bump for the pioneer eco thread. 2.4s- do they have the high-speed internals that the 2.0 motors do? (forged pistons, rods, SS crank) confirmation that 2.4s truly do have drive by wire and direct injection?
edit: Page 8 is mine. ------------------ 1984 Fiero SE, White, first love, sold... 1986 Fiero SE 2M6, gold 1988 Fiero 2M4, the Fox 1987 Fiero GT, Blue, 3.4/4T40 Still looking for that perfect CJB 88 GT...
[This message has been edited by fierodeletre (edited 11-06-2007).]
the only direct injected eco appears to be the 2.0 turbo motor .i looked at a bunch of roadtests and all the GM info i could find and nothing was mentioned about DI on a 2.4 V V T .they have a nodular iron crank with steel rods(not powdered metal like the 2.2) and all the new motors have drive by wire . i have been merrily driving along with my turbo setup and no problems all summer and fall when the car started running rough ,like only three cylinders were firing .i tried to get new plugs from canadian tire but though they had them listed ,none were in stock .original delcos from the chevy dealer cost 76 bucks with tax and fixed the problem .the CTCplugs would have been 45.00 all in .the old plugs look good , but i dont know how many miles are on them .i think the water meth injection might be a little hard on platinum plugs .
the problem seems to be temperature related .i put the new plugs in , and everything seemed to be fine.but then it turned cold out and a plug fouled again .with the bigger injectors and no way to tune them at non boost levels ,the car runs way rich at low speeds .i can clear the fouled plugs by getting the boost up but its really annoying to have to rev along in a lower gear when you are in traffic .for some reason , this problem doesnt happen on plus 70* F days . so i have decided to buy the HP tuners pro tuning setup .the car is on its dollys for the winter now that snow is here and with the CDN dollar so high it was a good time to buy . i have done a lot of research and one of the many things i can tune is my injector constant, this will reduce the amount of fuel at startup and non boosted conditions .the power enrichment table will get the extra fuel i need under boost conditions .HPT pro versions accept inputs from wide bands so i can get the AFR where it should be .i can correct my speedo error and raise the rev limiter and the speed governor .and lots of other things that a way beyond me at this time . it comes with a code scanner too for better trouble shooting .there will be access to the knock sensor so i can see what is going on there as well . i should have bought this setup when i boosted the motor but i wanted to get a good understanding of the car boosted with only minor mods .with just the bigger injectors , and water meth injection ,it ran really well most of the time .this car is my daily driver from april to snow fall time and i have now put about 17000 km on since the swap . to prepare for HPT ,i had to take apart my centre consul and dig out the OBD2 connector .i hope this is the one:
so your whole motor is toast? or are you able to rebuild it? i heard from the ecotec forum that the newer 2.2's have weaker pistons than the older ones .with your motor not being boosted , i didnt think you would have that kind of a problem .good to hear from you again .
so your whole motor is toast? or are you able to rebuild it? i heard from the ecotec forum that the newer 2.2's have weaker pistons than the older ones .with your motor not being boosted , i didnt think you would have that kind of a problem .good to hear from you again .
Yeah I havent been on much lately school is keeping me busy.
Yes I was having tuning issues, Ive contacted numerous people for megasquirt files to compare to mine to see if it was a tuning issue but no one ever responded . I always had a misfire/detenation issue at 6k+ range. It may of been a bad motor before I got it. But I know I blew 3 ringlands, compression was still over 205psi on blown ringlands, the 4th happend on #2 cylinder a second time and I pulled parts of the piston up with a magnet. The sleeves,rods and crank are good on the motor but for the price to rebuild it I can get another low mileage motor and have extra parts still
On ecotecforum.com i have a few threads about the issue before it blew finally, but I think it had to do with pulling 110% duty cycles with my injectors and a few other variables in that area.
Im glad to see yours is going well, and you gotta make a trip down in 08, i wanna see yours
i got my HP tuners software and hardware the other day .i am very impressed with the product . i have only made one change to my tune so far because i am taking the time to learn everything about the software before making changes .the first thing i did was read my cars vcm (i bought the mpvi pro version ) and this is what came up: look at that . i own a 2004 cavalier ! not .anyway , the software gathered all the info itsef .i was worried i would have to go through my old receipts to dig up the vin for the donor car . the only tuning i have done so far is to change the injector constant , this will end my plug fouling and hot start flooding that was caused by the larger injectors .
i have been doing some scanning with my hp tuners hooked up to the car and changing the injector constant made an improvement but did not solve all my problems .the scan showed that when the car started to run rough , the o2 sensor graph turned into a bunch of spikes .i did some digging and found that oil has been getting past the turbo seals and clogging up the o2 sensor with black soot .turns out my expensive gear drive pump doesnt draw enough vacuum to stop the oil from backing up in the turbo .so i have decided to re route a few things to solve the problem for good .i dont want to go back to the shurflo pump because i cant see a diaphram pump pushing hot oil for very long without a failure . so i am going to remote mount the turbo under what is left of my trunk ,allowing the oil return from the turbo to point straight down into the evac pump .i have removed my old exhaust and the turbo and the old cavvy manifold .i was hoping to find a ready made turbo manifold but i measured and i dont have enough clearance and i am not going to sacrifice more trunk space .i have a line on a solstice exhaust manifold for 50.00 plus shipping .it points down instead of out like the cavvy manifold so it will be easier to get the cat in before the turbo and have all the room under the trunk for the turbo ,muffler and piping . i made this adapter bracket to feed the exhaust in to the turbo : this is the old manifold .it looks like the EGR is plumbed right into the cylinder head somehow .there are a lot of extra passages that send gasses back into the head .hopefully the solstice manifold has the same passages . i hope to have the new set up done in a couple of weeks if i can gather all the parts i need .i am going to re route the charge pipes as well to clean up the engine compartment.
the axle and the water pipe are the two things i am worried about .i hope to drive down and look at the parts before i buy but if i cant throwing away 75 dollars on parts i cant use isnt too bad .archie posted a pic of the 2.4 with the manifold on and it looked like it would work but i cant find the post anymore .
i have got the turbo sitting in what i hope will be its final location .i am going to get the solstice manifold on wednseday.while i am in the cleveland area ,i hope to get over to summit racing to get some pre bent exhaust tubing to fab up the plumbing .and hopefully pick up a better fitting for the turbo feed .it is 60 * fahrenheiht outside and my garage is one big mass of dripping condensation as the warm air hits the ice cold concrete floor .this usually only happens for a few days in the spring , not in the middle of winter .
Hey WFTB, things are looking nice man! I'm constantly impressed with your swap, and how much progress you've made compared to my Ecotec installation.
Remember awhile back we were discussing the angle of the Ecotec, and where the oil pickup was located in the pan, and the potential for oil starvation? I got some pics of my pan when I pulled it off the other day. The pickup is mostly centered, but it is slightly closer to the back of the pan, on the drain plug side.
This still boggles my mind as to why they would tilt the motor forward when the pickup is closer to the back, but oh well, at least we now know that whether it's level like mine, or tilted forward like from the factory, there is no G-force induced oil starvation issues.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class AIMD Brunswick (2007-present) Patrol Squadron Ten (2003-2007) United States Navy
that is really good to know because it means in the future no one need worry about mounting the motor straight up .i could have mounted mine vertical but it gave me more axle clearance to have it at the stock tilt .and i was concerned about oil starvation .i got my solstice manifold today from mallett cars .while i was waiting for the parts i got a tour .i have never seen so many high powered cars in one place before .one of their new builds is a turbocharged LS7 powered solstice . they have over 100 less than 100 mile 2.4 ecos that have been removed from solstice and sky v8 conversion cars .on their website they have been asking 2500 for them but it sounds like they might be willing to deal .the down side is they have no harnesses or ecm's .i know my wiring wont support the VVT and drive by wire or i might pick one up , mainly for the stronger bottom end .here are some picks of the solstice manifold sitting on my eco .it is an improvement but it is going to be a bit of work to avoid the inboard cv joint .i bought a cat as well ,but its a no go .i may still use it ,but i cant just bolt it up to the manifold as on the solstice .the 2.4 manifold has a larger ,round opening compared to the 2.2 manifold . the cavalier manifold exit hole the solstice cat
havent got much done lately .the new feed to the turbo is heat wrapped and installed with the turbo mounted .all thats left is to find a new spot for the oil evac pump and reconnect the cooling lines .i am also running tubing so i can install a manual boost controller in the centre console .the paying job is getting in the way .i am spending all my spare time studying for a set of exams that will net me another raise .more pics on the weekend i hope .
i now have all the coolant and oil lines and evacuation pump remounted and i fired it up .no leaks and no sign of any oil getting past the turbo seals .the pics show the new pump location and how i now have a straight drop down to the evac pump .i havent hooked up the intake or charge pipe yet but now that i have checked for leaks that is the next job . i also made a more compact lower dogbone .you cant see it in the pics ,but the bolts have poly isolators .
is this an ecotec to fiero-tranny adapterplate? if yes , who sells something ? i want to run an turbo 2.0 c20let on the standard th125c
If the block of that is the same as the 1.8 and 2.0 turbocharged engines that were used in the Sunbirds over in America during the 80s, the bolt pattern will fit the Fiero transmission. Are you sure the newer ones have the Ecotec bolt pattern?
Here is a 2.0L Sunbird bellhousing, it is simmilar to a GM V6, but I dont know how well it will work, you would have to cut a hole out for starter clearance, and some of the bolts around there are in a different spot, plus the 2.0L OHC has some bellhousing bolts below the crank that go through the oil pan I think. It may bolt up on the front, but none of the bolts on the rear of the bellhousing will line up properly.
I believe this is the same block as the one pictured above
[This message has been edited by befarrer (edited 03-04-2008).]
There isnt a 'fiero' adapter plate but Bates Engineering builds one for the ecotec that brings the pattern to the 'standard' pattern. Im using it hooked to the stock isuzi transmission. Now I must say the stock isuzi MT5 is sweet with the ecotec because for the first time I can do 0-60 in 1st and 2nd compared to 1st and shifting 2nd at like 55mph...
the c20let (turbo 204HP) has the same block like the c20xe (150HP) both DOHC engines the Exhaustmanifold is on the "correct" side not like the quad4 engines
the c20let (turbo 204HP) has the same block like the c20xe (150HP) both DOHC engines the Exhaustmanifold is on the "correct" side not like the quad4 engines
I like how Opel's LT3 has the exhaust manifold towards the front of the engine. Having it towards the rear is just silly.
So, here is the bolt pattern for our transmissions:
Its obviously different from the bolt pattern posted above. It sucks to me because my research indicated there was no difference between the LT3 transmission and ours.
But we are derailing a swap thread, so I'll shut up.
[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 03-05-2008).]
i dont mind .that engine looks interesting .is it all aluminum ? having the exhaust on that side of the head would make things easier in the fiero .with the belt drive cams and water pump it would be easy to work on .was it ever sent to north america ?
i dont mind .that engine looks interesting .is it all aluminum ? having the exhaust on that side of the head would make things easier in the fiero .with the belt drive cams and water pump it would be easy to work on .was it ever sent to north america ?
The 1.8/2.0 Sunbird engine was an iron block with a SOHC aluminum head. The newer Opel engines of the same family have DOHC heads that are supposed to fit. A simple head change was rumored to net about 60 hp.
The really interesting thing, to me, is that the rods and crank are cast iron put under 10 psi of boost at the max. That engine was a real beast in its day.
The engine likes to eat cams and the head gaskets like to blow. A layered steel gasket will solve it, though. Not a whole lot you can do about the cam issue except perhaps open up the oil passages or experiment with different types of oil.
i relocated the charge pipe so that it now goes up and over the engine .the blow off valve tubing now follws the same path down to the new intake location under the trunk .i have removed about 6 feet of intake and charge pipe plumbing and 3 - 90* elbows .should help the flow a bit .i have mounted my 6:1 vortech FMU on the left hand side of the cylinder head (not connected yet , tomorrows job ).i now have a large space above the transaxle where i am going to properly mount the 2 ecotec fuse boxes and probably the ECU .and hide all the extra wiring .the engine runs very smooth now that all the vaccuum lines are connected and the new turbo position makes it impossibe for the oil to get past the seals and into the engine .i also relocated the brake booster check valve to the front of the car where it will be easier to change out .it looks a little melted on one side and although it seems to be working ok it will save crawling under the car to change it out .under my trunk is now quite crowded but everythings fits nicely .i am no longer using a muffler and it has a nice mellow sound that is not that loud .the turbo does double duty as a muffler now .i am going to try to do a youtube of the sound next week some time .i think most of you will be surprised at how nice this 4 cylinder sounds . pics :
got the FMU plumbed up and now i am adding the 100 psi holly inline booster fuel pump .i am doing this a bit different than usual .i dont want this pump to run except when the motor is under boost .so since my water meth system is boost activated , i am using a bypass line around the boost fuel pump with a check valve to prevent back flow when the boost pump kicks on .the feed from the water meth controller will activate a relay coil and the boost fuel pump will activate .i dont want to risk frying my water meth controller by running two pumps off of it so i will use a relay . i think this will be easier on the stock fuel pressure regulator and i dont need to listen to the noise of another electric pump running . pics: all the plumbing is now hooked up tomorrow i will finish the wiring .
finished the wiring today and made a bracket to hold the ecotec fuse blocks .the inline fuel pump is now run off of a relaywhose coil is fed by the water meth controller .the fuel pump should kick in at about 5 psi of boost and drop back out at about 4 psi .this is because it will take about 9 volts to pull in the coil and at 8 volts the coil will not hold the contacts in .the point of all this extra stuff is so i can safelyrun at 12 lbs of boost . i ran at 8 lbs last summer with just the water meth and bigger injectors .this gave me an estimated 200 whp .i am hoping to pull around 250 whp this summer .the timing is stock and will probably stay that way .
i got tired of trying to stuff everything under the old fiero centre glovebox so i built a new housing.gives me a place to mount the boost controller and boost guage .
i tested my new auxilliary fuel pump controls by sending some air pressure in to the boost referance line for the water meth cotroller and the pump came on .works great.i couldnt test it by just running the revs up because my setup will not build boost unless it is under load .the roads are slowly getting better around here but i have some more front end work to do before a test drive.hoping april 2 after i get back from my florida golf trip .
i was hoping to spend the whole day cleaning up some odd suspension jobs , but i crawled under the car to find that the turbo seals are leaking again .funny it just showed up now , i have been idling the car and checking for leaks of all kinds for the last 2 weeks and nothing at all till this morning .the culprit seems to be my expensive gear drive oil pump .there were 2 sizes to pick from and i picked the smaller one and that was a mistake .this pump just does not move enough oil .so i put the shurflo pump back on and even holding at a steady 3000 rpm , no oil past the seals .i dont really trust this pump , but everything i have read about it says they are reliable , so i guess i am stuck with it . i got around to the drivers side suspension .i needed to make sure that the poly bushings moved with the arms and not have the arms rotate around the poly bushings .this causes excesive wear onthe poly .i had to drill and tap some holes in the control arms and add some small bolts to get this the way i wanted .here are some pics: i also notched the poly to let the grease flow to the sleeve that the poly is supposed to rotate around .i wanted to get this all done before i go golfing in florida but i still have the passenger side to do .i hope to drop in on the daytona show while i am down thre but i will be sans fiero .and i have some friends to look up so who knows .
got back from florida (never made daytona ,no time this year ) and put the car on the road .tried out my HP tuners scanner and it revealed a big problem : thats my intake air temperature .when it wasnt in the red , it was between 35 to 42 * c .not good , even with water meth coolling .so i relocated my charge and intake pipes to below the car and found a spot where the filter could get outside air without getting wet (behind the passenger door ) .the result : now it is running at about 20* c and only spikes into the red under full boost .no more pipes over the engine : i used the hp tuners system to change my injector constant , calibrate my speedometer ,raise my redline and raise the speed governor .i am still getting the hang of hp tuners and have a lot to learn but so far i am impressed by this system .
the car has been running pretty good but every once in a while it runs like a 3 cylinder diesel that got into some bad fuel .this only lasts until you get on the highway and give it a good rev ving and then it goes back to normal .not knowing where to look , i thought it was the O2 sensors .replaced them , car ran the best it ever had .for about 40 minutes .then the the same thing .new o2 sensors are not cheap , especially when there is nothing wrong with your old ones .the real culprit seems to be my idle air control valve .this is not a cheap item either (200.00) .my engine and tranny cost me 1000 bucks .my two new sensors and one IAC valve cost almost 500 .00 .ouch ! performance improvements has a big sale on now so i bought an intercooler .sits where the fiero cat used to be : put some scoops on to lower intake and engine bay temps
in my quest to end my intermittent rough running , i figured the culprit might be my jury rigged injector harness .so i went to the wreckers and picked up a harness that had the right ends on it .it was from a v8 of some kind so now i have enough to make anothr harness .while i was there i picked up a working rt side headlight assembly to fix that problem .Huron Auto wreckers near Ripley Ont (519 395 2827) has an 84 4 speed that is mostly intact .body and mouldings look pretty good .it is red with grey interiour with striped seats .good centre consule and it has a sunroof ,drivers seat ripped but passenger side looks good .my harness: seems to have solved the problem but i only drove about 15 miles and sometimes i could go over 90 miles without a problem .either way ,it is a big improvement over the old harness .these connectors are nice in that they dont use the wire clips like the fiero injector connectors .they have built in plastic lockers on the side .
my new injector harness has now officially solved my intermittant rough running problems .i put another 100 trouble free miles and there was no sign of problems and my hp tuners scan looks good .i should have fixed the harness first , would have saved some coin . i did some more tuning changing a few things to help lower my KR and improve driveability .got the data from a thread on the hp tuners forum .works really well , one more small change and all my KR will be gone .its amazing how little has to be changed to run a turbo with the stock VCM .if you ran a max of 5psi boost , you could probably just put 30 lb injectors in and carry on .the computer will lower your timing as the boost comes up and make other needed adjustments automatically. my car now runs like a stocker , except when i stomp on it .i didnt think i was ever going to be able to say that .
the car is still running great and i drive it every day .hoping to get to the dragstrip in a couple of weeks .any one know of any dynoes in London , ontario ?
i am waiting on a AEM guage type boost controller to take my car to the next level .a week from next friday i should be down at grand bend dragway to finally get an official time slip .(as long as test and tune is on that night ).
. I always had a misfire/detenation issue at 6k+ range. It may of been a bad motor before I got it. But I know I blew 3 ringlands, compression was still over 205psi on blown ringlands, the 4th happend on #2 cylinder a second time and I pulled parts of the piston up with a magnet. The sleeves,rods and crank are good on the motor but for the price to rebuild it I can get another low mileage motor and have extra parts still 
