Yeah, I'm finally getting around to starting my build thread. Wit the completion of my short block closing in, I decided it's time to give PFF a good over-all view of where I'm going with this. Rather than one overwhelming first post, I'll be posting info and pics in easier to handle chunks.
The start was simple enough, a FS advertisement two and a half years ago in the classifieds of the Wichita newspaper. At the time, I couldn't tell you what a Fiero looked like, but it's name popped out in my head for one reason or another. I went to look at it, and, (much like it is now) it was in rough shape. The interior wasn't in great shape (still isn't), the seats are torn badly in places.
The engine? Well, it didn't even look this good:
That intake is how I came to be involved with the Super Duty 4 cyl. Research trying to find out where it came from led in to more study about the entire Super Duty program.
About one year ago, I discovered that the head on the modified Iron Duke posted above was cracked. I then planned to replace it with either a new SD4 head, or swap in a 3.9, Northstar, or 3800SC. In about November I also discovered that my block was bad, so the engine came out for the last time, last looking like this:
Might want to find a different host for the pictures. ------------------ 4.9 Caddy in Garage! Car in Driveway! ACK! HURRICANE!!! SEND RUBBER RAFTS!!!!! **************************************** http://home.cfl.rr.com/fierose Central Florida Fieros http://www.centralfloridafieros.org
[This message has been edited by Kento (edited 09-29-2004).]
Okay, before I go into the details of my SD build I'll point out a couple pictures of weak areas on the stock Iron Duke, for those curious. I personally have no love for the Iron Duke, but the Super Duty is a different case.
First off, the block itself: It has thin main bulkheads, at about .3-.4" in most places.
It has thin block walls also:
That's a reading of about .290". For a main wall on a block? Yuck.
And that thing GM called a crank? Well, I don't have much to say about it other than it's a POS.
Rods? Erm, no thanks, I'll take my chances with some SBC rods.
If I had a picture of my old ported head I would point out that it had like a .25" crack in it. I would also point out that it isn't good from a performance standpoint. You say, "Nate, why all the negativity about the Duke?". Bottom line, it's not a performance engine, or really even upgradable to any kind of acceptable performance.
Anyway, moving on, past the Iron Duke:
That's the starting point for everything to come, a Pontiac Super Duty block. Obviously, it's not so hard to tell if you have one. If you're not sure, you probably don't, beings as how they never came off of the production line in any vehicle.
As you can see, everything that bears a load is reinforced with extra thickness. There are even two extra bearing journals for the camshaft. Installed are Torrington roller needle bearings.
Lookin at your main Caps, I was wondering.. arnt these engines pretty much a 307 with half the cylinders lopped off.. or something like that.. I was wondering can you get some SBC splayed Caps installed.. would add even more reliability.. since I know your Turboing... the more solid the bottom end the better right?
could you measure what you measured on the iron duke as on the super duty
Yes, that same block wall measurement was around .60". Consequently, the SD block is heavier, but well worth the added weight. On the main bulkheads you will find thicknesses of around .75". It is very beefy.
I actually have looked for 4-bolt main caps somewhat for this motor. These stock SD4 caps are very strong ductile iron, and when I talked to Kansas Racing Products about them they said that there haven't been any problems with them.
Now THAT'S what a crank is supposed to look like. I'm upping the stroke a bit from 3.00" to 3.100" inches. With the larger 64cc head volume, I'll still be right at 8.3:1 compression, perfect for a turbo.
now that's a thing of beauty, something I usually don't say referring to 4 cylinder's lol. I'm gonna be adding this one to my fav's, I've always been curious as to how a sd4 sounded, maybe i'll make it down to wichita one of these days and check it out.
Very nice, keep it up. A couple questions for you:
Where are you getting the Super Duty parts? Is this new stuff from KRP, or genuine GM SD stuff that you've come up with somewhere?
What's your bore size going to be?
The crankshaft and connecting rods are from KRP. They often have SCAT make billet cranks for them. The crank that I got is used, but still in very, very good condition. I managed to pick it up for pennies, relatively, as the race teams were all alowed to upgrade to a larger stroke than this one. One downside: the crank has a SBC output bolt pattern. I'm probably going to put an aluminum spacer in between the engine and tranny, and have a custom flywheel made.
The block and head I just basically scrounged the country for. I'm going to try to get some better pictures of the rods before it gets assembled, but everything is it the shop now. Here's a cruddy webcam pic:
They are forged I-beam rods with 7/16" ARP hardware, rated to about 10,000 RPM. They cost over $100 a piece new from KRP. It's a pretty good upgrade.
A quick upgrade for the brakes. I would've done the 12" Corvette brakes, but the only thing limiting me there was my wheels, 15-inchers. And I like my wheels.
Sadly enough, I don't have time or $$$ to take the rest of the suspension off and give it a good rebuild. If I did though, I think I could turn it into some kind of crazy autoX machine. Revving to 9000 RPM at 16 lbs of boost with a short first gear could be VERY interesting. I think I smell rubber...
I'm planning to gain 100 lbs at most over stock 2.5. I also have no plans to remount the A/C compressor on the SD4. I would like to keep the weight lower, but hell, my turbo weighs 30lbs by itself. Hmm, 30lbs minus 20lbs of boost. It won't be too much slower with it on there.
Running 20lbs of boost, how much power to do look to make? I just saw the two bolt mains...how do you think they will hold up? --Bryson
I'm hoping that they will hold up well, lol. They are high-quality ductile iron held on by Moroso 1/2" bolts. But, I'm going to talk to KRP again and maybe try to find some 4 bolt splayed caps.
I designed a set in CAD, lol: Does that count?
I hope for 450-475 HP at 20 lbs of boost and 8000 RPM. If it gets there, yay! If I only make it to 400hp, I won't cry.
Here its something to think about if you want to use a 2 bolt mains block with lots of boost and to produce the kind of HP you are talking about, this is a picture of a 2 bolt mains block V8 engine to show you what can be done to achieve what you want:
this picture was borrowed from the Badd-A$$ racing engines company, and this is the text that follows this picture:
2 bolt main blocks can be used for racing engines when one of our main supports are installed. You can see how it ties all of the main caps together and turns an ordinary 2 bolt main lower-end into something many times stronger than a standard 4 bolt main. These are a must for small block Fords and 2 bolt main Chevy's when using high compression, blowers and/or nitrous oxide. Our billet main supports are only available ON our engines. We do not sell them outright.
P.S. I hope this info can be helpful for you to get an idea of what can be done to make it stronger than already is right now.
Finally the build thread, with my favorite engine! Keep it up! If you find a cheap source of SD4 parts, let me know For now I'd be happy with the SD head and holley intake and TBI on my stock duke; until I can afford to get the block, crank, and other parts.
20lbs. of boost on a 2.3 liter ford is goood for about 220 hp on a stock engine, on a fully prepped engine maybe 300 to 320 hp
You are an absolute idiot. You do realize those turbo engines from the factory were rated at 190 hp from the factory(pending on model) with max boost being around 11 psi set from the factory. A boost controller, a intake DP and exh on those ford 2.3 motors would put them well over 300 hp with 20 psi. However the small t3 that is on there doesnt' do too well at 20 psi. Might as well swap to a larger turbo by that time.
I think Indiyfieros biggest prob is getting it tuned right with a carb setup. But tehn again I think he is running some sort of EFI setup. And the carb is just to let air by through with the injectors in the intake mani. I might be wrong though.
hey Mr Punisher - who you calling an idiot? you know me about as well as you know ford 2.3 turbo motors - do you know who Joe Morgan is? Here is a Link to his 400HP 2.3 turbo http://www.turboford.org/faq/joe.shtml if you can read you will notice he is running 17 psi of boost with a 90 HP shot of nitrous to achieve that 400 HP. And at this link http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Dyno_results/dyno_shootout14.html ther are several dyno sheets from 2.3 turbos running 20+ psi of boost and none of them making 400 HP. As far as ford 2.3 turbo motors having only 11psi of boost I suggest you read up on them a little more. My totally stock 88 turbo coupe motor would hit 14-15 psi of boost and it was making about 200 flywheel horsepower. Turning up the boost to 18 psi took about 2 tenths off my quarter mile time. I don't think turning it up to 20 would have gotten me 400 hp.
My totally stock 88 turbo coupe motor would hit 14-15 psi of boost and it was making about 200 flywheel horsepower. Turning up the boost to 18 psi took about 2 tenths off my quarter mile time. I don't think turning it up to 20 would have gotten me 400 hp.
Like I said some had 190 hp crank from the factory. Turning up the boost 5 psi will yeild more then 30 hp. I also stated intake DP and exh as mods as well. 20 psi is too much boost on that tiny T3 which is why I said its better to just go bigger at that point
And I never stated anywhere anything about 400 hp. Which tells me you can't read. Which furthers my argument about you being an idiot. See those of us that aren't idiots can read and you prove nicely that you can't.
Thread hijack. Thats it for me here. Back on topic.
For those who doubt, that's why I think I can hit at least 400 HP. This is not a production motor. It is not meant for a production car. It is a race motor being put into a street car. I am making absolutely NO comprises as far as how I am building this. I also understand that you can't just dump enough money into something and think it'll work if it's not made right to begin with. This is not a 2.3l Ford. This is a 2.6L Super Duty. Remember the DOHC Cosworth Super Duties? Those were naturally aspirated engines cranking out almost 500hp.
Diamond Racing forged pistons (not pictured are plasma-moly rings), KRP forged 6.0" rods.
Garrett GT35 turbo. On right is my old T3/T4.
I will be using EFI, tuned port style, with an injector per cylinder. I will also use an LS1 throttle body. I had sitting an LT1 TB, but I don't think it's gonna cut it.
Originally posted by jsmorter1: Turning up the boost to 18 psi took about 2 tenths off my quarter mile time. I don't think turning it up to 20 would have gotten me 400 hp.
18 psi on a T3? That's not a great way to make power...
What was your compressor outlet temp? 350 degrees? Get a T3/T4. You'll run way faster on the same boost.
------------------ Turn the key and feel the engine shake the whole car with its lope; Plant the gas pedal and feel in your chest neither a shriek nor a wail but a bellowing roar; Lift and be pushed into the harness by compression braking that only comes from the biggest cylinders while listening to music of pops and gurgles. Know that you are driving and American V8. There are finer engines made, but none of them are this cool.
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
The 87 - 88 turbo coupes did not have the t3, they had IHI turbos which were good for about 18lbs of boost, they were also intercooled which did bring the temps down. On a ported and polished motor with a 3 inch downpipe they were capable of about 280 hp which is coincidently about what the stock injectors were good for. I had this in an 85 coupe that weighed 2640. With a 3.55 rear gear and a T5 tranny it was good for 14.3 to 14.5 quarter mile times at dragway 42. unfortunately they call them rustangs for a good reason so I now have an 88 fiero for a toy and traded the rustang for a pearl white paint job on the fiero. Eventually it will have a boosted ecotec after the suspension and other things are taken care of.
A GT35 should put your at 400+ to the wheels easily. Especially with a little larger displacement (2.6L), it should be plenty streetable. What is the stroke and redline of that engine? I'm just tyring to get an idea of piston speeds in your engine. Also, the GT35 will stay efficient way up to over 30psi, if you ever want to make one beautiful dyno run. What ECU are you planning on using? That looks like it's gonna be one hell of a motor. Are you makign your own header? Best of luck on your project! --Bryson
Stroke is 3.100". The limiting factor on the redline are the piston rings. At 10,000 RPM it'll be around 86 fps. I think I'll limit it to 9000, that'll be around where the rings will probably start to flutter. I know of other drag racers using the SCAT crank running higher strokes and regularly hitting 12000rpm. Apparently the SCAT SD cranks have yet to suffer a failure from anything except for oil loss.
I'll design my own equal length turbo header, yes, but I'm not going to trust myself to weld it, lol. I'll be using a homebrew MegaSquirt ECU.
Powerlevels and PSI vary from turbo to turbo. SO turbo A could make 300 horse@15psi and turbo B could make 500 horse@15psi on the same motor.
The turbo he has is plenty capable of making 400 horse. It will just make it in the neighborhood of 6k rpm.
quote
Originally posted by jsmorter1:
hey Mr Punisher - who you calling an idiot? you know me about as well as you know ford 2.3 turbo motors - do you know who Joe Morgan is? Here is a Link to his 400HP 2.3 turbo http://www.turboford.org/faq/joe.shtml if you can read you will notice he is running 17 psi of boost with a 90 HP shot of nitrous to achieve that 400 HP. And at this link http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Dyno_results/dyno_shootout14.html ther are several dyno sheets from 2.3 turbos running 20+ psi of boost and none of them making 400 HP. As far as ford 2.3 turbo motors having only 11psi of boost I suggest you read up on them a little more. My totally stock 88 turbo coupe motor would hit 14-15 psi of boost and it was making about 200 flywheel horsepower. Turning up the boost to 18 psi took about 2 tenths off my quarter mile time. I don't think turning it up to 20 would have gotten me 400 hp.
Smiling "wasn't cool" that day.
