fierosound:Still working making it run/drive as good as it looks. Not fully broken in, so don't ask for dyno or 1/4 mile times.
Starts OK, idles like crap, cruises good, WOT is terrible - falls on it's face. TERRIBLE mileage - you can watch the fuel gauge needle move as you drive. Loud as hell, handles like crap, and can't get ECM to control TCC properly. Makes me feel sick to over how much went into this, and often wish I never bought it - since it wasn't really what I THOUGHT I was getting. Thanks Chester...
Yeah, I'm beginning to understand how Chester came up with the name The Dirty Rat. If you want to see some of the problems I had with my 4t60 TCC, check https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/052684.html
[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 12-06-2008).]
... The stock cruise control parts (vacuum canister, diaphram, solenoid etc) were removed and a less bulky Delco electronic cruise unit was installed below the air cleaner.
Still haven't fixed the head, but I thought I'd post this today...
I needed room to mount the air cleaner where the cruise control vacuum canister, solenoid etc were. So I switched to the much more compact Delco electronic cruise module used after 1996 on many GM cars.
As I said earlier, the Edelbrock AVS 500cfm is too damn big, and it's the smallest they make. Idle is not bad but could be better, part throttle driving is pretty good but WOT is terrible. The engine doesn't draw enough air to open the secondary air valve and pull the fuel properly.
Even though it's listed as a 500cfm, mechanically it looks identical to the 600cfm - the primary difference being the jet sizes. Specifically, we're looking at the throttle bores and venturi diameters. Smaller primaries and smaller secondaries are what's needed because at 3.3L displacement, the engine will only ever draw about 400cfm.
The Edelbrocks are a clone of the Carter Super-Quad AFB /AVS series of carburetors and are physically identical. Well, Carter DID make a 400cfm carb - the AFB 9400/9410 and it had smaller venturis and bores compared to the Edelbrock 500cfm. This should make it perfect for the 3.3L SD4.
Unfortunately, Carter hasn't made any for 20 years and since they were only made as a replacement carb for the GM 231 V6, they are very rare. A rebuilt one just sold on eBay 2 weeks earlier for $350 - darn!! And emailing all the carb rebuilders came up with nothing.
As luck would have it, I finally DID find a brand new, in the box Carter AFB 9410 400cfm from The Carb Shop. http://www.thecarburetorshop.com
It was likely the last and ONLY new one in existence and I paid dearly for it. It seems nothing is cheap with an SD4!
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the nice polished finish of the Edelbrock.
The smaller primary venturies would produce faster air velocity at idle and would greatly improve that function. And smaller secondaries are what's needed because at 3.3L displacement, the engine will only ever draw about 400cfm.
Here's a comparison of the throttle bores back-to-back (secondaries in middle). The primary bores are the same, but the secondaries are very different.
Carter 1-7/16" 400cfm on Left - Right is 500cfm 1-11/16" Edelbrock
Here's a comparison of the venturies back-to-back (secondaries in middle). The primary venturi on the 400 is slightly smaller, and the booster is a different shape. But here again, the bigger difference is in the secondary's primary venturi size.
Carter 1-1/4" 400cfm on Left - Right is 500cfm 1-9/16" Edelbrock
Because the Carter and Edelbrock are physically identical, installation requires nothing more than swapping carbs. All the lines and throttle linkages connected as before without modification.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-04-2019).]
Weren't the booster venturis the main difference on the 500 cfm and the 600 Edelbrocks? Holley used to make a 450 Economaster spreadbore, IIRC. No matter, you got your carb. tg
Weren't the booster venturis the main difference on the 500 cfm and the 600 Edelbrocks? Holley used to make a 450 Economaster spreadbore, IIRC.
I didn't physically compare venturis between the 500 and 600, but according to Edelbrock's chart they are the same diameter bores and venturis - perhaps a different shape venturi??
I'm pretty limited here. A Holley won't fit the engine bay, a spreadbore won't fit the manifold without an adapter which then makes it too tall below the decklid.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 12-11-2008).]
I've repaired the spark plug hole on Sunday and need 24 hours for the sealant on the insert to cure. Everything looks good and I will likely be starting the engine in the next day or two.
I have installed the 400cfm Carter 9410 Super-Quad 4-barrel carburetor (designed for GM 3.8L V6 engines). This replaces the Edelbrock 500cfm which was just too big for this 3.3L SD4 engine.
I installed a divider plate in the intake manifold. This will increase the vacuum signal to the carb by changing it from an “open plenum” to a “divided plenum” and should make low RMP throttle response crisper.
With the divider, you also require a base gasket with the divider down the center as well.
Here’s the carb installed. There’s no easy way to get a highly polished finish like the Edelbrocks (they have a 10 step process), so I painted the main body aluminum and the upper portion gloss black (basically the reverse of marine carbs). The paint will seal the pores of the aluminum so the carb won’t get stained from gas, oil and engine grime. It looks pretty good.
I have set the idle speed and mixtures and check and adjust the throttle response. The carb seems to be working well. I have a steady 1000rpm idle, seems smoother than before too. When blipping the throttle you can see the the secondary air valve open and fuel from the nozzles shooting in. I think this will be a BIG "night & day" improvement in driveability.
I think because the Edelbrock 500cfm was too big the secondaries never opened up properly AND it basically ran as a 2bbl that was too small at the upper RPM band and so the engine leaned out as the RPM went up. Shouldn't have that problem now.
I was able to get it out for a short test drive and it's quite driveable with the new Carter carb. It drove well and I could DEFINITELY feel this carburetor WAS working much better than the Edelbrock, but I won't be able to fine tune for WOT performance and such until later once all the snow is gone.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
You have done a great job rebuilding the car. Thanks for posting your build thread its very helpfull and inspirational, so that I get to work on my own car. I wish I could give you another plus.
Keep up the great work and please continue to post
I have it driveable and it feels pretty good with the new carb, but fine tuning can't be done until all the roads are clear and the weather is warmer a couple of months from now.
Official "Public Unveiling" of my Indy is coming up at World of Wheels Feb. 20-22 in Calgary. I'm curious/nervous about the response, but I know people/kids were waving (favorably, thumbs up, etc) when I drove down the street with the thing, so I think people will be "wow'd". I know virtually nobody has ever seen a Fiero Pace Car in this city, so I expect a lot of questions.
Our Club is putting in 6 cars in total, including a second all stock Indy next to mine, my 3.4L supercharged 87 GT, a blue 87 GT, burgandy 87 2M4 and red 85 GT.
I have installed the 400cfm Carter 9410 Super-Quad 4-barrel carburetor (designed for GM 3.8L V6 engines). This replaces the Edelbrock 500cfm which was just too big for this 3.3L SD4 engine.
I installed a divider plate in the intake manifold. This will increase the vacuum signal to the carb by changing it from an “open plenum” to a “divided plenum” and should make low RMP throttle response crisper.
[
Cut a little notch out of the divider plate to balance it
You have done a great job rebuilding the car. Thanks for posting your build thread its very helpfull and inspirational, so that I get to work on my own car. I wish I could give you another plus.
Keep up the great work and please continue to post
There's a head and a couple of these intakes on eBay. They'll fit a stock 2.5 Iron Duke engine.
I am bidding on both of those intakes currently for my Super Duty head.
Three things though.
1) the intakes don't fit a stock head, only a super duty head.
2) The heads don't fit a stock block without machining. The heads are setup for 1/2" head studs, whereas stock Iron Duke studs are 11mm.
3) That head is pretty much at the end of its useable life. It has .170" machined off of it already. There's no more material left to do a clean up cut on the deck surface. Its milled so far one of the bolt holes is actually protruding into the deck surface now. Aluminum castings can be welded on (unlike iron), and there are even hard aluminum filler rods used specifically for repairing the deck surfaces of cylinder heads, but it would be in the neighborhood of $1500 worth of head work to restore some deck material.
From an email I received from the guy doing my SD head:
quote
".170 is huge the head you have is only cut .100 and as far as welding the deck yes it is possible if you have a huge pocket book and they don't make them or cant find them anymore. Not really an option.
Tony- Beautifull car! You've done an excellent job on this build, I hope to get the chance to see your Indy in person some day.
Thank you very much. It's getting it's official "Public Unveiling" (since new paint) at World of Wheels this weekend. I don't think anyone up here has ever seen an Indy, and we have TWO in this show!
EDIT: This was the first time I saw my Indy "complete" with NOS Indy Wing Emblems and PONTIAC Windshield Decal (I installed them when setting up for the show)
I saw it a the show. I met and chatted with Tony for a bit. I can tell you all it is an amazing car that needs to be seen. It is with out a doubt the nicest Fiero i have seen in person or in a magazine! The Fiero display looked good with the 6 cars there also. Thanks guys!!
Seeing this car at the Calgary World of Wheels a few weeks ago really gave me a new perspective on the Indy! I've never really took note of them before, but after chatting with Tony on the final day, I must say I am impressed. This car is very clean, and now that I have seen where this car started out......all I can say is WOW!!! Tony has done an incredible job, and definately knows his stuff. Congrats on the car Tony......it's come a long way.
Awesome job and writeup! I was supposed pick this car up for Chester, but got into a wrecked by an idiot in CT and totalled my truck and trailer. It's great to see a happy ending to the story.
LOL I love this thread... What a great car and great story. I love this forum and I love the end result. To bad you were cheated by a "Dirty Rat' LOL but they get theirs in the end!!!
LOL I love this thread... What a great car and great story. I love this forum and I love the end result.
Thank you.
Once summer comes and this car has the carb setup and everything's working perfect, this car will be driven. Maybe not a daily driver to work, but definitely NOT a "trailer queen" reserved for weekend shows only. You get more looks and "thumbs up" driving this thing than anything else other than perhaps a Lambo or other high end exotic.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
Super Duty 4 engine - w/ Edelbrock valve cover, Edelbrock 4-bbl intake and carb
How well does she haul ass, anyway? I've wondered that.
Hard to say. I've gotten "used to it" so it doesn't feel fast to me anymore. It feels about the same as my 3.4L supercharged engine, but that a manual, this is an auto. Others who've ridden with me say it's "damn fast".
Idles rough - with intake valves over 2", high lift cam and huge ports, this engine is made to REV. It doesn't sound like anything else. Hard to describe.
I changed to a smaller 400cfm Carter carb from the Edelbrock 500cfm (it was just too big). The Carter seems to be jetted pretty good now and the engine responds extremely well. It drives pretty good and doesn't feel like a 4-cylinder at all. Gets up to speed pretty quick, acceleration for passing is great (unlike a stock Duke which makes more noise, but doesn't "pull"). Terrible mileage in city (likely because I'm booting it all the time ) but seems much better on the highway. The smaller gas tank of the 84 is really noticeable.
The 3.73 4-speed auto feels really good. It stays in 3rd until almost 50mph before shifting into 4th for cruising. The TCC lockup helps as it drops the rpm by about 200. I think I could adjust the TV cable to have 4th come in sooner, but I think that would lug the engine. A 5-speed manual would have been more fun
With only about 1200 miles, it isn't quite broken in yet. At least not enough for me after spending those big $$$ rebuilding it. I want to get a few more miles on it before I switch to synthetic oil and that should help with power. I had it on a dyno last year with the 500cfm Edelbrock carb and it looked like 160hp at the wheels at that time, but I think the engine is making more power with the Carter carb now.
I don't think it will set any 1/4 mile speed records at the track, but I think people will still be blown away that it's "that fast with a 4-cylinder" and that it's a World of Wheels car at the track.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-18-2010).]
I decided to convert the Indy to a manual transmission. The automatic transmission in the Indy doesn't do justice with the SD4 engine. The engine really wants to rev and a Getrag 5-speed manual transmission would give me much better control of its power.
If you just bought your $500 Fiero and wished it were a manual, you'd be better off selling it and buying another with the manual transmission. But if you already have a lot of work and money into your car, IT IS WORTH making the swap. There is a tedious amount of work involved, but it is mostly the "remove and replace" variety.
Converting to a manual requires all these parts from your donor. tranny axles shifter assembly 2 shifting cables clutch pedal assembly hydraulic clutch line master cylinder slave cylinder flywheel clutch set <---- buy new - no reason using a worn one Plastic frame with boot to cover shifter assembly
Dropping the cradle and swapping the transmissions and axles is basically staightforward, so I'm not going to cover that in detail here.
Of course, you need to change the flexplate to the correct flywheel for your engine (85-87 V6 or 88 V6, or 4-cylinder) and install your clutch set.
The hydraulic system is tedious to install. You should pull the front spare wheel tub and gut the interior (at least the driver's seat, upper steering column, and center console including "plastic skeleton"). I pulled the cluster and dash as well to see better.
The automatic pedal box is held in by the 4 bolts that hold the brake booster (plus one under the dash). The manual pedal box with the clutch will in addition have the two studs for the clutch master cylinder. The firewall will have a sheet metal plug that can be popped out for installing the master.
Remove the automatic transmission cooling lines and install the clutch line in it's place. It bolts in using the same bolts into the same locations. Maneouvering the line into place past the steering column and brake booster can be done more easily while the brake booster is unbolted from the firewall.
The clutch slave will attach to the transmission using its normal bracketry.
With the "plastic skeleton" out of the center console, it's a simple matter to remove the park/lock cable from the shifter to the steering column. I left the steering column as is and didn't bother with modifying it to add the key latch.
You can now easily remove the automatic shifter and shift cable and install the manual shifter with shift and select cables.
oh stop that man you have one hell of a sexy car also
------------------ DONE: 86gt 5 speed 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , stronger head springs, and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip , polished crank . too much to list
fierosound, absolutely beautiful work on that Indy. Your close attention to detail and your desire are what truly makes this car the best and cleanest I have ever seen. THIS is what a true restoration looks like. No detail uncovered. + from me.
Guys with Dukes - if you need a new flywheel and flywheel bolts - start looking early. There may be some searching/waiting for parts involved. It seems Dukes were mated to manual transmissions only in Fiero, Chev S10/S15 and Jeep CJ/YJ - all other Pontiac/Buick/Olds were predominately equipped with automatic transmissions.
The big "wait time" was getting the V6 Fidanza aluminum flywheel welded and redrilled for the SD4 crank (Duke pattern). Mostly time sitting on the shelf "waiting for my turn" because it didn't take long once they got to it.
The SD4 crank was also "pinned" in it's previous life as a race engine. In addition to the 6 flywheels bolts, 3 steel pins are embedded in the crank and line up with holes in the flywheel. These take the shear loads off of the flywheel bolts.
After the original holes were welded up, and both faces machined, 9 holes were drilled in the flywheel to match the crank's face (used old flexplate as template). Center hole is also larger than on a V6 and was machined to match the crank.
Stock flywheel bolts have huge low height hex heads (M10 x 1.5 x 23mm) and couldn't be found locally. I purchased ARP flange head bolts PN 134-2201 instead. These are 25mm long and need to be cut down in length to 23mm as they bottom out in the crankshaft holes otherwise. The flywheel bolt holes were countersunk for the flange on the head and work much better.
The Spec Stage 2 clutch pack was then attached. Blue Locktite is a necessity on the flywheel and pressure plate bolts (just to be safe)
Wiring harness changes from removal of transmission gear selector switch were fairly straightforward. (these are all over PFF) - shorten wires for VSS - install a new connector for backup light switch - power wire bypass to firewall connector
The rest of the assembly is straightforward. Bolt on the transmission, put the engine/tranny back on the cradle and install the drive axles. I forgot to take a picture of it all on the cradle. DOH!!
I installed a rebuild kit in the clutch master cylinder - Wagner PN F110274. In addition, I cut the pushrod and threaded it for a 5/16" thread long nut and locknuts to make it adjustable.
The rest of the install is unexciting. Here's the clutch master cylinder in the car.
The select/shifter cables clear everything reasonably well. The bracket for the shifter cable sits fairly high, but a new coolant hose has a long enough end to clear it. The slave cylinder is more easily accessible than in V6 applications - no exhaust crossover in the way!
I now have 3 pedals were I only had a brake and gas pedal before. Wiring in the clutch and cruise switches was VERY simple.
... and I installed an 84 short shifter and Getrag 5-speed shifter surround.
I changed all my bezels to brushed silver ones - to match the gauges and shifter plate. (STILL looking for a silver manual shifter surround in MINT condition)
) but seems much better on the highway. The smaller gas tank of the 84 is really noticeable.
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