Pennock's Fiero Forum
  The Construction Zone
  We Build a Perfect Union (Page 8)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 78 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
We Build a Perfect Union by Archie
Started on: 01-11-2006 09:04 PM
Replies: 3080 (368115 views)
Last post by: troyboy on 10-29-2016 12:55 PM
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-26-2006 07:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Sourmug:

Wow Archie, it's looking great! Thanks for taking the time to post all the pictures and the write-up.

Nolan


You're very welcome.

I hope I'm giving enough detail so that people realize that it is really labor intensive & takes quite some time to do.

But it can be done by anyone who can think ahead & use the right materials.

Stay tuned.

Archie
IP: Logged
RCR
Member
Posts: 4410
From: Shelby Twp Mi
Registered: Sep 2002


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 102
Rate this member

Report this Post08-26-2006 08:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ahhhh....More ideas ...Great buil-up Archie. Awesome job. Congrats Troyboy.

Bob
IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post08-27-2006 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RCR:

Ahhhh....More ideas ...Great buil-up Archie. Awesome job. Congrats Troyboy.

Bob


Thanks, Archie and his crew are top notch. No matter how crazy of an idea I come up with, they bring it to life. I cant wait to see what they do with the interior.
IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Troy, Curley, I know you guys are sitting up waiting for an update.

However, I had to take the wife to the Hospital yesterday & again today. I left the shop at 10AM today & Rob was working on it but I was too burned out to stop by there tonite on the way home to take pics. I'll catch you up tomorrow morning.

Archie
IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Archie

9436 posts
Member since Dec 1999
We should have final pics tonite.





Archie
IP: Logged
exoticse
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Orlando, Fl
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 108
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for exoticseSend a Private Message to exoticseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Man Archie,....that is some good work !
IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

We should have final pics tonite.





Archie


lol, I can't stop looking at the pics. Once again Archie great work!!
IP: Logged
Icelander
Member
Posts: 302
From: Snohomish, WA, USA
Registered: Aug 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IcelanderSend a Private Message to IcelanderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hope the wife's OK Archie!

You do great work!

------------------
Kendall (Icelander) Whitlatch
'85 Fiero 2M4 - 5spd Isuzu
'67 LeMans/GTO clone 6.5 litre TH400
All the rest aren't Pontiacs, so what does it matter?

IP: Logged
Fie Ro
Member
Posts: 3735
From: Soest, The Netherlands
Registered: Sep 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 132
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 06:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fie RoSend a Private Message to Fie RoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice ideas and buildup going on here ! The nsx lights look real good...
 
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:
Thanks for the update Archie. Hey fourpoint9 could you add this to the Photoshop replacing the turn signals.

I was just wondering about these...tried a rough "lights" photoshop with this pic
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

Archie
aha

dimensions are most likely off here but I bet the combo will look great together..nice work and nice find.


IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-29-2006 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had hoped to post final pics of the lights mounted & with the hood & front end in white primer.

However, when prepairing the hood for primer we found several "Voids" under the gelcoat on that scoop that's in the hood. We decided to fix them now & thus, we've delayed the pics 'til tomorrow morning.

Rob spent a lot of today fussing with the gaps around the lights & the shapes from side to side of the headlight scoops, but they're lookin great.

Just when you think you're done something else pops up.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-29-2006).]

IP: Logged
PaulJK
Member
Posts: 6638
From: Los Angeles
Registered: Oct 2001


Feedback score:    (25)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 237
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 02:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to My world .... that's been happening to me with my kitcar for ...oh.....about 4 years now ......
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you'll approve.......









I also have an appointment to get the big wheels/tires mounted tomorrow morning.

At first when I talked to the guy he said he didn't think he could mount them. Then I sent him pictures of the wheels & he wrote back that they should be able to do it.

Keep your fingers crossed.

Archie
IP: Logged
ITALGT
Member
Posts: 994
From: Cocoa, FL
Registered: Jan 2002


Feedback score:    (6)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITALGTSend a Private Message to ITALGTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now THAT is looking sexy... very nice work indeed, I love how the body lines flow so well with each other with those headlights... looks like a factory supercar.

Wicked stuff, Archie, wicked stuff...

Brett
IP: Logged
shawnkfl
Member
Posts: 2457
From: Largo, Florida
Registered: Oct 2004


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 72
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for shawnkflSend a Private Message to shawnkflEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i just have to say, it's not my taste. but, the craftsmanship you do archie is amazing to say the least. you've made those look like they've always been there. i wish i could afford to let you tear into my car.
IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Words can't express how I feel about the outstanding job you have done Archie.

Thank You Archie for making the NSX pipe dream a reality.

Troy
IP: Logged
exoticse
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Orlando, Fl
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 108
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for exoticseSend a Private Message to exoticseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


The cool part is now that troyboy has broken the seal, Archie is now seasoned enough to perform it again for someone else who might want it.
IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2006 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:

Words can't express how I feel about the outstanding job you have done Archie.

Thank You Archie for making the NSX pipe dream a reality.

Troy


Your Welcome.

Thank you for letting us play with expensive parts that I would have been afraid to buy on my own.

I gotta say they look great.

edited to add>>> I gotta add that Rob (the guy who made this happen) really adopted this headlight project & insisted on getting it perfect.


 
quote
Originally posted by exoticse:

The cool part is now that troyboy has broken the seal, Archie is now seasoned enough to perform it again for someone else who might want it.


Well, you gotta remember that the modifications that we did to the nose were done to a Figerglass nose. The same mods would be a lot harder to do to a soft plastic Fiero nose.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-30-2006).]

IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I drove into Chicago today just 7 blocks South of the City center to get Troy's 20x12" wheels fitted with the equally huge rubber he bought.

You'll recall that we had a little bit of trouble previously getting thse units joined together.

No problem this time. I took them to Lee's Foreign Car Service at 727 South Jefferson St., Chicago, IL 60607.

I'm very impressed at how I was treated by everyone there. Let me tell you my story......

I drove around the block twice by the time I realized that there was no place I could park legally. So I stuck my truck into a drive right behind the company truck. I stepped inside & found my contact, Gabriel & he sent the tire expert out with me to unload my truck. By then another employee, returning from a test drive, was tooting for me to move the truck (I was blocking a drive to another building they have there). Anyway, he backed out into the street & I backed out & went around the block again while he pulled his car into the other lot. By the time I returned, this employee had moved the company truck a little forward so I'd have a place to park.

I then hurried inside & asked Gabriel if I could take some pictures of the tires being mounted. He said "Sorry, they're already mounted & we're balancing them now" looking down at one of Troy's assemblies on the balancing machine. So I didn't get any pictures of the tire machine that mounted these babies. But it was a beauty, it made the one Curley showed in another thread look like an antique.

Wow, What service!!!!! I'm gonna send everyone I know there.

I want to give a shout out to:

Gabriel Kenneth <~~~~ Rim & Tire Specialists & to the Manager Jerry Sang I'm really happy with the service I got today.

Now, does anyone want to see what they look like on the car????

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-31-2006).]

IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
roll out the beef.
IP: Logged
motoracer838
Member
Posts: 3751
From: Edgewater Co. USofA
Registered: Jan 2006


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 83
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Man this has been a long time coming, don't keep us waiting!!!

Joe
IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post








............
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post








Hope you like it, I do.

Archie
IP: Logged
exoticse
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Orlando, Fl
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 108
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for exoticseSend a Private Message to exoticseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Holy SH*T !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by exoticse (edited 08-31-2006).]

IP: Logged
jmbishop
Member
Posts: 4484
From: Probably Texas
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 169
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish we could see it without the chin spoiler
IP: Logged
RCR
Member
Posts: 4410
From: Shelby Twp Mi
Registered: Sep 2002


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 102
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That car is badass (ahem...except for the chin spoiler - it droops down on a wierd angle).

Beautiful job Archie (and crew).

Bob
IP: Logged
THE BEAST
Member
Posts: 1177
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for THE BEASTSend a Private Message to THE BEASTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry that I have to say this. But the front Chin spoiler ruins the body's lower line (when looking at the car from the side). In other wards the lower line of the chin is off. Besides that that car looks great! One very rewarding product!

JG
IP: Logged
jmbishop
Member
Posts: 4484
From: Probably Texas
Registered: Jul 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 169
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jmbishopSend a Private Message to jmbishopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sure it will be changed. We won't have to convince them to do that.
IP: Logged
exoticse
Member
Posts: 8654
From: Orlando, Fl
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 108
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for exoticseSend a Private Message to exoticseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jmbishop:

I'm sure it will be changed. We won't have to convince them to do that.


Yeah troyboy is well aware of the awkward angle and has long been exploring various options before deciding which way he wants to go.

IP: Logged
THE BEAST
Member
Posts: 1177
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for THE BEASTSend a Private Message to THE BEASTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank GOD!

JG
IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post08-31-2006 11:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow Archie the wheels look awesome, and the car shows great in the daylight. Now that stage one is almost complete, time for stage two after the show......
IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post09-01-2006 09:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Saber49
Member
Posts: 937
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 86
Rate this member

Report this Post09-01-2006 10:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Saber49Send a Private Message to Saber49Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
that car looks sweet... i didn't think those lights would look so great but wow... nice work!

------------------

IP: Logged
GKDINC
Member
Posts: 1812
From: East Tawas MI
Registered: Dec 2001


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-01-2006 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is this a preview of things to come ^^^^^
Looks good
thanks Gary
IP: Logged
Jncomutt
Member
Posts: 8900
From: Charlotte, NC
Registered: Apr 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 221
Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 12:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cool

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 09-07-2006).]

IP: Logged
Archie
Member
Posts: 9436
From: Las Vegas, NV
Registered: Dec 1999


Feedback score:    (12)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 546
Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here's what I was thinking.

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 09-02-2006).]

IP: Logged
Reise
Member
Posts: 69
From: Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Registered: Aug 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 12:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ReiseSend a Private Message to ReiseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think that the car looks absolutely awesome!!!! will anything be done with the doors? they seem a little awkward compared to the body lines.....I hope that the door handles get shaved and so does that trim molding that goes on the door.....also I'd leave the chin spoiler on and open up the mouth a little bit.....I have followed your work for a little bit now archie and I will definately be knocking on your door for a choptop,rocker covers,and chin spoiler in late 0'7 possibly early '08 depends on the situation at home i.e. the g/f. great job on this thing....almost looks like the concept that would steal the market and send the corvette boys to buy a fiero!!!!!
IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 02:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
An option for the chin spoiler. thanks for the photo shop Fie Ro


But as for the chin spoiler side profile, relax E-Z Fix. The spoiler will stay on until a curb or road kill takes it off, then I will look into other options that are on the drawing board.
IP: Logged
tjm4fun
Member
Posts: 3781
From: Long Island, NY USA
Registered: Feb 2006


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 141
Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 06:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tjm4funSend a Private Message to tjm4funEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Awesome! I gotta see this car when you get it home Troy!!! I'm in N.Merrick, so let me know when it's in town!

Archie, great job! maybe I'll yank both kids outta college so I can have you do one car for me....

ps if you are interested I can photochop the existing chin with minimum mods that could blend in better. That is till you go up any driveway in our area and remove it.....
IP: Logged
THE BEAST
Member
Posts: 1177
From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA
Registered: Dec 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for THE BEASTSend a Private Message to THE BEASTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

Here's what I was thinking.





Much better, and maybe getting rid off the side molding wont be a bad idea either. It makes the car look timeless. This car has enough money and time into it and shaving the moldings is not the place to get economical on it. (My 2 cents)

IP: Logged
troyboy
Member
Posts: 2075
From:
Registered: Sep 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 154
Rate this member

Report this Post09-02-2006 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

Here's what I was thinking.





I like it, looks like a added side wall. Just what I had in mind.
IP: Logged
Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 78 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   24   25   26   27   28   29   30   31   32   33   34   35   36   37   38   39   40   41   42   43   44   45   46   47   48   49   50   51   52   53   54   55   56   57   58   59   60   61   62   63   64   65   66   67   68   69   70   71   72   73   74   75   76   77   78 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock