While I was working on the hood project I had decided to do an engine swap. I was fortunate to drive Jelly2M8s V8 Fiero that summer while we were traveling in Nova Scotia. It was a real head snapping car.
I also drove Fiero38SC’s supercharged during the PA Gathering at the Gilberts. I was very impressed with the power this car had.
I also drove FieroF1’s turbo 2.8 GT at the fall club meeting. I could tell the extra power seriously changed the personality of the Fiero.
I had visited Rockcrawl to check out his 4.9 Caddy setup. Jon had convinced me into doing the 4.9 swap.
The install looked like it had a lot of potential. Therefore I decided to do a 4.9 Caddy engine swap and even visited several junkyards trying to find one.
One evening, I was surfing Ebay and found a new crate 3800 supercharged engine. I emailed the seller and he called me back to discuss the engine. Here is one of 32 pictures he sent me of the engine.
After the phone call I asked around what it would be worth and found out it was worth a lot more than the “Buy Now” price. So I did the “buy now” for $1400. Yikes! Just like that I had two major projects going at once so I decided to finish the hood before starting the engine swap.
The previous summer, Fleabit had found a wrecked 88 GT and asked me if there were anything I would want. It was a complete car. I was able to buy the engine, 5 speed Getrag, cradle, suspension, shifter, shifter cables and anything I needed for a automatic to manual trans swap all for $150. I figured it was certainly cheap and did not have any idea what I would do with it. It sat in the corner of my garage for over a year. It suddenly became obvious why I had bought it. This gave me the perfect platform to build the engine swap on. I could also convert my automatic GT into a 5 speed Getrag at the same time. I could do the complete conversion while leaving the GT alone until the swap was ready to go in the car. It was tough to let the new engine set as body filler dust kept building on top on it but I decided not to work on it till the bodywork was done.
Finally I was ready to start the engine work. There were lots of Pennock’s folk that assisted me in information on the engine swap but first and foremost was TerryK. He was so helpful getting me through the wiring and ECM stuff. Others that helped me were Eric at West Coast Fiero, Jelly2M8, Boilermaker, Phil, ToomanyFieros, Fiero38SC, Rockcrawl and I am sure I am missing some people. Many thanks to all. Let me say from the start about my engine swap. I plagued myself because I always think I have a better idea than GM. There was almost nothing on the outside of my engine that is still in its original place. I am in the Fiero chat room nearly every night and my friends constantly harassed me as to why it was not done yet. Good things take time. I was working in my garage usually from 4 o’clock to 9 or 10 o’clock every day from late fall till spring and I would use the Fiero chat room to unwind before bed. I often wondered what my neighbors thought with the garage lit up every night and the TV on. They must of thought I was banished to the garage.
Since I had the engine window I wanted to keep everything clean. I did not what anything interfering with the view through the window. When I announced that I was going to do a 3800SC swap, several people asked my why because the 3800 was too ugly to be in my car. I told them I would make it a pretty engine.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
The engine came with the engine harness but without the alternator, AC compressor or compressor bracket. I bought an 97 GTP car harness ($100) and 3800 Camaro manual flywheel ($50) through www.car-parts.com . Here you can see I was attempting to figure out where the harness connections would go.
Since I did not want to spend a lot of money I decided to get an AC bracket and compressor from a Series 1 3800 engine from a U-Pull-It yard for $10. The Series 1 bracket bolts on but does need some grinding to clear the block. I priced a 3800 SII alternator but decided to adapt my 88 Fiero alternator and bracket since it would create a cleaner install and would fit where the power steering pump would be and using this alternator would not cost me anything. Then I started to do a lot of measuring of the 2.8 and the 3800 engines. To my amazement, I found out the 3800 was shorter and lower than the 2.8. I had taught metal shop for 8 years so I can fabricate just about anything I need. So I then built my front motor mount for the conversion. The transmission mounts and axles could be left as stock since I was using the 5 speed Getrag. While doing the measuring I made an amazing discovery. The original dogbone mount for the 3800 could be mounted on the opposite head and was within fractions of an inch of the 2.8 dogbone mount. Hmmmm I think I have to use this. So I proceeded to adapt the dogbone and mount the unit on the cradle.
Next I started to tackle the wiring harness. Most 3800SC I see have a lot of ugly wire harness visible. Most just use the original harness on top of the engine and I have seen some swaps with both the 3800 harness and the 2.8 harness visible. I wanted my harness to be laid out like a Fiero harness and have as little as possible visible. I started by striping the harness from the sheath so I could arrange each wire in the path I chose. I also blended the Fiero harness into the 3800 harness at the same time. You can see the mess in the above and below photographs.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-07-2003).]
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
This process took a very long time since I kept relocating parts and redesigning the harness. I would often just sit and stare at the engine for long periods of time and Vonnie would come down and laugh at me staring at the engine. One evening she sneaked up on me and took this picture while I was in one of these trances. Now what I had to do with each wire was check what it was for and where it went on the 97 GTP engine wiring diagram then convert the connection as to which pin it would be on the 95 Bonneville ECM diagram as well as if it would connect to the Fiero harness and what pin it might be on the Fiero. I had the 97 GTP diagram blown up to four times its size so I could easily follow the wire path. This hung up over my work bench and is in fact still hanging there. This is only the diagram for the engine not the whole car. The harness started to come together after a few weeks. Notice that the harness is now designed exactly like a Fiero harness. I have the sheathed bundle extending over to the battery the same as the Fiero harness does. I even used the Fiero harness support brace to hold it securely. In this bundle is all the wires for the 3800 coil pack. I had decided to relocate the coil pack off the engine and over beside the battery. This would allow a cleaner install since the associated wires and spark plug wires would not be on the engine. The harness was almost done except for the connections at the ECM. I had decided to change to a 95 Bonneville ECM so the connectors would be different. I had to disconnect all the wires from two connectors like this and then solder them to three different connectors for the Bonneville ECM.
That ended up being over 100 wires cut spliced and soldered. I spent many evenings sitting like this splicing-soldering-testing each connection from both ends.
To take breaks from the wiring I worked on a few other things. I painted the valve covers and supercharger, installed the WCF headers and redesigned the pulley arrangement and created new fuel rails that went under the supercharger rather then over it.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
Eric at West Coast Fiero was one of my Fiero Chat room buddies and one night he asked me what I was doing for exhaust. I said that I would love their headers but could not afford them so they decided to help me out. They also provided poly motor mounts and a custom dogbone. I would help them out by showing their products at the shows. I owe them a huge thank you for their support. Their headers allow you to design the exhaust system like the original Fiero exhaust system. I sent the headers to Jet-Hot to be ceramic coated prior to installing the engine in the car.
One of the important things I was trying to accomplish was to make the engine appear to have been installed by the factory. . I wanted to engine to look similar to the stock Fiero engine. I really dislike the cheap looking plastic cover GM chooses to hide the mess they made under it. I felt that the supercharger should be something to show off through the window in the trunk lid and should not be hidden under plastic. Have you ever seen superchargers hidden on high performance show cars? So I removed the supercharger and painted it to match the red of the car, which is close to the Fiero engine color. The valve covers on the Series II engines are made of fiberglass. I wanted to have the look of the brushed aluminum of the original Fiero valve covers. I laminated 1/16th inch aluminum strips to the covers and finished them in the same luster of a Fiero valve cover.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-07-2003).]
The fuel rails on the 3800SC engine crosses over the supercharger 4 times. Since I was concerned with the view through the trunk window I decided to redesign them. What make this even more unacceptable is every 3800SC install then has to run long fuel lines from the inlet and outlet seen here all the way around the engine to connect to the fuel connections below the battery. That leaves ugly hoses running all around the engine compartment. I used the original Fiero steel fuel lines and brazed them into my redesigned fuel rails so no hoses are needed at all.
I also used the original 3800 manifold heat shields and modified them to use with the headers as seen above.
Here is a good picture of how I redesigned my pulleys. I ended up reducing it by two pulleys. Pulleys cost you horsepower.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-07-2003).]
I got my flywheel back from the machinist and received V8Archie’s Centerforce clutch so I installed them.
The other system I needed to construct were the connections for the cooling. I wanted to create pipes the would drop exactly to the same locations as the stock hoses. I also needed a way to fill the system. I tried to find something the diameter of pipe I wanted that I could bend to the shape I wanted. I looked and looked and asked my buddies on the Fiero chat. Finally it came to me at the hardware store. PVC pipe. I would use my space heater to heat the pipes until soft then bend it to shape and cool it in the sink. Eventually I had two pieces the proper shape so I could take them to my exhaust guy and say make me copies of these pipes in steel. I brazed a filler fitting from a 4 cylinder to the top of the pipe to create the filler.
I do not have any pictures involving converting the car from automatic to a manual setup. So let me explain what was involved. The hardest part to do was installing the cables which is not hard but involves completely disassembling the center console. Once you have the plastic skeleton out it is easy to change the cables. I have heard horror stories here on the forum how hard it is to change the pedal assembly and some of the stories were by very respected members on the forum. One said you must remove the pedal assembly and suggested to just use a sawzall to cut the old one out the other individual said you cannot add the clutch assembly to the automatic assembly. Well, I added my clutch assembly to the automatic assembly in about 15 minutes. All that is needed to be done is remove the bolt that the pedals swing on and then bolt the clutch assembly onto the automatic assembly with bolts and nuts. Then install all the pedals with the new longer bolt but install the long bolt in from the opposite side of the pedal assembly. Bolt the new master brake cylinder. Remove the old automatic lines from under the car and install the clutch fluid line in place. I suggest removing the plastic pan under the spare tire to make it easier to get the fluid line up to the master cylinder. I did not change steering columns but have on to swap someday perhaps.
Well, it was getting time to install the 3800SC so for the second time in a little over a year I was dropping the 2.8 engine. I use a skid cut to the size of the cradle. I mount a inexpensive set of refrigerator rollers to the skid. On smooth concrete you can easily slide the assembly in any direction with the engine on it. It sure works great. I only need one floor jack and two jack stands to remove an engine. I roll it out the side usually so I don’t have to have the car up very high.
Out with the old and in with the new. I had made the 3800 engine setup totally plug and play. So all that needed to be done is remove the 2.8 install the 3800 and connect the exact same connectors that were used to connect the 2.8 to the car. This would allow me to reinstall the stock engine back in without modifying anything or transfer this 3800 to another 88 Fiero with ease. There were no modfications to the car itself to recieve the 3800.
Well I will try to get finished with this soon, maybe tomorrow. Sorry it is getting so long. I am surprised at how few comments there are compared to the number of times it is viewed. Strange??
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
You said that the engine was well worth the price the guy was asking or worth even more then the guy was asking, why? (not saying it wasn't, just wondering)
About your last comment... no we are all to busy drooling all over out keyboards and shorting them out Matt
[This message has been edited by fiero go fast (edited 02-07-2003).]
You said that the engine was well worth the price the guy was asking or worth even more then the guy was asking, why? (not saying it wasn't, just wondering)
About your last comment... no we are all to busy drooling all over out keyboards and shorting them out Matt
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I prepared the 2.8 to be dropped one evening and dropped the engine in the morning. I did a did a test fit of the 3800SC the same day. Lowered it and adjusted a front motor mount spacer to raise the engine. Later that day I put the engine in for good. So the car was not without a engine for a whole day.
I asked a friend about it who is a GM parts guy. He said they charge $1200 for the supercharger alone. The engine assembly without the supercharger would be around $3000 through GM.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-07-2003).]
Hi Skitime I just wanted to say, that eng looks AMAZING , it looks like a work of art, and I love the window you put on the eng cover it looks like it came like that from factory, would you please post more pic of it. Also, would you please tell us a little bit about how the car feels while driving, for those of us that are just on the dreaming stage of our swap.
[This message has been edited by 85LAMB (edited 02-07-2003).]
Reason for so many views, and so few comments? We're all just amazed at the work you've done, as well as the speed you work at... just speechless. I wish I had some extra time to work on my car... although reading about your work is really quite motivational as well.
Originally posted by Skitime: I am surprised at how few comments there are compared to the number of times it is viewed. Strange??
Ski, I'm just taking it all in. I've seen so many pics of your beautiful car over the past couple of years. To see how it all went together, and became the machine that it is now is impressive...and does tend to make one speechless..
Simply amazing, what a captivating read. You should consider writing for "Hanes". There would be so many more people working on their cars. This thread is going to be kept on my hard drive for a very long time. Keep up the great work. James.
I never noticed how awsome your hood was. I totally agree about how the ZR hoods screw the lines up, a friend of mine was telling me about them but I didnt like the way it killed the lines either.
it's explained pretty clear so there's few questions, and it's a pretty complete explanation so there's no real need for added comments. it's just watch and learn.
------------------ Phil T.
start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. arthur ashe
i may be changed by what happens to me, but i refuse to be reduced by it. maya angelou
Here's a comment...Skitime you are a Fiero Genius. Too bad you don't work on Fieros for a living. The rest of us could use your genius to make our cars look as good as yours.
I am wondering how you got the underside of the hood and decklid looking so good? They are both flat black just like what came from the factory, and I'm guessing you had those painted after you were done modifying? Honestly, the underside of the hood looks factory original.
I am wondering how you got the underside of the hood and decklid looking so good? They are both flat black just like what came from the factory, and I'm guessing you had those painted after you were done modifying? Honestly, the underside of the hood looks factory original.
What I had to do is complete cover the underside with body filler to cover the rough blown fiberglass. Then sand by hand until it is perfectly smooth prior to bonding it to the hood. I had to completely create a new contoured shape to the hood prior to mating the pieces. I added a pictures of the hood prior to bonding the scoop to the hood so look back in that section.
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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 Supercharged White 88 GT Stock Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
I have a question and a comment. First the comment. I am with everyone here when I say you did a spectacular job with your car. And now for the question. I am in the process of a 3800SC swap myself and I am wondering if you still have the template you used for your cooling system? Or if possible would you get another set done if I pay for them plus extra for your trouble? Also very curious on your fuel rail modifications. Thanks in advance. HIOSILVER
I have a question and a comment. First the comment. I am with everyone here when I say you did a spectacular job with your car. And now for the question. I am in the process of a 3800SC swap myself and I am wondering if you still have the template you used for your cooling system? Or if possible would you get another set done if I pay for them plus extra for your trouble? Also very curious on your fuel rail modifications. Thanks in advance. HIOSILVER
Yes, I do still have my PVC patterns. I am not sure if they would work for someone else or not since each install is different. For example I am using a series 1 AC compressor so the pipe might not clear a Series 2 compressor. There is still a lot of custom welding of support brackets too. Now about fuel rails, I get asked a lot about these and had several request to make them for people. Since the rails are under a lot of fuel pressure a crack or even a pin hole would be a disaster. Therefore I have refrained from making these for someone because of the libility of having one that would fail. I mostly used the original pipe and rebent it after cutting it. I machined couplers on a lathe to precisely fit the pipe and brazed they pieces together so it would be plenty strong. One advantage is I will have an easy time putting on a intercooler which I hope to do soon. Since it will raise the supercharger two inches.
Since I had the engine window I wanted to keep everything clean. I did not what anything interfering with the view through the window. When I announced that I was going to do a 3800SC swap, several people asked my why because the 3800 was too ugly to be in my car. I told them I would make it a pretty engine.
I too was one of those that thought the 3800SC would look like a mess in the window compared to the beautiful plenum of the Fiero. I'm glad you kept your promise and made the 3800SC pretty. But I had no idea you had to go through so much work to clean up the look of the engine with re-routing the fuel lines and wiring harnesses. That is a lot of extra work, but takes your car to the next level of being a true show car. Congratulations!
Understood. I do have a guy that will be doing some welding for me and custom brackets wouldnt be an issue for him. I do not have ac in my car nor do I have plans to install it. TTops is fine enough for me. Plus I live in Maine so AC is not really a requirement for me. At least 9 months out of the year anyway ;-) So I still would be interested. The pipe you had made is formed to go around the compressor? Seeing as though I wont have that is the bend that significant? Understood about the fuel lines. I didnt really anticipate going that far anyway. Let me know. Thanks HIOSILVER
quote
Originally posted by skitime:
Yes, I do still have my PVC patterns. I am not sure if they would work for someone else or not since each install is different. For example I am using a series 1 AC compressor so the pipe might not clear a Series 2 compressor. There is still a lot of custom welding of support brackets too. Now about fuel rails, I get asked a lot about these and had several request to make them for people. Since the rails are under a lot of fuel pressure a crack or even a pin hole would be a disaster. Therefore I have refrained from making these for someone because of the libility of having one that would fail. I mostly used the original pipe and rebent it after cutting it. I machined couplers on a lathe to precisely fit the pipe and brazed they pieces together so it would be plenty strong. One advantage is I will have an easy time putting on a intercooler which I hope to do soon. Since it will raise the supercharger two inches.
[This message has been edited by HIOSILVER! (edited 02-08-2003).]
Understood. I do have a guy that will be doing some welding for me and custom brackets wouldnt be an issue for him. I do not have ac in my car nor do I have plans to install it. TTops is fine enough for me. Plus I live in Maine so AC is not really a requirement for me. At least 9 months out of the year anyway ;-) So I still would be interested. The pipe you had made is formed to go around the compressor? Seeing as though I wont have that is the bend that significant? Understood about the fuel lines. I didnt really anticipate going that far anyway. Let me know. Thanks HIOSILVER
You can see the pipe bending around the AC compressor in the section where I mentioned the PVC bending. Since you don't have AC it would be a easy piece to make yourself with my technique.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
Well, let me continue. After physically installing the engine. Vonnie and I towed the car to the muffler shop with a tow strap. Not a very pretty sight since there was no hood, front fenders or nose. Those pieces were not back from the body shop yet. I had already purchased and modified a Series 80 Flowmaster muffler while the engine was out. I had to make clearance for the cradle.
I had the shop install a flex joint at the header and use 2-½ stainless steel pipes throughout. It then flowed through a high flow CAT and with tight clearance past the oil pan and into the Flowmaster muffler and exhausts out through West Coast Fiero tips.
After towing it home, I had to start hooking up all the lines and hoses and connections. I believe that was on a Wednesday. I spent a few evenings carefully hooking stuff up. I was very nervous about putting electric to the harness. I just knew some wires would smoke, sparks would fly, and flames would appear. Saturday evening I was done and announced to Vonnie I can’t find anything else to do. It must be ready.
Since I was worried about the wiring I disconnected the ECM just in case. So I carefully hooked the battery up. No sparks, no smoke. So I worriedly turned the key to on. No sparks, no smoke. I left the key on for 5 minutes just to be sure. I decided to turn the key to tap the starter. Nothing!! Damn Now what could be wrong. I knew all the wires were connected on the starter. I tested the starter by jumping the solenoid and it worked. I just took the Fiero manual inside and sat down to figure what I could of possibly done wrong. I figured I would be in for a long troubleshooting session. Almost by magic the manual opened to the starter diagram and there it was. On the C500 connector the automatics use a different pin for the solenoid than the manual cars. I had a automatic car and used a manual 2.8 engine harness to create my 3800 harness. I could not believe I found it so easily. I went out and move the pin to the correct location and tried again. OK the starter now turns the engine and no sparks or smoke. Hallelujah!!!
I just waited a while thinking about things and decided to hook up the ECM but removed my custom burnt chip just in case. I again just turned the key on and waited for smoke. Nothing. Turned the starter over. No smoke no sparks. I breathed a sigh of relief. I decided not to push my luck and quit for the night.
Sunday morning I decided to put the chip back in the ECM and do my smoke and sparks test. Nervously, I put it in and turned the key to on. Only heard the fuel pump priming. That’s a good sign. I decided to tap the starter for the smoke and sparks test. VAROOMMMMMM Oh my god it started immediately and scared the crap out of me! I instantly turned if off and was scared to look at the engine. Vonnie by now had run downstairs to the garage to see what the heck the noise was. I had a scared grin from ear to ear. I had started it by accident but it had started so easily. So with Vonnie watching for trouble I restarted it. Boy was the exhaust loud and sweet. It ran without so much as a miss. DAMN that was cool.
After a few test runs and checking that the coolant was full, I let it run long enough for it to get hot and burn off the oil and stuff since this was a new crate engine. Suddenly the entire contents of the cooling system dumped out on the floor. It was a green flood! Oh no, now what happened? Turns out some idiot never tighten the hose clamp to the coolant pipe under the passenger door. I couldn’t even yell at that idiot. Oh well I fixed the problem and refilled the system. After that I could only enjoy listening to the engine since I had not connected the hydraulics for the clutch.
Jim Gilbert (TooManyFieros) and I had dismantled the Getrag transmission weeks ago since this transmission was an unknown trans from a yard. We were amazed that it looked perfect inside. What luck! We decided to replace the differential axle bearings as well as the input shaft bearings. So after rebuilding the master and slave cylinders I bleed the system and luckily the clutch was releasing properly. Gee guess it soon time for a drive. I put the trunk lid back on and pulled it outside for some trunk lid pictures with a 3800SC. Since I was waiting for the front end body panels I resisted driving it on the street but the clutch and trans seemed fine.
[This message has been edited by skitime (edited 02-08-2003).]
Finally the front end body panels were ready to be picked up. YAHOO!! I had the nose and spoiler repainted as well just to be sure of a good match. I was excited to get the pieces on after months of working on them.
Well with the body panels on I could finally take the car out for a drive. I cannot totally describe the thrill of accomplishing the engine swap by myself. To know exactly where every wire is located and what it connects to, to know how the engine is mounted and engineered is such a satisfying feeling. It makes you so much more than the driver of your car and you become part of the car. The power of the engine is awesome it loves to pull hard and long. There is no lag in power as with a turbo. You can drive the car easy and it purrs right along. It has the power to lug through slow speeds in high gears that reduces shifting. The exhaust is nice and quite while driving easy but bellows sweetly when you get on the accelerator. One of the first drives we did was to go out and take some pictures of the new bodywork. Here is some of the first pictures we took on our first drive. It shows perfectly the bodylines on the nose I was trying to retain on the hood.
