Here's a glimpse of the direction I am going with the project... Much of what you see is just a hodgepodge of mock-up parts to help me decide which ideas have merit. From front to back:
* I changed to a more traditional late twenties/early thirties style grille (albeit heavily modified) to provide opportunity to reinforce the vintage Pontiac heritage. This body is still just a mock-up. When I model the real thing I will incorporate as many 1927 Pontiac styling cues as possible; especially in the grille area. In keeping with the modern-vintage balance, I added a billet-style carbon fiber grille.
* The front suspension shown here is borrowed from another model to help wrap my head around the design choices. The Fiero-spec front suspension should be lower, and less bulky (knuckles), when I get around to modeling it. There will be a large opening on each side to allow the suspension to pass through the body, and the body to be removed without disassembling the chassis.
* The windshield will NOT be split. Wouldn't be too cool from a center-seat driving position Again, this was borrowed from another model, and quickly hacked up, to get an idea what would work there. I do like the carbon fiber frames though.
* Three bucket seats, as promised! I have them in carbon fiber here, but that is not settled. I am experimenting with the idea of carbon fiber, aged aluminum, and body-color paint for the interior with no traditional leather upholstery and carpet. I would have to figure out what goes where though. Too much carbon fiber and the cockpit would be dark and lifeless. I realized this when I started to model carbon fiber side panels and realized that it would just look like a gray blob in the renderings. I had to lighten the front seat just to get it to show up in the front three-quarter view. If I do the carbon fiber seats I am thinking about making perimeter frames with a suspended, stiff, nylon mesh in the seat and back areas. I sat in a $300-400 office chair like this that I absolutely loved.
* I tried the high-mount mufflers a zillion different ways and didn't like it. They wouldn't properly assimilate into the powertrain. They work down low, protruding from under the transaxle! If I can make this work in real life, without raising the CoG too much, I am doing it. The mufflers themselves are basically glorified custom Flowmasters. The plan is to split Suppertrapp cans in half and add about four inches of sheetmetal between the halves, after duplicating the size and position of the original, loud, metallic-sounding, two chamber, Flowmaster 40-series internal baffles. Ideally the end plates would be CNC-cut, and properly aged, aluminum.
* Speaking of my aged-aluminum-parts-from-billet plans, I have to come up with a tool or process to give a sand-cast texture to machined parts; and then the correct aging process, to get the look I am after. I saw a street rod in one of the big magazines that did something similar, but he used textured paint on sanded billet aluminum parts. I want real aluminum.
* The rear suspension is the stock Fiero type lower arms and knuckle with transverse, quarter-elliptic leaf springs to replace the struts. I still have a LOT of design work and modeling to do to make this a reality, but the concept makes the Fiero-derived rear suspension fit the project.
* I haven't settled on an induction setup yet, but it will now be called on to fill the gap on the left side of the powertrain...
* Finally, the wheels are carbon fiber land-speed style discs, with aged aluminum three-bar, knock-off style, centers. Again, just thinking out loud... If I did it they would have to have much more detail. Probably the five-hole/five-bar salt flat style...
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-23-2007).]
Close up of the grille shell - I want the raised center section. I don't have a good pic yet but it seems to taper down to nothing as it moves back across the hood.
Some of the aluminum stuff - one you've seen before, and some new ones...
Pedal assembly. I have five-hole, billet, pedal pads to replace the (painted wooden mock-up) balls, but didn't take any pics of them yet:
Shifter:
Horn button that will cap off a custom billet steering wheel - I can't wait to make this one
Fuel filler trim ring:
Mirrors:
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-22-2007).]
Originally posted by toddshotrods: Close up of the grille shell - I want the raised center section. I don't have a good pic yet but it seems to taper down to nothing as it moves back across the hood.
Wow, you had a lot to say! Great research work, as usual - I'll respond soon...
Until then a couple more details:
I will probably do something similar to this for the dash area, with the Cutlass gauge pod behind it:
Also, the '27 Pontiac bodywork was pretty simple with only one other distinguishing characteristic (other than the grille/hood thing) - the half-round molding type line running front to back. Reminds one of a Fiero body-side molding, eh? Ideally, on this project, it should wrap around the back of the body...
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I know it would probably cost somewhat more, but wouldn't it make sense to go with 88 style rear knuckles? The added benefit to me seams to be worth it.
Also if you want to incorporate the round sloping back end of the older style car's you could always add in some small sloping upper frame rails in the back, and work your suspension off that, but i still think working the leaf spring would be cooler, the rounded look could be accomplished with the upper rails.
Just a though, and I have watched from the beginning and I will hopefully watch until it gets finished, Chris
I love the concept. I would add that the right truck bed, say from a T roadster pickup, would be better aerodynamically then the exposed modern drivertrain. Plus it would give you a place to put the beer cooler.
Originally posted by eph_kay: I know it would probably cost somewhat more, but wouldn't it make sense to go with 88 style rear knuckles? The added benefit to me seams to be worth it...
I'm open to it, but I am clueless about the 88 knuckle. What are the advantages? The one thought I had to replace the Fiero knuckles are W-body (Grand Prix, etc). From what I understand certain years (late nineties???) came with aluminum knuckles and bolt-on hub/bearing carriers that are interchangeable with C4 Vette parts. We went through all that in one of my old threads here looking into building an all-out performance Fiero. The advantages are less unsprung weight and stronger bearings.
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Originally posted by eph_kay: ...I have watched from the beginning and I will hopefully watch until it gets finished, Chris
Things are looking better now that I have narrowed my personal projects down from five to two.
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Originally posted by WhiteDevil88: ...Plus it would give you a place to put the beer cooler.
Lol! I am thinking about a detachable cover for the powertrain for times where aerodynamics are a concern. This depends on how hard I decide to run the car though. It will NOT be a trailer queen and will be used regularly on the street. The question is how much I will want to push it. A lot of that will be determined when I get some seat time in it.
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Looking good!...
Thanks
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Aged aluminum seat accent...
I like that idea, and will be experimenting with it in future models.
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Will it have handles outside or reach in and open? I'm guessing the later. Suicide doors of course...
No handles - no doors. To quote myself from the text in one of my art renderings on my site, "...Mount your rump on the sill, swing 'em up and over, slide down into the... racing seats... and pretend you're really a race car driver..."
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Will the throttle body be a modern single unit or a dual side carb-look with Inglese stacks?...
Undecided and testing different options; especially since I moved the mufflers down.
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Fenders? nah... Tonneau cover covering the back seats?... Mini roll bars behind the back seats?...
Bonnet mounted mirrors...
Definitely nah. Could be an option. Maybe - I have been trying to decide about a roll bar or cage assembly, but need to get the basic vehicle ironed out and see what works with it. That could actually be the deciding factor on how far I go with the performance issue. It will definitely have some caging built into the chassis inside the cockpit; I'm just not sure how far it will extend up and how well it will conform to specific sanctioning rules. There will definitely be "door" bars for side impact protection though.
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Here's another car to check out:...
That's an awesome little car! ------------------ toddshotrods.com - wanna ride? crazy projects, features, articles, art & more
[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-22-2007).]
Not for me. If you look back at the previous renderings you'll notice that even when the gas tank was between the body and engine it was down very low. The reason was safety. As awesome as that looks with the gas tank mounted high on the back of the body tub, I would NEVER ride in traffic in a car like that!!! I have never heard of it happening but if one of those cars was rear-ended and that gas tank is ruptured the driver and passenger are going to burn from the head down
The vehicle that fails to stop in time will ride right over the rear wheels into the gas tank. A likely result would be gas dousing the cockpit with fuel. Just one little spark... With my car they would push the engine right into that tank, with basically the same result. The way I had it before, I was hoping that if the accident was severe enough to rupture the tank the flames would be trapped under the engine and body long enough to escape - closer to how it might play out in a normal car. Now, with the tank completely enclosed between the frame rails, and fully covered by the floor pan, it should be much harder to even rupture it; and allow much more time to escape...
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-23-2007).]
Something similar. I actually have a line of tanks I am working on, and the coolant tank on this vehicle should be the debut of the line. I'd tell you more but I'd have to kill you
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Originally posted by eph_kay: ...Also if you want to incorporate the round sloping back end of the older style car's you could always add in some small sloping upper frame rails in the back, and work your suspension off that, but i still think working the leaf spring would be cooler, the rounded look could be accomplished with the upper rails...
Your suggestion stuck in my head because I love the shape of the deck on 28-32 Fords, and it appears from the photos that Pontiac already had that style in 1927. I also love my exposed powertrain, and your idea gave me an idea of how to have my cake and eat it too.
I decided to try it in bodywork. The deck "rails" would be a part of the body. The rendering just shows an outer skin but on the real thing they would be three-dimensional - boxed on the bottom sides. The half-round body side molding would run from the grille, down the side of the body, all the way down to the end of the rail. It would taper at the ends, down to nothing. At the bottom of the rails I would have cups to hold the tail lights. I'll model all this eventually.
Whadda ya guys think?
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-25-2007).]
Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...The rear suspension is the stock Fiero type lower arms and knuckle with transverse, quarter-elliptic leaf springs to replace the struts. I still have a LOT of design work and modeling to do to make this a reality, but the concept makes the Fiero-derived rear suspension fit the project...
Someone was sleep in class (j/k ) there aren't any struts. The leaf springs replace them. I knew it was a hot/cold idea. Either people would "see" the 27's rear deck in the rails, or think someone forgot to finish building the body. I wanted to see which...
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...It looks incomplete...
Agreed. I stared at both versions and thought about what I would do to make it look finished and decided that I like it better open. In fact, I want nothing back there but the powertrain and rear suspension. I am going to try and hide the chassis as much as possible by making the powertrain a stressed member.
One thing I am thinking about is pulling the rear frame rails in almost to the center and stretching the controls arms so that they extend from under the engine. Of course this depends on whether or not I will be able to incorporate the leaf spring inner mounts into the powertrain mounts. On the left side this should be pretty easy because the transaxle mounting lugs are right there. I want to curve a piece of round tubing to a plate bolted to the transaxle, and incorporating the spring mount shouldn't be a problem.
I am not sure about the other side though because it's the "front" of the motor. The only accessories will be the alternator and water pump, but that still means there has to be one belt. The 3100 also has a large aluminum contraption that houses the water pump. I am hoping that if I remove this I can run a conventional 2.8 style water pump, with a v-belt and find some good places to bolt up to the front of the motor. On Chevy V8 drag race aplications the front motor plate usually bolts to the water pump mounts and the water pump to it. I hope I can do something like this.
The two side mounts, and one to the front side of the block, would lock the powertrain to the chassis. These would be pretty stout to make it a stressed member. The end result should make the car look like it has a modern race car, modular, design. It would look like there's a powertrain unit bolted to an, F1-style, composite tub; with the front suspension mounted to the tub, and the rear to the powertrain unit.
Sorry to babble on... Just thinking out loud, to sort out some of the details. I will be away from the shop until after the New Year dawns, so I have to work on the car in my mind (dangerous ) and this computer. My December to-do list was more expensive than I had hoped, and took most of my project funds, but as soon as I get a couple bucks set aside again I'll start cutting and welding. The goal is to have a rolling chassis by the end of January, and start on the body in Feb...
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-28-2007).]
I really like the extended body lines, it was exactly what I had in mind. One thing that comes to mind with it, well actually 2, is that the cars of the time had the cab, then it cut off with a shelf type area that was the rounded end, maybe give a back to the cabin and start the arches shorter. And the other thing I was thinking that would be tricky but if done right would be kinda cool, make the arches out of the exhaust, not sure about the heat factor or the efficiency but if it was made in a quarter round kind of shape you could really make it a unique and helpful component. and as you said, just thinking out loud.
Originally posted by Bruno Mid Engine: Saw this at a car show in CleElum Central WA this last summer, Fiero drive train rear...
Nice street rod.
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Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Just something I saw surfing. Different direction but still cool http://www.decorides.com/
I like Deco's stuff. I really like the "wheel pants". Their fenders and "pants" would make for a really cool land speed style car, and I seriously considered something similar for this project, but it seems to be "happiest" being a bare bones, minimalist, race car.
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Originally posted by eph_kay: I really like the extended body lines, it was exactly what I had in mind... and as you said, just thinking out loud.Chris
I like the idea, but for some reason just seem to like this one stripped down to the essentials. If I don't do something like that on this car, the idea could surface again on a future project
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702cid V12 powered with a hand-formed aluminum body. Also features a glass grille and hand-blown glass taillights. A 20ft long, 8ft wide rolling sculpture. Description The B-702 is the latest creation from the Blastolene Brothers, Michael Leeds and Randy Grubb. The B-702, designed by Leeds, was inspired by the great French cars of the 1930's. The size of the car is surprising at 19.5 feet long and the 94" width makes a powerful impact. The dramatic separation between the body and pod-style front fenders is further highlighted by the glass grille bars and woodlight headlights. The 702cid V12 was produced from 1960-1965 by GMC for use in 2 ½ ton medium-duty trucks, producing 650 ft/lbs of torque at 850rpm on regular gasoline. A modern Allison 4-speed sends power to a 9" Ford Currie rear end. 4-wheel power disc brakes and power steering makes the 4,800lb car drive like a dream. The Blastolene Brothers are known for their oversized V12 powered custom cars. Their first project was the "Jay Leno Tank Car" which rocked the automotive world in 2002. This is the first Blastolene creation to be offered to the public. The hand-formed aluminum body rides on a custom frame and the entire chassis is nickel-plated or powdercoated to a show quality. The interior is finished in Maroon leather and the oversized speedometer cluster is a Lincoln Zephyr unit. Rear fenders and body are all one flowing piece. The deep separation between the body and fenders are accented by hand-blown glass taillights. Painted Midnight Blue, this should be considered a rolling piece of sculpture. Debuted at Quail Lodge in Monterey, CA, in August 2007, the B-702 is a new construction being offered for the first time. This uniquely American creation is a true one-of-a-kind coach-built masterpiece. The Blastolene Brothers have created the unique look of this latest creation by combining the American love of high-powered, large displacement engines with a refined, almost European design sensibility. The resulting blend is unique in the automotive world; a passionate design statement with the performance of traditional American Hot Rodding. **TITLED AS A 2007 ASSEMBLED**
[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 01-02-2008).]
I just came back from the Chrysler dealer and saw a concept car drawing that had exhaust pipes that stuck out a few inches and looked like a machine gun.
I like the extended rear frame rails, but I agree that it is in complete. I think it would look really badass if you had rear fenders for those meaty tires mounted straight to the top of the rails. If they followed the curvature, it would look as if they merely continued the body lines over the tires and would remove that incomplete look.
Wish I had to time to edit that pic of yours to visualize my idea better, though I am sure the idea was already considered and dismissed for a desire for a minimalistic style.
Just to stir the pot a little. As I get closer to doing some actual cutting and welding, I have been really pushing myself to think outside the box and make sure I am starting something that I will not grow bored with in a year. I do most of it in my head and when an idea really sticks I sketch and/or model it to see how it would translate into reality. Somehow, in the process of working on a side-view sketch of a sedan concept I remembered the Deco Rides cars Gokart posted - the wheel pants in particular - and ended up mentally flying across the salt flats. As my mind tore across the dry lake beds the body parts started blowing off and before I knew it I was staring at a side-view sketch of a bare-bones belly tanker! Spend a day with me and your life will never be the same again
I was intrigued enough to play around with it in 3D. The particulars include a whopping 130 inches of wheelbase, a transverse powertrain spun 90-degrees to twist a conventional stick axle, full tubular chassis with the main rails and rear suspension busting through the sides of the body, narrowed Fiero front suspension, and back to a tandem twin-seating arrangement. I thought about trying to keep the three-seat deal but it would interrupt the flow of the tank-style body. I haven't cut the cockpit or engine out yet. I just made a quick belly tank and slapped it on one of my pre-existing model chassis. I didn't follow the shape of the common P-38 tank either - I did it my way! I wanted a long radical taper back into the pig of the stick axle, that I emphasized by truncating the rear end of the body for the driveshaft to flow out of. The mock-up SBC motor is just there because it already was there. Ideally there would be a fat-n-sassy Northstar exploding out of a small opening. Big DOHC heads just kind of hanging over the sides of the body, and maybe eight tall Hilborn-style injection stacks reaching for the sky.
Am I changing the plan and doing this? I don't know. Right now I am just having a blast thinking about it; which makes me wonder if I should be thinking more seriously about it. Then I began to wonder what the PFF crew would think about it?
Careful, peering into my imagination is a slippery slope...
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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-17-2008).]
The particulars include a whopping 130 inches of wheelbase, a transverse powertrain spun 90-degrees to twist a conventional stick axle, full tubular chassis with the main rails and rear suspension busting through the sides of the body, narrowed Fiero front suspension, and back to a tandem twin-seating arrangement.
I wanted a long radical taper back into the pig of the stick axle, that I emphasized by truncating the rear end of the body for the driveshaft to flow out of.
Careful, peering into my imagination is a slippery slope...
It probably shouldn't be legal for us to talk about cars That's a BIG car! Not quite in the league of the Blastolene cars, but pretty substantial...
AWD crossed my mind, but not in the cards - this time.
The chassis in the belly tanker model posted above is already partially built and sitting in the shop. Actually the narrowed Fiero suspension was originally being done for it. Earlier this week I stuck it back in front of the chassis, approximately where it would be at 130-inches, and then propped my pedal assembly up in front of it; with the master cylinder hanging directly over the axle centerline. This set up look awesome, and was also a part of what led to the belly tanker sketches and modeling.
Today, I decided to stick the 31000/4T60E in place (spun 90-degrees, as mentioned) to see what that would look like. Pretty nice actually, and the narrow 60-degree V6 would actually work well with the narrow tank body. I had this thought of turning a tranvserse powertrain to drive a sick axle before and have done a little more research on it recently. I found out that a 35/35 tooth sprocket set is available which would put the motor and transmission at the desired 1:1 ratio. ALl I would have to do to make it work is fabricate a replacement for the final drive that converted it to 1:1. It would be really cool if I came up with some type of quick change type of assembly that would allow me to change the gearing for the street, drag strip, and salt flats. As for driving the stick axle, the forward output would be eliminated and a conventional driveshaft would run diagonally from the rear output to the rear end.
I am going to try to clean up a little next week and post some pics of this mock-up. My shop is a wreck right now because I am doing some "spring cleaning". The goal is to get rid of everything that isn't absolutely necessary. So far, I have gotten rid of a good bit of stuff and made a HUGE mess.
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If you're looking for opinions, I'm thinking the 3 seater would be the way to go too. You could build the Pontorpedo later. Sister cars, sit'em side by side at shows. Of course, you'll need a second driver. Dibs.
-fh
[This message has been edited by fierohobby (edited 01-19-2008).]
Again, this was borrowed from another model, and quickly hacked up, to get an idea what would work there. I do like the carbon fiber frames though..jpg)
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It looks incomplete. Can you put in the rear suspension? If the struts connect with the bars that'll give it purpose.
) there aren't any struts. The leaf springs replace them. I knew it was a hot/cold idea. Either people would "see" the 27's rear deck in the rails, or think someone forgot to finish building the body. I wanted to see which...
