quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Thanks. I had contacted Cosworth immediately following winning the auction. Right now I'm waiting for paperwork regarding that kit to be pulled from their archives. Nate

I wouldn't mind a copy of that when you get it.

When you get this info, for sure post it online somewhere! I am interested in what you do for cams and such.

Wow I just realized how much that cyl head looks like the one on my 2.0 cosworth. The port shape and sizes and location is identical though its nice to see it coming together.

Say, I have been following this thread and I must say that you are INSANE. That's a compliment, son. I think I may have something for you on camshafts, it's only a lead, but, having dealth with finding rare parts myself, I know that any lead helps.

If you go to http://www.aardemasohc.net/index_files/Page517.htm you'll see where he adapted TWO Fiero Cosworth heads to an aluminum Donovan Chevy block. Reading further, it says that he had Schneider camshafts grind his cams from billet.

quote Originally posted by niemann99: Say, I have been following this thread and I must say that you are INSANE. That's a compliment, son. I think I may have something for you on camshafts, it's only a lead, but, having dealth with finding rare parts myself, I know that any lead helps. If you go to http://www.aardemasohc.net/index_files/Page517.htm you'll see where he adapted TWO Fiero Cosworth heads to an aluminum Donovan Chevy block. Reading further, it says that he had Schneider camshafts grind his cams from billet.

Thanks, I think.

About those cams...SWEET! That link could end up helping ALOT. I found their website before, but apparently it was an old version, didn't have the link or info about the cams. Thanks!

Bump, what happened to the SOHC head?

It's actually a SUHC head, I still have it in case I can't make the DOHC work.

Oh, so the SD4 is a pushrod I-4? Sorry SUHC sounds funny to me...

Did you ever get ahold of cams? This project is so sweet I want a DOHC SD4 now forget V6s. What kind of power do you think you'll get 500? WIth 370 n/a cars 500 seem plausible. What tranny are you going to run?

You are very welcome, hope you can track down some cams, I'm sure everyone here would LOVE to see that super duty engine running with the DOHC kit.

Maybe cams for a cosworth vega would work because the DOHC head is just like it and I know crane cams has a couple grinds and cams they offer for the cosworth head. its woth checking out because I am doing something similar with a 2.0 DOHC vega block and any little help is worth it.

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Oh, so the SD4 is a pushrod I-4? Sorry SUHC sounds funny to me... Did you ever get ahold of cams? This project is so sweet I want a DOHC SD4 now forget V6s. What kind of power do you think you'll get 500? WIth 370 n/a cars 500 seem plausible. What tranny are you going to run?

What the heck is SUHC? Wonder what type of power that V8 with the SD4 heads put out?

Single Under Head Cam, a.k.a. Pushrod.

quote Originally posted by crytical point: Maybe cams for a cosworth vega would work because the DOHC head is just like it and I know crane cams has a couple grinds and cams they offer for the cosworth head. its woth checking out because I am doing something similar with a 2.0 DOHC vega block and any little help is worth it.

That's what I thought at first too...Unfortunately it's a no-go. Here's a pic of the Vega topside:


And a pic of my topside:


On the SD head, the cam bearing bosses are located in between the valve tappet bores. This is a good thing because it minimizes cam flex by reducing the distance from the load on the cam to the support. On the Vega head, however, the cam bearings are located to either side of a set of valves for a single cylinder. In addition, the Vega motor, as well as other 4cyl Cosworth engines, use belt-driven camshafts, whereas the SD head uses a chain drive.

So the camshafts that I need are actually extremely similar to the Cosworth XB, XD, and XF series of Champ Car engines:

Same bearing arrangement, also chain driven camshafts, it even has the same valve/port angle. but I doubt the bore and valve spacing is the same.

And if you thought your pushrod Duke cam gear was noisy...

Imagine that at 13,000 RPM.

quote Originally posted by thebaron: What the heck is SUHC? Wonder what type of power that V8 with the SD4 heads put out?

Single Under Head Cam. The 2.65 litre Cosworth XF V8 with similar heads put out 800HP on methanol and boost. Add another 3 litres of displacement....

bummer ... but worth a try mentioning. Is the SD4 head 2 piece or solid because mine is 2 piece on the vega. I am really impressed by cosworth's design and over all performance combined with reliability. Currently the cosworth club is working with Fidanza to get some adjustable sprokets but when that is done I could spin the engine to 11,000 and make a potent race car but I am going turbo but I will not hit your hp numbers or anywhere near them. I should be sitting at 420-450 hp at 8500 and 37psi but to be safe I will sit at just 400hp and 32psi but my engine will weight in at 260lbs wet with all accessories which willbring my car to a little under 1700lbs and a near perfect 50/50 distribution roblem is keeping in staight at top rpm.

How are you planning to cool this monster of a 4 banger? Intercooler for the turbo? How about bringing her to a halt? What is planned for the rest of car?

A couple of good heads (along with some other goodies bolted on).

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 07-30-2007).]

quote Originally posted by thebaron: How are you planning to cool this monster of a 4 banger? Intercooler for the turbo? How about bringing her to a halt? What is planned for the rest of car?

Planning on using some kind of aftermarket radiator. The IC is an air/water Spearco, I think it's on page 5, I'll run that with a full width heat exchanger up front. The stopping is yet to be determined, I have stock rears and the GA upgrade fronts. Right now I'm thinking 13" Wilwood GT rotors and hats with Red Devil 300 Series calipers that I already have for a different project that they were too heavy for.




I begin on suspension and interior improvements after the engine is finished and the car sees the track at least once.

Looking sweet. Any good news on cams?

No news, I e-mailed a couple of places that haven't responded yet. Apparently I need to try the telephone.

Something along the lines of what I might build for the DOHC intake.

Just a little update...I'm in school right now, working also, and now getting ready to start building a house with my fiance by the end of the year. Soooo....IOW.......No REAL progress on this project. Funds are getting stretched thin a little bit. I'm passively looking for camshafts, but I doubt I would be able to afford them right now even if I found them.

OTOH, I have been investigating in-depth this ECM:
http://www.vems.hu/products.html
http://shop.vems.hu/catalog...ath=1&products_id=29

It's very powerful, not as user friendly as the MegaSquirt, and it costs much more. The lowest price that I could come to for a unit that would suit me was about $700, including alot of the wiring and connectors. BUT it does 8 individual sequential injector control, and I can run REAL COP with it instead of wasted spark. It's also a wideband sensor controller, and it does these things out of the box. I'll have to see where it's at when I get to the "actually ready to get an ECM" stage.

Back to HW...
Nate

Why bother? By the time you get to the "actually need an ECM" stage, the internal combustion will be obsolete.

harsh..

quote Originally posted by 88 Silver Formula: harsh..

but true.

Internal combustion is already obsolete :P

C'mon guys, at least I'm making it flex-fuel compatible...C16 and Methanol

Ok Something to note here. I was just watching the 1988 IMSA race from San Antonio Tx and they had a piece about the Pontiac Spice Fiero's that were running the new 4 valve head(Cosworth) The teams had decided to go back to using the regular 2 valve heads because the Cosworth heads made the engine very Peaky and they had alot of relyability problems with them. So before you invest all that cash in all the other parts you may need to finish the head part you may want to do some further research on how good they were. I will try and rip that segment from the vid if I can and post it to YouTube. I am watich this thread closely because it is something I want to do as well. I have 1 Early SD-4 block(used), 1 early SD-4 iron head(used). 1 "433" aluminum head(new). 1 "801" head(new). One 2bbl intake (used and set up for FI). One 4bbl intake (new). And one Kinsler style 4 throat FI Intake(new). I have a custom Oil pan that came On my IMSA. Looks like a stock one with the sump part extended and places for the oil to drain down from the intake. I also have a Hamburger aluminum oil pan that is "HUGE". Only other real important things I have are two marine cranks.





Hope some of this helps.

Ok it's 4am and I am actually feeling kinda good and my head is clear which couldn't be said only a few hours ago. Here is the Youtube Video I promised regarding the IMSA Pontiac SuperDuty 4 cylinder. Hope some of you enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJJ3DHs5cs

Grasshopper,
A wise man knows that we are all idiots. He who thinks otherwise is also foolish.

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: Ok it's 4am and I am actually feeling kinda good and my head is clear which couldn't be said only a few hours ago. Here is the Youtube Video I promised regarding the IMSA Pontiac SuperDuty 4 cylinder. Hope some of you enjoy it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJJ3DHs5cs

Cool video, thank you! I'm going to try posting up some Engine Analyzer data later today.

quote Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: Cool video, thank you! I'm going to try posting up some Engine Analyzer data later today.

Right...ALL of my data/pics/everything is on my OLD hard drive...*sigh*

More work.

Okay, I just hooked up my old HD and am in the process of sorting through 140GB of crap, decided to throw some stuff up.

This data was generated using my camshaft specs, head flow numbers, valve train component weights, turbocharger size/efficiency, intercooler pressure drop, etc. for the 2v head. At 4000 RPM a 150HP shot of direct port nitrous is added. This is SAE corrected, 77*.



If anyone feels ambitious, here is the data dump from the simulation:

code:

---

Engine_RPM     3500    3750    4000    4250    4500    4750    5000    5250    5500    5750    6000    6250    6500    6750    7000    7250    7500    7750    8000    8250    
Brk_Tq         149     166     806     800     791     788     773     760     750     733     710     695     678     654     629     604     578     552     530     509     
Brake_HP       99.1    119     614     647     678     713     736     760     785     803     811     827     839     840     839     834     826     815     808     800     
Exh_Pres       1.2     1.6     15.6    16.4    17.1    18.1    18.9    19.7    20.6    21.5    22.1    22.9    24.4    25.3    25.4    25.9    26.4    26.5    27.3    27.2    
Boost          1.0     1.5     29.9    29.8    29.8    29.8    29.8    29.8    29.7    29.7    29.7    29.7    29.7    29.6    29.6    29.6    29.6    29.6    29.6    29.6    
Vol_Eff        85.4    93.9    326.0   331.1   333.7   336.0   336.7   336.6   334.2   331.6   327.2   324.5   320.2   313.5   306.0   298.8   290.1   282.1   274.7   267.3   
Actual_CFM     135     159     590     637     679     722     762     800     832     863     888     918     942     957     969     980     984     989     994     998     
Fuel_Flow      47.26   55.7    206     222     237     252     266     279     291     301     310     321     329     334     339     342     344     346     347     349     
Nitrous        0.00    0.00    482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     482     
Ntrs_Fuel      0.00    0.00    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    67.5    
BMEP           143     160     777     771     763     760     745     733     723     707     684     670     654     630     607     583     558     532     512     491     
A/F_Mxtr_Qlty  100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   100.0   
BSFC           0.477   0.470   0.446   0.448   0.450   0.449   0.453   0.456   0.456   0.459   0.466   0.469   0.473   0.479   0.484   0.491   0.498   0.507   0.514   0.520   
Thermal_Eff    32.71   32.92   31.08   30.97   30.90   31.02   30.77   30.63   30.72   30.57   30.21   30.07   29.96   29.69   29.47   29.15   28.89   28.52   28.30   28.08   
IMEP           167     184     803     798     790     788     775     764     755     740     718     705     690     668     645     622     598     574     554     535     
Frctn_Tq       24.17   25.29   26.40   27.51   28.62   29.74   30.85   31.96   33.07   34.19   35.30   36.41   37.53   38.64   39.76   40.87   41.99   43.11   44.23   45.35   
Frctn_HP       16.11   18.06   20.11   22.26   24.53   26.89   29.37   31.95   34.63   37.43   40.33   43.33   46.44   49.66   53.0    56.4    60.0    63.6    67.4    71.2    
FMEP           23.31   24.39   25.46   26.53   27.60   28.68   29.75   30.82   31.89   32.97   34.04   35.12   36.19   37.27   38.34   39.42   40.50   41.58   42.66   43.74   
Mech_Eff       86.0    86.8    96.8    96.7    96.5    96.4    96.2    96.0    95.8    95.5    95.3    95.0    94.8    94.4    94.1    93.7    93.2    92.8    92.3    91.8    
Motoring_HP    19.89   21.94   22.64   29.20   36.11   44.66   54.2    63.9    74.8    87.4    99.8    112     124     136     149     163     178     190     203     213     
Pumpng_Work    -3.78   -3.88   -2.53   -6.93   -11.58  -17.77  -24.80  -31.95  -40.16  -50.00  -59.5   -68.6   -77.6   -86.2   -95.7   -107    -118    -126    -135    -141    
Residual_Exh   6.4     4.4     1.6     1.6     1.5     1.5     1.5     1.6     1.8     1.9     2.0     2.2     2.4     2.7     2.9     3.3     3.5     3.6     3.9     4.2     
Shrt_Circuit   0.2     0.5     2.2     2.0     1.7     1.5     1.7     1.4     0.9     0.9     0.8     0.6     0.4     0.2     0.1     0.0     0.0     0.1     0.0     0.0     
Exh_Temp       1363    1419    1413    1429    1441    1467    1475    1486    1513    1535    1545    1557    1566    1571    1572    1596    1600    1605    1617    1628    
Mx_Cyl_Pres    797     871     3753    3756    3752    3751    3714    3691    3663    3613    3555    3504    3473    3381    3302    3224    3133    3034    2943    2870    
Mx_Cyl_Tmp     4555    4648    4526    4546    4551    4578    4585    4591    4603    4599    4606    4601    4621    4595    4611    4591    4599    4602    4589    4595    
In_Port_Tmp    93      90      20      21      23      24      25      25      25      24      25      24      25      26      26      28      31      34      39      43      
Piston_Spd     1808    1938    2067    2196    2325    2454    2583    2713    2842    2971    3100    3229    3358    3488    3617    3746    3875    4004    4133    4263    
Piston_Gs_@_TD 680     780     890     1000    1120    1250    1380    1530    1670    1830    1990    2160    2340    2520    2710    2910    3110    3320    3540    3770    
Coolant_HP     37.24   39.93   37.96   40.50   43.26   46.75   49.61   52.5    56.0    59.6    62.7    65.7    69.3    72.4    76.1    80.3    83.9    86.7    90.7    94.6    
Blow_By        0.9     1.0     3.9     3.9     3.9     3.9     3.9     3.8     3.8     3.8     3.7     3.7     3.6     3.6     3.5     3.4     3.3     3.2     3.1     3.1     
In_Tun_Pres    0.0     0.1     2.2     2.7     3.4     4.0     4.6     5.4     5.9     6.5     7.1     7.4     7.7     8.1     8.4     8.4     8.6     8.7     8.4     8.4     
Avg_In_Vel     125     134     143     151     160     169     178     187     196     205     214     223     232     240     249     258     267     276     285     294     
Avg_Ex_Vel     219     234     250     266     281     297     313     328     344     360     375     391     406     422     438     453     469     485     500     516     
Mach_#         0.208   0.223   0.238   0.253   0.268   0.282   0.297   0.312   0.327   0.342   0.356   0.372   0.386   0.401   0.415   0.429   0.442   0.456   0.467   0.479   
Act_In_FlowAre 95.0    95.0    95.1    95.1    95.1    95.1    95.1    95.1    95.1    95.2    95.2    95.1    95.1    95.3    95.4    95.5    95.9    96.2    96.8    97.4    
Act_Ex_FlowAre 94.5    94.4    92.9    92.8    92.8    92.7    92.7    92.6    92.5    92.6    92.6    92.4    92.4    92.6    92.6    92.6    93.1    93.2    93.2    93.3    
Valve_Toss     None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    None    Exh     None    Int     Int     
Knock_Index    0.4     0.4     1.2     1.2     1.2     1.2     1.2     1.1     1.2     1.1     1.1     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     1.0     
Spark_Advnc    20.6    20.1    11.4    11.8    12.2    12.6    12.9    13.3    13.7    14.0    14.4    14.7    15.0    15.4    15.7    16.1    16.4    16.6    17.0    17.3    
Injctr_Dty_Cyc 14.9    17.6    65.1    70.2    74.9    79.7    84.0    88.2    91.7    95.1    98.0    101.2   103.9   105.6   106.9   108.1   108.6   109.1   109.7   110.1   
Inj_Plse_Wdth  5.1     5.6     19.5    19.8    20.0    20.1    20.2    20.2    20.0    19.9    19.6    19.4    19.2    18.8    18.3    17.9    17.4    16.9    16.5    16.0    
Calc_Error     0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       0       1       1       0       
Compressor_Eff 39.3    38.6    74.5    73.6    71.9    70.1    68.1    66.2    64.4    62.6    61.1    59.1    56.0    53.7    52.3    51.2    50.0    49.5    48.5    48.7    
Cmprssr_Pres_R 1.07    1.10    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    3.06    
Compressor_HP  1.6     2.6     72.4    78.6    85.7    92.9    100.7   108.5   115.8   123.6   130.1   138.5   150.2   159.3   165.3   170.5   176.2   178.2   183.4   182.5   
Compressor_RPM 
Roots_Vol_Eff  
Turbo_Wastegt  0.0     0.0     5.3     8.1     8.8     8.8     9.0     10.0    10.0    10.0    9.3     9.1     7.0     5.6     4.4     3.2     1.9     2.1     1.6     2.3     
Turbo_Surge    0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     0.0     

---

As you can see there is a HUGE spike where the nitrous is activated and the turbo spools. I will likely have to launch above 4000RPM to keep from bogging, and blowing the tires off once it spools. In my opinion, the program over-estimated the capability of the turbo to support that much power, but I'm not sure.

I have also done some tests with the 4v head, and I think it shows HUGE promise. This is, however, with generic camshaft specs and approximations using port area for flow, and some other generalizations. Suffice it to say the chart looked much more suitable. I'm going to get some hard data on head flow and determine cam specs before I post that, though.

That is all for now...
Nate

holy nuts dude!! 811 BHP! did i misread sometihng?? whats that boil down to 700 to the wheels?
that comes out to roughly a 9.2 second 1/4 mile......if this is right you will be the first in fiero history to hit 9's (without being an nhra drag fiero)..DEFINATLY a first for a 4 banger!!

quote Originally posted by 88 Silver Formula: holy nuts dude!! 811 BHP! did i misread sometihng?? whats that boil down to 700 to the wheels? that comes out to roughly a 9.2 second 1/4 mile......if this is right you will be the first in fiero history to hit 9's (without being an nhra drag fiero)..DEFINATLY a first for a 4 banger!!

IIRC, when the Fiero was still hitting the drag strip professionally, some of them got into the 9's with the Super Duty.

quote Originally posted by 88 Silver Formula: holy nuts dude!! 811 BHP! did i misread sometihng?? whats that boil down to 700 to the wheels? that comes out to roughly a 9.2 second 1/4 mile......if this is right you will be the first in fiero history to hit 9's (without being an nhra drag fiero)..DEFINATLY a first for a 4 banger!!

Its still considered impossible to run a 10 with a mostly streetable fiero. Now I dont actually mean that, but no one has ever proven to run a 10 with any transverse "stock" style setup with any motor (even single turbo LT1 383's )

I hate to say it but, the computer isn't your car, I am not going to beleive 811BHP and low 9s until the car starts. Do you have any pics of whats going on right now? Not flaming or anything I just want to see this all happen.

oops..

------------------
PROJECT 1986 GT Stormbringer

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 10-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: I hate to say it but, the computer isn't your car, I am not going to beleive 811BHP and low 9s until the car starts. Do you have any pics of whats going on right now? Not flaming or anything I just want to see this all happen.

I'm not going to believe 800hp and low 9's until there's a dyno and timeslip.

What does a "stock" superduty put out? (is there such a thing?) 140hp? 200?

If you're running 30psi, 400-600 sounds about right. Good luck anyways.... If you get close to that you're going to upset some people.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I'm not going to believe 800hp and low 9's until there's a dyno and timeslip. What does a "stock" superduty put out? (is there such a thing?) 140hp? 200? If you're running 30psi, 400-600 sounds about right. Good luck anyways.... If you get close to that you're going to upset some people.

The very streetable Indy Fiero put out a 232hp with just a 2bbl carb or TBI depending on who you talk to. Have seen pics of both used at the time. I have heard of numbers from 375-520hp from a N/A race engine. HotRod mde a streetable Fiero with the Cosworth 4 valve DOHC head that put out like 375HP. FastIndyFiero says he is going to turbo his and use nitrous. That should really bump the hp. Will it be 800? Dunno. I was figuring that a turbo SD-4 with a 2valve OHV head could do 500. Guess we will see.

Assuming it flows in the same ballpark to what a dohc head can flow, 600 horsepower is not at all far off. The only problem i see is the fact you will need to run MORE than 30psi of boost.

I think an hx40 or hx55 holset would do this for you. They live at 30psi, and can even go higher without to much efficiency loss.