I've been full time on this project since my post on the 9th and I am happy to say that I did not smell any electrical odors or see any smoke when I applied power to the system. There are still a number of things to finish with the engine install but it's about 80% ready. I tried to talk to the ecm with my laptop but the software said that the firmware needs updating. We will be away for the day tomorrow so its likely not to get fired up until next week sometime. I did a couple of other little upgrades like flipping the strut tops to gain an inch of up travel and welded up some sleeves to keep the top of the rear springs centered if the springs get unloaded. Hopefully there will not be any more setbacks. I am excited to see if the new Holley can self tune or not.
Waiting for the YouTube link to show proof that it runs again. Did not see any leaks after it warmed up to temp. I still need to set the rear wheel camber and recheck the alignment all around before driving it for tuning runs. I also noticed that the left rear caliper was unusually tight and will need to loosen it up a tad too Charlie
Got the rearend aligned pretty good but it was a pita using just a 24" level and a string line... Got the sliders on both rear calipers lubed up and they seem ok now. I've only run the engine that one time so now that the car is drivable, I'll see if I can get the base fuel map to self learn like it's supposed to. One of the other neat features of this ecm is that I was able to program a rpm limited cutoff for the a/c compressor. The v-5 has a maximum continuous rpm rating of 6500-7500 and with the 1.55-1 ratio to engine rpm, I felt setting a cutoff engine rpm of 4180 should keep it in a safe rpm range. In the same output parameter, I included the usual tps and coolant temp cutoff points. . I don't have the a/c hooked up just yet but if the ecm and engine run as they should, that's the next and last thing to do before I can say it's completed.
As usual, not everything goes as planned. The car started right up and I ran it for about 15-20 minutes and watched it self tune for the last couple of those minutes after it was up to operating temp. Then I shut it down and went in for dinner. When I tried re-starting after dinner, it would not fire. I may be about to find out why the 950 was not working well. This system uses a slightly different method of getting power and I suspect that one if not two of the three power sources (stock Fiero power wires) might be intermittent. I am taking power from the junction block just below the C-500 using the same mono plug that the original Fiero ecm was powered by and the source of power I used for the 950. Also, I am using switched power from the original Fiero wiring coming out of the C-500. The third source of power for the Holley ecm comes directly from the battery itself and I am pretty sure that is a good connection so I'll check it last. The issue seems to be that the injectors and the ignition are not firing during cranking. The switched power source is supposed to be hot in both "run" and "crank" from the ignition switch. It's possible after 27 years that there might be a problem with the ignition switch. This power runs the relay that provides power for the spark, injectors and the fuel pump signal. The relay in question is the one from the 950 because it has a mounting lug and the new one did not. That will be the first thing I swap out. The relay connects the power from the original Fiero ecm power wire to the spark and injectors. The plug might not be connecting very well and or the wire itself might be internally corroded. I'll be checking for that right after modifying the new relay with a means of mounting it and installing it. I remembered yesterday that this car also has a headlight gremlin. Sometimes both motors work normally, sometimes neither work at all and sometimes only the right motor works and the left does not. I have an extra headlight module but will check the connections first to see if that is all it is.
I am happy to report that it was neither the switched nor the always hot from the Fiero electrical system. It was one last ooops in the wiring harness that I missed. The ignition coil was drawing power from the fuel pump/injector relay and in doing so, was not energized unless the fuel pump was running during the "prime" period before cranking the engine. Since I'm still using the stock fuel pump relay (getting its signal from the new Holley supplied relay) I just need to take the signal wire from the Holley relay and run it to the stock fuel pump relay. Then I will use the stock "switched" power from C-500 to signal the Holley relay which will power the ignition coil and injectors anytime the key is in the run/start position. Easy-peasy! While I have the battery out, I might as well unplug and clean all the headlight motor plugs and grounds. Hopefully that will be all that is needed for those to work properly. will report later on progress...
Got the wiring changes done and it fires up right away... One problem solved... I cleaned the grounds and the connectors for the headlight motors and now they won't budge. I will check the fusible links near the C-500 and if they are good, then I will pull the left front wheel well liner and clean the plug for the module. If that does not cut it then I'll replace the module with my spare. Hoping that will do it.
Took the car for a few miles of tuning, sooooo much better now! I'm at the a/c shop were they are fabbing up the new manifold that will hook the lines together. Looking promising so far.
I met up with you some years back, at a Fiero meet, when you were just starting on this car. Very cool to see you have got in on the road!!!
Thank you! It has been quite awhile. Was it Just you, me and Roland (and possibly his daughter) in the rain? That's the last get together I've been to that I can recall. It's been several years or more...
I met up with you some years back, at a Fiero meet, when you were just starting on this car. Very cool to see you have got in on the road!!!
Thank you! It has been quite awhile. Was it Just you, me and Roland (and possibly his daughter) in the rain? That's the last get together I've been to that I can recall. It's been several years or more...
Charlie [/QUOTE]
It was the Mt. Lemon trip. You drove your 87. My son and I went in my 88Gt 4.9. He is a Jr. and high school now and it painting the car for me and adding an engine vent. I don't recall the last meet I went to. Before 2010 or so. Is the Phoenix group still meeting?
Wow, that was quite awhile ago. I remember my fuel pump acting up and having troubles getting up the hill...
It is great that your son is helping out with your car. Hopefully you two will get to enjoy it for years to come.
I saw on a thread in General chat that there was a couple of Phoenix get-to-gethers late last year and early this year. I am not sure if there will be anymore before late fall.
CPTSNOOPY Hi Charley - 'Glad to see you got your car running good. I rode with you on youtube on your tuning drive and it sure sounds good! I'm waiting for the day when you can post a full- throttle run through the gears. I'll never experience that in my little V-6 Fiero. Now I'm waiting to see your car "in person". PDEMONDO Hi Pete- To add a little to what Charlie told you - Kevin, "Kee588T", has been organizing some get-togethers. You can find the history over in the General Fiero Chat under "How many of us in Phoenix, or in Arizona?". The most recent was in February and was attended by Kevin, Rowland, Don, Mike, Ron, and Steve (in a Firebird). I'm the new guy in the bunch, Kevin is the only one who I've met, so I'm looking forward to making some of the future events and meeting you and Charley and some more of the PFF gang. 'Hope this helps. (Sorry I hijacked your post, Charley.) - Jim
Hi Jim, not a hijack, thank you for helping with info for Pete. With the higher temps just around the corner, I'd be surprised to see any more gatherings until after Halloween when things start to cool off again. Even though my car seems to be drivable now, it's still a work in progress until the tuning is satisfactory and I get some of the booboo's I did to the paint touched up. After that it will be just standard maintenance I hope. Oh, and after I get the a/c lines completed and the system charged. It will be interesting to see if it can handle making cold air on a hot day without overheating.
Hopefully one last fix to the wiring harness. When I checked the harness I did not go further with the IAC wires than to verify they were in the correct pin slots at the computer. What I did not check and did not know was the correct pin slots at the IAC plug. It turns out 2 of the wires were reversed. Needless to say, the IAC is not working... Now that I have it figured out, I can correct the harness and replace the IAC valve with the NOS one from the Shelby throttle body. Hopefully that will happen soon, then maybe we can finish the a/c lines.
Went out for a short tuning ride last evening. Still stumbles coming off idle especially after slowing down and then getting back on the throttle. However, once the engine is making power it is nice, smooth and pulls hard. I did full throttle tuning runs in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears to try and get numbers all over the map. I will have to fill in the rest. So far, I am very happy with the setup and how its performing power wise. The rest should be tunable so I will report back on that progress.
After reading some info on the Holley systems in use, I tried a couple of their suggestions. One was to run both Alpha-N (tps vs rpm for idle and just off idle) and Speed Density (map vs rpm for the rest of the fuel map). Another was to enrich the fuel map in the throttle closed area when the engine is decelerating so that reduces the amount of fuel suddenly needed when the throttle blades are opened again to accelerate. Those two things made a very big difference compared to just trying to solve the stumble using only the acceleration enrichment values.
I sense that there is still a slight stumble if the conditions are just right but further tuning should cure that.
So far, looking pretty good. Still working on getting the custom a/c manifold finished. Then we can see if this setup can handle the AZ heat...
The pics were taken after this mornings test drive. The changes helped quite a lot. Much less shifting stumble along with a good off idle start every time. As I suspected, there is a little more tuning to erase the stumble and I think I'll reduce the decel cutoff restart to less than 300rpm above idle. It jerks the car slightly when decelerating and getting close to 1000 rpm. Just little things like that to fix then I should be set. For now though it is very fun to drive & is very drivable. I just try to remember that the trans is glass, especially in 2nd gear. . However I do like the ratios, I've gone over 80mph in 3rd and it's only around 4700-5000 rpm. I've got plenty of room above that. I have not tried going faster than 90 yet but that day will come.
I hit 105 at 7000 RPM in 3rd with the Getrag... the Isuzu 3rd is slightly shorter, but the final drive is 8% taller, so you may be able to pop the headlight doors in 3rd ;-)
I hit 105 at 7000 RPM in 3rd with the Getrag... the Isuzu 3rd is slightly shorter, but the final drive is 8% taller, so you may be able to pop the headlight doors in 3rd ;-)
Looking forward to finding out. Will the headlights still pop up around 110 mph with a hood vent or has anyone verified that they will stay down longer?
Went for a nice drive with 3 other Fiero's today. 127 miles round trip. The stumble is almost gone. There are a few more things to try to get rid of it all together and I am confident it will be good once I get a chance to play with some more. I really like how it drives and also, how it sounds. My wife is very happy with it too. It is still running a little rich and it only averaged 19.8 mph for the trip. I am curious to see how much that can be improved over time.
Here are some pics of Myra's brother Greg getting a quick ride and one of us at the Rock Springs Cafe.
Charlie
[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 05-17-2015).]
Due to the ITB's and the difficulty getting an accurate manifold air pressure, I'm going to try a tune using Alpha-N. Should be interesting, but not sure if it's the best option.
Due to the ITB's and the difficulty getting an accurate manifold air pressure, I'm going to try a tune using Alpha-N. Should be interesting, but not sure if it's the best option.
Charlie
Ill pitch in here
I have a vw rabbit with a vr6 swap that I turbo charged and made a custom ITB intake, I hold about 5-10inHg of vacuum depending on the day, and sadly couldn't use alpha-N because of the turbo, so I build the car with a MAF sensor and have been using megasquirt to control it, and it has a feature to use a VE table to act as a "trim table" to help add a load factor in. ITBs with boost are a pain to tune, and although most stand alones suck at MAF control I am very happy I did it on my car
So in other words, I think you will have good luck with your alpha-n and hopefully there is some ability to do some trim tables based on load.
Megasquirt actually has an ITB mode, which ofcouse you can't use with boost. But it runs alpha-n down low and shifts to SD based on a table, including a calibratable blend area.
Thank you for the info Chris. The Dominator allows for Alpha-N idle and SD off idle but I'm not sure if a true hybrid is available with it. I'll play with it a bit and see how it goes.
Thank you for the info Chris. The Dominator allows for Alpha-N idle and SD off idle but I'm not sure if a true hybrid is available with it. I'll play with it a bit and see how it goes.
Charlie
I haven't quite followed your thread enough, other than drooling over the itbs
Where was the stumble happening?
I was have a huge lean spike and crazy stumble on initial throttle trying to get rolling from a start, and one of the things I was able to do was a setting they called wall wetting. Its a form of acceleration enrichment that basically works of the idea that some of the fuel from a itb set up sticks to the wall worse than a high vacuum stock set up, and requires adding more fuel on initial tip in. It helped a lot with my car
I haven't quite followed your thread enough, other than drooling over the itbs
Where was the stumble happening?
I was have a huge lean spike and crazy stumble on initial throttle trying to get rolling from a start, and one of the things I was able to do was a setting they called wall wetting. Its a form of acceleration enrichment that basically works of the idea that some of the fuel from a itb set up sticks to the wall worse than a high vacuum stock set up, and requires adding more fuel on initial tip in. It helped a lot with my car
Chris
Yes, a tip in stumble both from idle and worse from shifting. The guy that put this ITB setup together had the vacuum issue and put check valves on 7 of the 8 vacuum ports and fed all 8 to an air chamber that had the MAP sensor mounted on it. It is a good workaround and the only issue I was having with that is that it would increase vacuum quickly when the throttle was closed but when the throttle was opened, the one vacuum port without a check valve was not enough to release the vacuum and it ramped up over several seconds. So the computer was thinking that the load was less than what was really happening and it would pick a point on the map that was much leaner than needed. Enriching the fuel map and increasing AE helped quite a bit to cover delay in vacuum change but I never took the time to try and fully tune it out. When I was looking at the data logs and saw what was happening, I decided to try removing another one of the check valves. all that did was reduce the vacuum from idle at 40Kpa to 50Kpa. I still need to look at the most recent data to see if the ramp up has gotten better or is the only effect not pulling as much vacuum. I might be in a situation where I just need to fine tune the ITB builder's solution to work better with my setup.
Oddly enough, since you are running speed density, you might set up like a blow off valve type thing that vents the vacuum right after a shift and then builds it back up.
This is just thinking out loud, I haven't thought all that through yet
On the other hand, I might put some check valves between my itb idle lines and my vacuum manifold to attempt to increase the vacuum seen at idle. I also run manual brakes so I don't need any vacuum, so I get to cheat a little
Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Yes, a tip in stumble both from idle and worse from shifting. The guy that put this ITB setup together had the vacuum issue and put check valves on 7 of the 8 vacuum ports and fed all 8 to an air chamber that had the MAP sensor mounted on it. It is a good workaround and the only issue I was having with that is that it would increase vacuum quickly when the throttle was closed but when the throttle was opened, the one vacuum port without a check valve was not enough to release the vacuum and it ramped up over several seconds. So the computer was thinking that the load was less than what was really happening and it would pick a point on the map that was much leaner than needed. Enriching the fuel map and increasing AE helped quite a bit to cover delay in vacuum change but I never took the time to try and fully tune it out. When I was looking at the data logs and saw what was happening, I decided to try removing another one of the check valves. all that did was reduce the vacuum from idle at 40Kpa to 50Kpa. I still need to look at the most recent data to see if the ramp up has gotten better or is the only effect not pulling as much vacuum. I might be in a situation where I just need to fine tune the ITB builder's solution to work better with my setup.
Charlie
Try ditching all the check valves. There's no danger in cross-talk among the throttles. OE's who use throttle per cylinder (mostly BMW) use fairly large connecting passages between the throttles for vacuum accessories... of course they also typically run MAF based engine management and not speed density.
Try ditching all the check valves. There's no danger in cross-talk among the throttles. OE's who use throttle per cylinder (mostly BMW) use fairly large connecting passages between the throttles for vacuum accessories... of course they also typically run MAF based engine management and not speed density.
I'm going to try Alpha-N tuning first then if I'm not happy with that, I'll try going back to SD and experimenting with the check valves.
Initial trials using Alpha-N backed with wbO2 compensation are very good. Much better than SD for drivability. I had a little issue with deceleration fuel cutoff when I first loaded the new changes from SD to AN so I left it turned off. I have some leaning to do in the higher rpm/low TPS areas of the map but other than that it should be ok. I'm not sure if I'll ever get any dyno numbers for it but I like how it drives. ~2750 rpm for 80mph in 5th gear. I'm guessing that I'll get around 20-22 mpg unless I lean the target AFR table for economy instead of performance.
I went ahead and capped off the 8 vacuum ports being used for the MAP sensor and pulled the 7 check valves and tubing out. The Holley has a baro sensor in the ecu but I left the MAP sensor plugged in reading ambient pressure just in case.
The high pressure a/c hardline ruptured under the car last night. It appears that there must've been some internal corrosion over the years. Now to decide on how to fix it. The a/c was working great up to that point.
Charlie
[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 05-21-2015).]
heading back into the garage now... 
One problem solved... I cleaned the grounds and the connectors for the headlight motors and now they won't budge. I will check the fusible links near the C-500 and if they are good, then I will pull the left front wheel well liner and clean the plug for the module. If that does not cut it then I'll replace the module with my spare. Hoping that will do it. .JPG)
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