The Alpha-N with wbO2 tuning is certainly more drivable with the ITB's. I will leave it that way for now and see how it handles the seasonal weather changes. Here are some pictures from the Scottsdale Pavilions (McDonald's) weekly car show yesterday afternoon. Lots of great cars to check out! That is my wonderful wife Myra with me. (She supports and really likes our little Fiero )
Starting to warm up here. I have the car up on blocks to get to the high pressure a/c line. I'm planning on replacing as much of it as possible after it burst (pinhole) last week. I started by removing all the clamps and undoing the connectors at each end. On this car, it no longer goes to the driver's side near the air cleaner but has a connector welded on that brings it flush with the rear of the fuel tank. I am not interested in removing the spare tire tub and disconnecting the brake lines which means I'll probably need to use a short run of flex hose up front. After removing the clamps, I cut the line as close to the steering shaft dust boot as possible and removed the longer rear section. While I was fiddling around with trying to remove the forward section I noticed that there is a connector located in the line just above the steering boot! So much for thinking I had changed all the o-rings... Luckily it did not leak there (nor did it on my 86 apparently) but I suppose it may be possible to pull the line out if I can figure a way to loosen and disconnect that hidden connector. If so, it should help reduce the cost of replacing the entire line. (I suspect that there was corrosion in the lowest part of the original line where it burst) Until this is fixed, the car will remain up on blocks... Need a/c out here!
Thank you Bob! It has been a fun journey. Probably will be never ending. I've seen what you want yours to look like and I hope it works out as it looks very exciting!
Still stalled... Received to two pieces of 1/2" OD aluminum line from Summit Racing. One is 5 feet long and the other that I plan to try using first is 6 feet long. I went looking for a suitable bender for this size tubing but nothing looked like it would work well enough to risk using it. I went ahead and ordered a lever bender from Zoro tools that was reasonably priced at $50. It should safely bend 1/4", 3/16", 3/8" and 1/2" soft copper and aluminum tubing. Hopefully it'll show up sometime next week. Until then, the car remains up on the blocks...
Drove the Fiero roughly 50 miles today. I'm hoping to smooth out the fuel map and start leaning things out for better mileage on the highway. Right now, I'm feeling lucky to get 20mpg and I am thinking I should at least be getting 24 or better...
A picture from a few minutes ago. Putting her away for the night.
Did a major adjustment of the fuel map and drove the car last Thursday long enough for it to show signs of not being able to stay cool in the AZ summer heat. However, it was running noticeably better than before. When I get my laptop out I'll post pictures of the fuel map changes. It was waaay too rich on the low load/higher rpm part of the map.
I know you know you can pull the bucket out of the front compartment to make that job cake...
Yes, except some dummy ran their positive battery wire conduit through a hole they made in the bucket. Then after considering the things I could do to get the bucket free of the conduit I also realized I'd have to take several if not all the extra bolts out for the front battery box. The good news is that the new line is working. The bad news is that I think I bent the insides of the new v-5 compressor and probably need a new one. Oooops! It still cools but it is horribly noisy now...
Here are the changes I made to the fuel map. There are a couple things to note. When I received the base map from chrfab it was for a normal N* (I just assume a L-36 vin 9) It had a max rpm of 6300. I put in the springs and retainers from chrfab so I changed the rpm range from 700-6300 to 700-7500. The rpm axis is populated as follows for resolution in the more commonly driven rpms...
The advantage of using higher resolution in the commonly driven areas is to have the ability to obtain a finer tune and improve drive-ability for street use.
The disadvantage for the guy working the fuel map is that you cannot use the tools included to fill in gaps between cells that you know are good. Lets say you have a value at 1500 rpm and a value at 2100 rpm that you like and you want to simply fill in the values between them with even spacing. That works fine if the rpm numbers are evenly spaced as in the second example but if they are like I have them in the first example the values will fill in the blocks evenly but the rpm values are not equal so the values are off. Using the above example of numbers between 1500 and 2100 rpm. I have 200 rpm spacing from 1500 to 1900 rpm then 100 rpm spacing from 1900-2100 rpm. If the value at 1500 rpm is 20 and the value at 2100 is 26 then the computer will fill the three remaining blocks with equal (linear) numbers in the cells 1700-1900-2000. so the whole line from 1500 to 2100 would look like 20-21.5-23-24.5-26 The problem is that I am looking for the same amount of increase per rpm increase so I have to take the difference between cells 1500-2100 which is 6 and divide that by 600 (2100-1500=600) to get the actual amount of increase per rpm. Then I multiply that by the number of rpm increase per the particular cell I am trying to populate. So, the the cells from 1500-2100 should look like 20-22-24-25-26 as the resolution changes. Unfortunately the software is not written to do this for you. It only counts the number of cells between end points selected and fills them in with equal values.
The reason for trying to explain the above is to help you understand why it took nearly 16 hours to change the fuel map from the original to the new (using the "self learning" feature for reference points) when it would have only taken a couple of hours if I had not changed resolution in different rpm (and TPS) areas of the map. I am hoping this was worth the time as I am still quite a ways from having it tuned correctly.
Charlie
Here is the fuel map that is a couple of iterations from what chrfab sent me. The current learn values have distorted the map and are colored green. The original map is blue. I then started working on it to capture the "highs" and "lows" of the learned reference points and the map came out radically different. So different I thought it would not likely run but to my surprise it actually ran noticeably better.
Here is the fuel map about 1/4 of the way through the transition process. I think I had spent over 4 hours on it by this point. Here you can see how radically the lower end of the map (low TPS values) have been leaned out. This might partly be from changing to Alpha-N from Speed-Density but I am guessing I would have done something similar using Speed-Density too.
Here is the final rough draft before trying it.
Here is the fuel map after the first tuning drive on it. It has more work to be done but it looks like I went in the right direction.
[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 07-05-2015).]
It was a little cooler out earlier this morning so Myra and I took the Fiero out for a trip to the store and 6 miles of freeway driving. This was to enjoy the car as well as getting the coolant and oil circulated through the engine... With the Alpha-N tuning and the revised fuel map along with the learning the car has done since the one drive after revising the fuel map, I have to say, it's running just awesomely! After it was fully warmed up we did a couple of 3rd gear pulls from 60 to 80mph just to feel the power and listen to the sweet music that engine makes! It really is a pleasure to drive. I doubt it will beat any of the newer generation of muscle cars but it certainly is much more powerful than a stock Fiero. We are looking forward to cooler temps in the fall and getting out on the road to enjoy the car more. The one thing I really noticed is that the off idle stumble is gone.
I was getting a little frustrated trying to keep the a/f balance between the front and rear cylinder banks even using the wbo2 sensors. The front bank was rich at idle and would go lean at higher rpms compared to the rear cylinders. I played with it for awhile and tried sniffing for vacuum leaks but did not come up with anything definitive. So, I switched back to the stock intake manifold which surprisingly went in without too much modification. At first the idea was to get it together enough to test and see what the idle a/f ratio was between the front and rear cylinders. Once that was done, I fired it up and surprise, they were equal, right at 14.7. Given that, I modified the CAI to get filtered air to the throttle body and installed the IAT sensor. Hopefully it'll be ready for some road testing in a day or two.
This is the stock manifold in place for a test run.
This is the screen shot of the engine idling. Note the a/f mixtures match!
I cut off the mounting end of the MAF housing and used it as a flange to clamp the 3.5" tubing to. Also mounted the IAT sensor in the tubing, hope it holds up ok...
One of the main reasons for using the ITB setup (besides it looking so cool) was to avoid having to modify the shifter cables for the air intake. Here you can see its a tight but manageable fit...
Getting closer. Needs cleaning up. The throttle cable has to be modified to work. The fuel vapor canister and brake booster vacuum lines need to be connected. Should be good to go after that.
I had to solder on a GM TPS connector but other than that it was pretty straightforward getting the stock manifold swapped in.
Here it is in its final form. One wire bundle was too short to route around the intake manifold so it had to cross over the top...
And, here is the new RetroSound Newport radio, looks authentic but has late model technology such as USB and bluetooth. does not play CD's or cassettes though.
I can't say how bad the front upper a-arm alignment system is on an 88. really a pos in my book... But, after noticing that the left front wheel was not in alignment, I set about getting it right. as usual, if I set the caster and camber correctly, then tightened the bolts, the teeth in the cross shaft would just slide back into the original grooves causing the camber to move negative again. grrrr. So, i moved the caster and camber beyond what was needed and tried for the fourth time to tighten down the bolts and this time it was enough to make new grooves in the metal. Yay! The caster and camber are within limits although not perfect. The caster is slightly more positive than the right and the camber is slightly more positive also. The good news is that those settings appear to be correct for cross-caster and cross-camber. I reset the toe and the car handles sooooo much better! Life is good again. I am not getting great gas mileage atm. To much pushing on the gas peddle I suspect... That issue I can work on slowly...
I can't say how bad the front upper a-arm alignment system is on an 88. really a pos in my book... But, after noticing that the left front wheel was not in alignment, I set about getting it right. as usual, if I set the caster and camber correctly, then tightened the bolts, the teeth in the cross shaft would just slide back into the original grooves causing the camber to move negative again. grrrr. So, i moved the caster and camber beyond what was needed and tried for the fourth time to tighten down the bolts and this time it was enough to make new grooves in the metal. Yay! The caster and camber are within limits although not perfect. The caster is slightly more positive than the right and the camber is slightly more positive also. The good news is that those settings appear to be correct for cross-caster and cross-camber. I reset the toe and the car handles sooooo much better! Life is good again. I am not getting great gas mileage atm. To much pushing on the gas peddle I suspect... That issue I can work on slowly...
Just a quickie winter update. Not a lot to report. I have had the opportunity to adjust the starting fuel parameters for colder temps and so far that is working quite well. The alignment is holding up well and a/c still works. I turned it on for a few minutes while driving to keep the oil distributed throughout the system and wet the seals...
I'm not driving it a whole lot but when I do, its a lot of fun.
Sorry if I missed it, but what is your plan with the intake? Are you going to keep the the stock manifold or the itbs? Large investment to not use the prettier one
So then next question I have, how much of a difference in intake sound did you notice? did you get the distinctive itb sound?
My vr6 turbo rabbit has ITBs and with the boost plenum I have I don't really get to hear the fun noises they make
Sorry if I missed it, but what is your plan with the intake? Are you going to keep the the stock manifold or the itbs? Large investment to not use the prettier one
So then next question I have, how much of a difference in intake sound did you notice? did you get the distinctive itb sound?
My vr6 turbo rabbit has ITBs and with the boost plenum I have I don't really get to hear the fun noises they make
Chris
It was a large investment and if I could have ironed out the manifold pressure sensor issues I think I'd still be running it. For the sake of simplicity and reliability, I am going to stick with the stock intake manifold. It is running great even though I am sure a trip to the dyno would help. I did not notice a big difference in intake noise from one intake to the other. Probably because it gets pretty noisy from the exhaust note when I step on the throttle. I have had many compliments on the sound of this setup from people I've been driving next to. They love it.
I would would sell it with the intake box I fabbed up for a third of what I paid for it. I am certainly not sorry I bought it, I think Russ did a fantastic job making these, it is just not something I want to continuously tinker with.
I had quite the time getting fueling to work right on my itbs, most people on megasquirt get to set up one fueling table and have it be good, I had to use my maf, then use tps tuning as an adder to give the fuel spike needed right at throttle opening, and then add to use the ve table as a third multiplier to get it to run quite well, then after 6 months of sitting got in it yesterday and running down the road at 11:1 afr it takes some work to make it all happen
Anyway, if I wasn't all car funded out right now I would take you up on buying that intake, might have to add some structure to the air box for going boosted, but that all depends on when I put my planned n* project together. So I might still yet be getting a hold of you down the road if you do still have it
Will contacted me about the itb setup. It's going to him as soon as I can get time to box it up. Hopefully he will have some good numbers to show us when he gets it working for him.
drove the Fiero again on Sunday, it sure is fun accelerating onto the freeway in 3rd gear!
my last post ^^^ above was just after we moved into a new place with a shop. Now just over a year later, we've completed the modifications needed to install a 2-post lift and have ordered one. will be nice to be able to lift the car and figure out a viable fix for the a/c compressor hose manifold that I believe has failed due to fatigue from engine vibration. Once we get that fixed then we can drive in the summer months again.
Hey Charlie! Glad to see you got the car running again! I just got my Indy back on the road and registered after 5+ years fiddling. On your A/C manifold, you might want to look at the bolt holding the manifold to the compressor. I have to check the one om my 4.9 regularly since it likes to work loose and leak. Same compressor as the one you are using. Don't know why but it does!
Thank you for the tip Rolland! I'll try to get that checked soon. I'm under a time crunch to get the shop certified and an application for solar on the roof submitted before the end of this month. That's one of the reasons I did not make the dew wipe replacement day at Steve's. I should have a car lift up and running in a couple weeks if everything works out. Then the Fiero will get some proper attention again.
Got the shop bathroom built and the shop itself certified. Next is rooftop solar and air conditioning. Then... finish installing the lift... I looked for the freon leak thinking it would be the manifold lines at the compressor but everything looks clean and tight. I ended up finding the leak at the high pressure inlet connection at the new condenser. I replaced the relatively new o-ring and recharged with freon. I suspect it won't last long though. After a test drive we cleaned the dust off and parked it back in the shop. Except for the the few things that need attention, the Fiero is doing very well.
Thought I had posted this. I’ve had an annoying chirp from the serpentine belt since I got it running. I’m new to serpentine belts and did not know it’s most likely because the pulleys are out of alignment. I almost used some belt dressing before reading about noisy belts online. So, I bought a laser alignment checker and sure enough the one accessory I did not fab a custom mount for was out of alignment. I was about to start dropping the cradle to get to the alternator and move it using a washer to line up with the rest of the pulleys when I decide to try cutting one rib from the belt first. It ended up working great as the alternator was roughly one rib out of alignment. When I end up dropping the cradle for whatever comes up next I’ll get all the pulleys lined up right at that time. Just need to pull the rear coil overs and put slightly bigger bump stops in so the rear tires stop rubbing the wheel well liners when going over bigger bumps.
Hello Charlie!! Congrats on your build, that is sure a lot of work but lots of work well done. Been enjoying this build! Keep going!!
Rei
thank you Rei, It’s been a fun project and to my surprise the Fiero runs pretty well. 300hp and 7500 rpm won’t win races against real muscle cars but it is a blast to play around in.
I remember this Cadillac with that same V8 you have with twin turbos at the Washinton GP back in the 2000's It sounded so sweet off the corners!! And I belive it won the race. What happened to the ITB set up?
That car had the racing engine based off the L-47 but it’s a completely different and much more powerful engine. The Shelby L-47 has the intake cams from the 300hp N* and that’s the only modification that I’m aware of. I could not get the itb’s to run right because I was unable to get a good map signal from the system to the computer. I tried running alpha-N but it was not nearly as drivable as the stock manifold. I told Will I was going to give the setup to him but I’m embarrassed to say I never got around to building a shipping box for it so it’s still here collecting dust until I get to it.
I've been to Afghanistan for a year and come back since you said you'd do that.
My recurrent training this Saturday is about my only excuse left... Adding to the August update on the shop, we finished the solar install and also got the car lift up n running... a couple of pics...
Last Saturday I found myself mixed in with 3 Lamborghinis, 2 Porsches and an Audi on my way to the Concours in the hills car show. What a fun time! This car show was by far the best I’ve ever seen and I only had time to check out about 100 of the over 900 cars on display.
I finally got around to pulling the rear struts and swapping in new taller bump stops. I took my wife for a short drive hitting the bumps that had been causing the rear tires to rub and it appears that the problem has been solved. Now I just need to re-balance the wheels in hopes of getting rid of the annoying vibration that happens above 78mph. Otherwise the car is running great
You have probably the nicest, properly modified and sorted Fiero that I have ever seen (having never really seen it of course). Thankyou for sharing the details of this build. You did the Fiero proud amongst that crowd of exotics on your way to the Concourse. Any photos from the event with your Fiero amongst them that you can share with us ?
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