Awesome build thread man. Just makes me realize how much work I still have to look forward to on my N* swap. It will be a miracle if I finish this year.
Thanks for including so much detail, and your brake booster hose on the egr port is brilliant. I will be doing the same thing now that I've seen it, nice and clean looking.
Well....... I went backwards yesterday. As is always the case whenever a show is the following weekend, everything went wrong. My SBC car developed the standard "corner of the intake manifold oil leak", and I don't mean a little one. I thought I had a temporary fix and have the car all cleaned up and shiny. even installed some bling bling ( see https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/053418.html ) but when I went for a 10 mile test drive the leak is back so the manifold has to come off . I thought the Northstar was pretty close to being ready for a trial fit also. I was checking to see that all the nuts and bolts were tight and doing a final check of the wiring, but when I hit the starter it turned over a 1/4 turn and stopped dead. I pulled the manifold thinking it was a starter problem but discovered instead that the edge of the clutch is hitting inside the trans case. not by much.... but just a little is way too much in this case. A ton of extra work is needed just to grind off a small amount of metal, but it's gota be done. #$@*&....... I'll have a Bud please.... and keep em coming.
Originally posted by Russ544: CHRF supplied the clutch, pressure plate and custom flywheel. they all look great. the disk is a dual friction style with Kevlar pucks on one side and full organic on the other.
quote
Originally posted by Will: I guess this worked OK for you? AIUI, the T5, which they are accustomed to serving, has a different spline than the 282...
I guess the profile of the pressure plates is different from longi to transverse apps...
Oh yeah, let us know how that Centerfarce turns out. Mine's plenty streetable, but kinda marginal with the Northstar.
Bite 'jur toung there sonny. that ain't no stinkin Centerfarce. Actually I have no experience with this clutch at all but Alan of CHRF says they use them on some pretty high horsepower sand rails with good results and I've been rather unimpressed with both the Centerforce and Spec units that I've used so I'll give this setup a try. It's a Mccloud 9 11/16" unit with a dual friction material (organic/kevlar puck) sprung disk. The interference was really minor but needed to be addressed. about 1/16" needs to come off the bellhousing near the throwout fork, over an area of ~ 3/4" x 1/4". also keep in mind that I'm usinfg the Isuzu trans which was intended for a pretty small presure plate.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 07-25-2005).]
Hey Russ! I have a friend that is giving me an 88 JIMMY with a 4.3 in it. Is that a good year to use? He offered me the whole vehicle for a trade of my digital camera (worth $500.00), and the vehicle runs fine.
Hey Russ! I have a friend that is giving me an 88 JIMMY with a 4.3 in it. Is that a good year to use? He offered me the whole vehicle for a trade of my digital camera (worth $500.00), and the vehicle runs fine.
sure that should be fine, but then again you could most likely get a decent 88 4.3 from a wreak for less money. you'll still need an 85 - 86 4.3 HEI dist., and a decent manifold (Edelbrock makes em).
Russ (on temporary life support from a clunky WIN 98' box wile my real one gets repaired) Camp
I take it you are refering to the intake manifold in your post above. If the engine is fuel injection, do you suggest getting the intake and switching to carb to make it easier? From what I have been reading it seems easier to do the wiring also if you have a carb.
[This message has been edited by Jolcon (edited 07-29-2005).]
I take it you are refering to the intake manifold in your post above. If the engine is fuel injection, do you suggest getting the intake and switching to carb to make it easier? From what I have been reading it seems easier to do the wiring also if you have a carb.
I guess you coud use the TBI if you wanted to, but yes, a carb makes wireing much easier and I really haven't seen where the tbi is actually any better than carb in this case anyway.
Just a quick update. Between the 100*+ temps here lately, and my major computer woes (I'm still on life support with this old win98 box) I haven't gotten much done on the car. I still can't download any pics until I get my "real" computer back next week, but today I'm dropping the 4.3 and preparing for the first test fit of the N*.
Jolcon. how much were you budgeting for your 4.3 swap? With all the projects I have lined up here I may not ever get around to putting the 4.3 back in my Formula as planned so I may concider selling it as a package deal. on the 88 cradel, with trans, etc. everything needed right down to the hose clamps and wireing. I'll come up with a price if you're seriously interested in this option. I guarantee it would be ~ 1/4th the price of having it done for you or 1/2 of building it yourself and this way it could be in and running in a day.
Thanks Philphine. we all need motivation now and then
Too bad I don't have my "real" computer back yet to be able to share some pics... but trust me..... the Northstar is a beautiful thing sittin' in there . the first test fit is going very well. 1/2" seems to be the magic number as virtually every critical point between engine and engine bay came up with that amount of clearance somehow. Even the shock tower will not require the usual modifications. I'll be using my stock springs and shocks on this 88 N* . Maybe the Isuzu trans is a tad bit shorter from engine face to axle bearing? The only clearance alteration of any kind will be a small dimple to give a little more wiggle room at the upper valve cover bolt. it misses the shock tower by ~ 1/16" right now. Today I'm marking areas in the engine bay where I want heater hoses, fuel lines, PB vac line and wiring loom to terminate for a clean installation. I had been unsure how I was going to set up a dogbone but now that the engine is sitting in there I see a nice solution. I'll be cutting off the left side and top of the old dogbone mount and then the old right side will become the new left side of a mount bracket, along with a new flange for the right side. a fabbed dogbone will then connect to a "bridge" which will attached to existing tabs on the ends of each head. Actually I'm surprised at how accessible things are on this swap. Wile there isn't any spare room anymore, the things that need access have access.
sounds very good Russ. I went through a lot of trouble to keep the engine/trans in the stock location but it sounds like you got around that in good shape.
sounds very good Russ. I went through a lot of trouble to keep the engine/trans in the stock location but it sounds like you got around that in good shape.
It must be an Isuzu thing, as I don't recall ever hearing of a N* in an 88 that didn't require cutting the strut tower and using coilovers. I was looking at the 4.3 sitting on the cradel, which also has an Isuzu btw, and it's only about 1/4" further to the right than I mounted the N*. I had moved the 4.3 over to the left by the Archie method of elongating the mount holes, which means ~ 1/2 - 3/4" I guess. I found a radiator "overflow tank" in the housewares section of Freddys today so I'll do a little plumbing this afternoon
I'm so agravated at the folks who are "upgrading" my home computer. it's been one excuse after another for 3+ weeks now. I've had them build several systems for me over the years, and many upgrades, but it's always the same ol' crap with delays and feet dragging. Apparently genius and ineptitude go hand in hand.................... So maybe I'll have photos sometime this coming week. I've taken a number of photos, and find each one worth a thousand words, but without a way to download them the verbal recap is that the N* is in it's permanent home now. Since my last installment I've installed all the fuel lines, heater hoses, radiator lines, including the surge tank and overflow bottle, power brake vac line, evap canister and related hoses, throttle cable and bracket. The oil cooler is installed with it's new ductwork to the IMSA side vent and it's lines fabricated and installed. The fuel tank came down and the LT-1 pump was installed. All the engine electrical inside the engine bay is finished, which included re-locating both of the wire harness pass-throughs in the bulkhead. I've always thought those things looked ugly in their stock location so they were both lowered out of eyesight. the clutch linkage is all back together and seems to be functioning perfectly. in fact I didn't even have to re-bleed the system as I left the slave attached when the 6 came out. The shift linkage also works great with the new bellcranks and so forth. no binding of the cables from the new routing etc..... I'm happy !! Today I spent the entire day fabricating a new dogbone and brackets. sometimes i just get engrossed in a part as if it was the whole project. usually when that happens a piece of art develops so i don't fight the urge and this time was no exception..... but you'll have to wait for the pics to judge that for yourselves. Next weekend should see the suspension/brakes reassembled and then the computer gets mounted and tested, and software installed. the possibility exists to turn the key by the end of next weekend
Thanks.. The closest point is the end valve cover bolt which ended up about 1/4" away. I did cut a hole about 1" x 2" in the tower to provide some wiggle room for that area. I bonded some reinforced rubber material onto the inside of the tower to cover the hole so you don't really even notice it's there.
I had a lot of business errands to take care of today so I didn't get to work on the car as much as I wanted to. regardless, I did get most of the suspension reassembled with the exception of the brakes. I got the ecm mounted (in more-or-less the stock location) and did a lot of testing of the electrical circuts at the ecm plug faces. B+ where it should be, "key on" power at the correct terminal, good grounds, fan and fuel pump work from the ecm, etc. I have my laptop charging and the car battery being topped off as well, so tomorrow I can test for actual fuel pressure, put water in the rad, plug in the ecm and.................. everybody cross their fingers at about 10:00 AM and we'll see what happens. It's time for the moment of truth.
Russ
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-03-2005).]
Talk about being nervous as a new papa. After checking and triple checking everything this morning for the fourth time I realized I couldn't postpone any longer and needed to just grab myself by the bootstraps and DO IT. It took a bit to build fuel pressure, then there was a faint "puff".... and a pop out the TB. another crank or two and it gradually came to life. It sounded a bit rough at first. even made me a little nervous for a moment, but not being run for who knows how many years had no doubt allowed the lifters to bleed down a bit..... and a few spiders most likely found their God today as well, but gradually it smoothed out and found it's gate. I only ran it for 1 or 2 minutes as the header paint was obviously being heat cured pretty well , and I wanted to check for any leaks needing attention so I shut her down. everything looks great however. no drips no errors. About the only thing I see that will need investigation is the oil pressure gauge which goes full scale when the key is turned on. I must have missed a wire on that one, but overall I'm thrilled with the birth. free cigars for everyone !!
Now I want to make a couple small changes in the engine bay so I'll have room for an air cleaner box, which I'll fabricate, to hook up to the cold air intake. I'll need to relocate the surge tank and the evap canister to do that but heck, what else do I have to do today.
about the oil pressure sender. are you using the one that came with it? I know that the one on the Aurora is a two part switch, one part lets the fuel pump run and it is either on or off. the other two pins are for a gauge and the resistance changes with oil pressure changes. I was under the impression that the oil pressure sender on the caddy (the one on the oil filter adaptor) was either on or off. I am not sure how they got the pressure reading... ? you may end up using an Aurora version.
I'm using the stock 88 Fiero unit that was on the car before (and worked fine) so it must be a wireing issue that I overlooked. The Fiero unit works like the aurora unit you discribe, and I thought I had it wired to function the same way to back up the fuel pump circut, but somehow my plan apparantly went astray . I gota say.... this Holly system is amazing in the tunability it allows. it's really a trip to watch the various parameters in real time and alter various fuel and timing to dial it in. I think my carb and distributor days really are over. tomorrow we go for a short test drive BTW: this is the first Northstar I've ever heard run and I'm here to tell ya these babys sound wicked mean and nasty. can't wait to drive the beast.
If I don't get my home computer back Monday or tues I'm buying a new one. I could use a new one for a backup anyway, and I've got some pics to share.
Russ
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-03-2005).]
Let's give backup computer #2 a shot and see if pics actually show up
As I mentioned the other day I spent a full day building a new dogbone system for this project....... and I think it came out pretty well. I started with a 4 cyl dogbone that was cut in half and shaped to slide inside, and be bolted to, a new arm fabricated from 1" square stock. The front end pivots on 3/4" nylon bushings pressed in to the bone and ride on a machined pin which gets bolted into the bridge mount.
The Fiero dogbone mount was modified by using the old right side as the new left side in order to place the new bone further to the right as far as possible.
To attach it to the engine another bit of fabrication took shape by building a bridge between existing bolt holes on the end of each cyl head.
and after a bit of my new favorite spray paint (made by Duplicolor for aluminum wheel refinishing ) it lookes like this:
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-04-2005).]
those pics went ok so here are a couple more to catch up with:
The oil cooler got it's ductwork to the side vent and the C-500 moved ..................
The wireing pass-throughs got relocated and fuel lines rearranged. the old fuel filter is still hanging in this photo but a new one replaces it in this same location even though the fuel lines are headed the other dirrection now. it was just easier to leave it here and run the hoses to it. also note the power brake vac line extention:
I love wire. we all need lots more wire in our lives
As usual -- impressive work!! Seeing stuff like this makes me want to build up another car
Thanks ! I can relate to your wanting to build a car again. I took almost 10 years off from building cars and felt that my hot rod days were behind me.......... then ~4 years ago I happened to see (my first) a Fiero for sale and the rest is history. I guess once it's in your blood you can never really quit.
I was wondering if you are using a narrow-band O2 sensor or a wide-band? I read through this thread but missed the info if it was already mentioned...
Narrow band. I asked Alan to set it up as idiot proof as possible for me.... and it ran on the first attempt so it must be . I just crawled out from under the car after re-installing the fuel tank for the second time. The hose clamp on the line between the fuel pump and hard-line didn't get tightened I guess, as it started leaking which dropped the fuel presure to ~10 lb . to add insult to injury, before I realised what had happened I pulled the presure regulator to check the screen and dropped the o-ring spacer down the gap under the manifold. I'm not having a good day .
Who was it that posted an improved base map for the Holley that they had worked out for the N* ??? with my home computer woos I've lost the info. Thanks Russ
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-05-2005).]
the gas tanks are a bit of a pita... I always seem to get to many vapors and have a duzzy of a headache the next day.
I can't remember right off hand who had a good base map for the holley/N*. I bought the narrow band system from Allen but then purchased a WBO2 wideband setup from techedge because I did not want to be guessing about the mixture. the downside is that the sensor I selected to use may not work with ceramic coated exhaust manifolds. It seems to have a history of failure due to high heat. but the narrow band sensor will be in the other bung to use as a back up.
as for the o-ring, it sounds like it might be time for a beer... I hope things go better soon.
Looking great as usual Russ! Can hardly wait for you to get it on the road and hear the report of performance. I know you have to be more anxious than anybody though. Somehow I just know that it will more than match the good looks of the car.
That dog bone is a work of art!
Hope you get your computer woes straightened out soon, very little on a car can be as frustrating as problems with the "productivity tool".
Thanks cptsnoopy. by the time I left the shop today I at least got back to where I started off yesterday . got my screwups resolved and I'm back running again and ready to begin the fine tuning. It was a long journey however.
I'm a little confused on your project however. I thought you were having problems with the valve guides or?? and had been unable to get yours running yet....... or were you refering to another car that you used the wb O-2 sensor on?
Looking great as usual Russ! Can hardly wait for you to get it on the road and hear the report of performance. I know you have to be more anxious than anybody though. Somehow I just know that it will more than match the good looks of the car.
HAGO!
Well hello there Ted. long time no see. I was wondering where you'd been or if you were having more back problems or just working long hours (or knowing you both ) . Ya the car is finally getting the performance that the bodywork deserves. I haven't driven it yet as it wasn't running as good as I wanted it to in order to do that but the exhaust note when you blip the throttle is incredable. it's quite obvious that this thing is gona be one sick ride when the loud pedal goes down I may have found a car to actually improve on the sbc car in the fun factor departmant.
Yep, I'm still here, just don't post much, I always seem to say the wrong thing to the wrong people at the wrong time! No matter how many hours I put in, it never seems to be enough. The back is semi-stable, but there is permanant nerve damage that affects the right leg and foot, but you know, some things you just learn to live with.
I've followed your progress from the beginning, and needless to say, am always impressed with your work.
Have also been following gusshotrods build thread too, I'd like to see what you guys could turn out with a combined effort.
I know it is going to meet or exceed your expectations, if for no other reason, cause YOU put it together.
Thanks for sharing your progress, and as I said earlier, I'm looking forward to seeing it on the road with a mile wide grin on the drivers face.
HAGO!
[This message has been edited by Sage (edited 09-06-2005).]
Sage. I keep thinking I should go check out Gus' work for myself. he's about 150 miles north of me. he sems to do ok without my help however ha ha.
cptsnoopy. FOUND IT. I knew I'd seen improved N* Holley maps somewhere. the thing I'd forgotten was that it was on (pssst, keep it quiet) another forum. good for some light reading when you get a spare week or so. PS start on page 12 for the new maps.
I had not looked at aaron88's thread in quite some time. It has gone on and on...
that looks like some good info. I don't know if I can use it on the Aurora or not but I can compare.
I am pretty sure my engine has a problem on number 8 cylinder but I am not sure what it is. I am going to run it as is for awhile to see how bad the problem is. Since I have not finished the project I have not used the WBO2 wide band sensor yet. I bought it DIY and put it together after reading Ryan's WBO2 thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20050410-1-046503.html. It cost about $220 for the kit and the sensor if I remember right. It seemed like the one that Allen sold with the Holley was much more. I think Ryan has had pretty good luck with his. I also believe that he is using the stock exhaust manifolds. Shoot me a PM If your interested in borrowing it, it will be several more months before I get a chance to try it out on the 88 Fiero.
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