on snow - I am soooo glad I moved a couple hundred miles south, and don't have to deal with the lake effect snowfalls! I had a 330' drive from the street to my old shop, and dealing with that in the winter was not one of my favorite activities. The guy who bought my old house/shop told me that while he was outside clearing the drive the snow caved the roof of the shop in! He didn't have any heat in it and let all that snow pile up on it - the roof had a low 4/12 pitch. He said his girlfriend grabbed a shovel and immediately started working on the house roof (also 4/12 pitch)! I feel for the guy, but am also glad it's not me going through it. I could never see snow another day in my life and not miss it.

I think it's funny here in Columbus, because they panic when the forecast says two inches. It really tickles me that they think that's a lot of snow