quote Originally posted by FastFieros: The communications of the 2004 and newer with the PassKey 3 PLUS.... is a whole new world. Back in 2004 when I put the 3800SC with the TAP shift transmission to the 88 GT I did, I wanted to only use the PCM because HPTuners assured me that they can hack the PK3+ out. However in 4 attempts they could not. All they were doing is finding the DTC flag in the code and setting it to false. However, the OS needed more than that to turn it off. Today I have the memory location of the VTD in the 2004 PCM with PK3+. I cannot read the assembly however to know what it needed to turn off the VTD so the PCM is happy. Loyde http://www.fastfieros.com/projects

According to the service manual, this car came with the Pass-Key III system. There is no mention of PK3+; but if it's the same, it doesn't really matter.

Bill at HP Tuners guaranteed me just a couple of months ago that their software could modify the LS4 E40 ECM's OS to turn off the VATS/PK3 system. If that turns out not to be the case, then I will take it up with Bill when time comes. But I am not going to jump to any conclusions at this time.

But that might not even be a relavent issue for this swap. As mentioned before, the BCM will need to be present in this swap because of the reasons given above. And what I have been reading up on in the Service Manual about the factory remote start is that the security/theft system needs to be working properly or the remote start function may be disabled. So I have done further research and have found some PK3 bypass modules available in the auto alarm aftermarket which might be required for everything in this swap to function as desired.

http://www.bypasskit.com/

I don't consider the VATS/PK3 issue to be an issue at all in this swap. There are aftermarket ways to bypass the system outside of computer programming if it comes to that so I am not concerned.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-17-2007).]

ok.. rather then use the word 'think' I called ByPassKit.com .. had a nice conversation with John. He fully explains that their system is NOT a bypass for VTD. it is purely for a remote start situation that cannot be used to circumvent the VTD of a GM PK3+ system. He said he gets many calls a month for such a device, and they are not capable to engineer such a device.

As to Bill at HPT.. I was promised that in 2004 when I was doing the PK3+ system that hack was going to be available come time for me to try. I got 4 new updates to my software, and not a one worked. Now, in HPT defense is time. Over the last 2 years Chris at HPT has managed to write custom OS. However, this OS is for the V8 LS1 and LS2 where they sell lots of bells and whistles for that target market. That DoD ( as it is called now AFM .. active fuel management ) is going to be alot of code that is going to have to be disassembled and rewrote... I would say that if there is not a OS ready to use today, that in 2 months there is not going to be an OS still that can get around VTD in a PK3+ system. However, I have the memory locations of that code in the 04 Grand Prix GTP, and that would need to be disassembled at that location, and then matched to the same disassembly of the 2005 / 2006 code in the GXP V8 stuff. Its way more then just changing hex bytes in a hex editor. The OS will have to be custom wrote.

Then again, I could be completely wrong...

But, let me explain how VTD PK3+ works as I understand it for 2004 GTP... the key of the car has a transponder in the head. The transponder is like the cool little sercurity tabs you see on consumer goods that AutoZone Walmart and many thousands of others use today. This is a nice URL explaning it http://electronics.howstuff...plifting-device3.htm .... so, this key is read by the exciter as GM calls it, and the signal is sent to the BCM. The BCM then decides if it is the correct signal. Upon that decision, another is made based on 3 other events... however, once the BCM is happy, it sends a nice HEX code to the PCM ( VCM really ) and it becomes happy with the HEX code, and releases the injectors to start the car.

Now, once I had this nice 2004 GTP TAP shift powertrain installed to my 88 GT, I could sit there and start the engine on carb cleaner and run it until that carb cleaner can was empty. Well, what else was I going to do. I was waiting on HPT to come up with a hack, and each one was a no go. Finally, I had to study the VTD system, put the BCM in, marry the system with my Tech II and SPS software... and talk about another set of issues getting the system as whole happy so that marriage could take place...

It was alot of fun. Since then.. one other person in Florida made his attempt to install a 2005 powertrain to a Fiero, and he could not get it all running until he sent me the Key, BCM, VCM.. and I had to build a custom harness to meet the 'happy' part of the system so I could marry them all.... so he finally got all this installed to the car, and last I heard it ran and moved, but had other issues related to the actual workmanship of the install.


Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: ok.. rather then use the word 'think' I called ByPassKit.com .. had a nice conversation with John. He fully explains that their system is NOT a bypass for VTD. it is purely for a remote start situation that cannot be used to circumvent the VTD of a GM PK3+ system. He said he gets many calls a month for such a device, and they are not capable to engineer such a device. As to Bill at HPT.. I was promised that in 2004 when I was doing the PK3+ system that hack was going to be available come time for me to try. I got 4 new updates to my software, and not a one worked. Now, in HPT defense is time. Over the last 2 years Chris at HPT has managed to write custom OS. However, this OS is for the V8 LS1 and LS2 where they sell lots of bells and whistles for that target market. That DoD ( as it is called now AFM .. active fuel management ) is going to be alot of code that is going to have to be disassembled and rewrote... I would say that if there is not a OS ready to use today, that in 2 months there is not going to be an OS still that can get around VTD in a PK3+ system. However, I have the memory locations of that code in the 04 Grand Prix GTP, and that would need to be disassembled at that location, and then matched to the same disassembly of the 2005 / 2006 code in the GXP V8 stuff. Its way more then just changing hex bytes in a hex editor. The OS will have to be custom wrote. Then again, I could be completely wrong... But, let me explain how VTD PK3+ works as I understand it for 2004 GTP... the key of the car has a transponder in the head. The transponder is like the cool little sercurity tabs you see on consumer goods that AutoZone Walmart and many thousands of others use today. This is a nice URL explaning it http://electronics.howstuff...plifting-device3.htm .... so, this key is read by the exciter as GM calls it, and the signal is sent to the BCM. The BCM then decides if it is the correct signal. Upon that decision, another is made based on 3 other events... however, once the BCM is happy, it sends a nice HEX code to the PCM ( VCM really ) and it becomes happy with the HEX code, and releases the injectors to start the car. Now, once I had this nice 2004 GTP TAP shift powertrain installed to my 88 GT, I could sit there and start the engine on carb cleaner and run it until that carb cleaner can was empty. Well, what else was I going to do. I was waiting on HPT to come up with a hack, and each one was a no go. Finally, I had to study the VTD system, put the BCM in, marry the system with my Tech II and SPS software... and talk about another set of issues getting the system as whole happy so that marriage could take place... It was alot of fun. Since then.. one other person in Florida made his attempt to install a 2005 powertrain to a Fiero, and he could not get it all running until he sent me the Key, BCM, VCM.. and I had to build a custom harness to meet the 'happy' part of the system so I could marry them all.... so he finally got all this installed to the car, and last I heard it ran and moved, but had other issues related to the actual workmanship of the install. Loyde

1) This is a swap using a LS4 out of a 2005 Grand Prix GXP, not a swap using a 3800 out of a 2004 Grand Prix.

2) Concerning the 2004 Grand Prix 3800 PCM you have experience with... I fail to see the connection between it and what I am working with (OS) in the 2005 GXP LS4 ECM and TCM. I don't think they are remotely the same; so even if you knew the location of the VTD switch in the '04 3800's PCM programming I don't see how that is going to help us with the '05 LS4 ECM. But even if you did, how is this going to help me with the BCM and getting it satisfied so I can use the remote start functions?

3) It doesn't look like you have talked to Bill at HP Tuners in a while about the VTD issue. You can rest assurred I had a lengthy conversation about this, pertaining specifically to the LS4 ECM programming, and made sure the HP Tuners software was going to fulfill my needs before I bought support for it. He assurred me it would. Now if it doesn't, then I will take that issue up with Bill and only Bill. So rather than you making an assumption on this issue, why don't you contact HP Tuners yourself and discuss the subject with them?

4) I used bypasskit.com as an example of where you could get a PK3 bypass module. I'm sure there are MANY other manufacturers who have similar devices available. But I have to say, knowing your past, I'm not surprised you jumped on the phone with them to see if you could find a way to dispute what I have said here in this thread. Now I'm sure what they told you was standard company policy. As with any alarm bypass manufacturer, they are only concerned with making items that work in the original car they are intended to be used in. So I can't say I'm surprised you got the answer from them you did. If I made a widget for a specific carline, I'm not going to go around and say it will work in others until I have verfied it would work myself. Having said that; here is a short list of the devices bypasskit lists that are available for the PK3 system:

quote Data Transponder Interface: Override 1st, 2nd & 3rd Generation OEM PASSKEY3 Transponder Immobilizer Via Data (No Key Required). Number of keys required to program kit: 1 Number of keys required for kit operation: 0

quote Data Bus Interface: Data override of GM Passkey 3 Transponder Immobilizer & GM Passlock 2 Immobilizer via class 2 data bus. No Key Required. The GMBP is a "3 in 1" bypass solution which is compatible with the 1st generation GM Passkey used on the '99 Transport, Venture & Silhouette and the more common 2nd gen. Passkey 3 as well as the Passlock II resistor code immobilizer. Number of keys required to program kit: 1 Number of keys required for kit operation: 0

quote XK06 programmable Immobilizer Data Override Interface preloaded with upgradeable firmware (PKG7). Compatible with GM Hybrid Passlock Passkey immobilizer systems like that used on 2004-07 Chevrolet Malibu's. XK06 temporarily overrides the factory immobilizer when remote starting while maintaining the integrity of the manufacturer's anti-theft system when remote start is not in use. *Programmable firmwares available that cover all GM Passlock, Passkey, PASSkey3+, and ION type immobilizers. Number of keys required to program kit: 1 Number of keys required for kit operation: 0

The above examples I gave are just a few devices offered by just this one company. According to the information given by the bypasskit.com website, the above devices will OPERATE without a key being present, as long as you have one to program it with; which isn't a problem. I have access to another vehicle with a functioning PK3 system which I can use to program this kit if needed.

In any case, the function of the above devices is to send the correct password to the BCM which will allow the engine to start and run without a key being present in the ignition. So if this is true, then this device should be able to be wired/installed in such a way that it will "think" that we are always using a remote start regardless if there is a remote start module installed in the car or not. It's all a matter of manipulating the wiring. The key item here is will these modules function without a key being present? The manufacturer says they will, and that's all I need. If for some reason I cannot use the modules from bypasskit.com, I will seek out a company that can supply me with such a module.

Tell you what, Loyde. Why don't you just worry about your own customers and let me work on this swap on my own. Regardless of what I come up with, I will be sure to post the results here. I have to question why you feel the need to jump into my swap threads and involve yourself in my projects. Do I do that to you? I can assure you that I will be able to make this swap work without your help; which is to say your help and advice in this thread are not needed and not desired. If you wish to make a comment about PK3 operation, you can start your own thread about it and not involve me.

To the rest of the members of this forum: I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh here towards Loyde, but he has a reputation of jumping into threads for the sole purpose of bashing his competition. And the fact that he went out of his way to call up some company that I used as an example in an appearant effort to refute the facts posted by me make me suspect there is a hidden agenda here; one I don't care to be any part of. This thread is about the LS4 DoD 4T65-E swap I am doing to a Fiero. Not Loyde's, or anyone else's swap; which is to say the way I do things are not subject to debate on any internet message forum. If he or anyone else wants to do their own LS4 swap, then they can do it their way.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The above examples I gave are just a few devices offered by just this one company. According to the information given by the bypasskit.com website, the above devices will OPERATE without a key being present, as long as you have one to program it with; which isn't a problem. I have access to another vehicle with a functioning PK3 system which I can use to program this kit if needed. In any case, the function of the above devices is to send the correct password to the BCM which will allow the engine to start and run without a key being present in the ignition. So if this is true, then this device should be able to be wired/installed in such a way that it will "think" that we are always using a remote start regardless if there is a remote start module installed in the car or not. It's all a matter of manipulating the wiring. The key item here is will these modules function without a key being present? The manufacturer says they will, and that's all I need. If for some reason I cannot use the modules from bypasskit.com, I will seek out a company that can supply me with such a module. Tell you what, Loyde. Why don't you just worry about your own customers and let me work on this swap on my own. Regardless of what I come up with, I will be sure to post the results here. I have to question why you feel the need to jump into my swap threads and involve yourself in my projects. Do I do that to you? I can assure you that I will be able to make this swap work without your help; which is to say your help and advice in this thread are not needed and not desired. If you wish to make a comment about PK3 operation, you can start your own thread about it and not involve me. To the rest of the members of this forum: I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh here towards Loyde, but he has a reputation of jumping into threads for the sole purpose of bashing his competition. And the fact that he went out of his way to call up some company that I used as an example in an appearant effort to refute the facts posted by me make me suspect there is a hidden agenda here; one I don't care to be any part of. This thread is about the LS4 DoD 4T65-E swap I am doing to a Fiero. Not Loyde's, or anyone else's swap; which is to say the way I do things are not subject to debate on any internet message forum. If he or anyone else wants to do their own LS4 swap, then they can do it their way. -ryan

Wow.. hidden agenda.. I was called on the phone by 2 people regarding this thread and was asked to input my thoughts and knowledge... This revolves around PK3+, and that is shared with the 2004 3800 Series 3 powertrain, because it was the one product line to get PK3+ that I have worked directly with... PK3 is completely different from PK3+.

To the nice PFF people that called... this is why I didnt want to share / educate this thread. I have a hidden agenda..

And vendor bashing? Come on... I did not attack you in any way. I was trying to have a civil conversation.

Loyde
Look me up at http://www.fastfieros.com/projects

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Wow.. hidden agenda.. I was called on the phone by 2 people regarding this thread and was asked to input my thoughts and knowledge... This revolves around PK3+, and that is shared with the 2004 3800 Series 3 powertrain, because it was the one product line to get PK3+ that I have worked directly with... PK3 is completely different from PK3+. To the nice PFF people that called... this is why I didnt want to share / educate this thread. I have a hidden agenda.. And vendor bashing? Come on... I did not attack you in any way. I was trying to have a civil conversation. Loyde Look me up at http://www.fastfieros.com/projects

Yea ok. This coming from the guy that goes around bragging about how he likes to take customers from other swappers/vendors. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't your first post in this thread in response to a question somebody (darkhorizon) asked who you have flamed a lot on this forum? Seems strange to me you would "volunteer" your help to someone you have a problem with. Sorry, but I don't have time for your games and hidden motives. If you want to "contribute" your knowledge about the PK3+ system for the 2004 3800 PCM to this forum, you can just as easily start your own thread about it and keep your nose out of mine.

-ryan

Guys, come on now, lets not get out of hand. This is a GOOD build thread, it doesnt belong in the trashcan...once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-wan's apprentice...


that was for all the star wars geeks out there

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Yea ok. This coming from the guy that goes around bragging about how he likes to take customers from other swappers/vendors. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't your first post in this thread in response to a question somebody (darkhorizon) asked who you have flamed a lot on this forum? Seems strange to me you would "volunteer" your help to someone you have a problem with. Sorry, but I don't have time for your games and hidden motives. If you want to "contribute" your knowledge about the PK3+ system for the 2004 3800 PCM to this forum, you can just as easily start your own thread about it and keep your nose out of mine. -ryan

Ron called me about 3 times over this issue of a 5.3 and what is going to work with what. Then another guy called about 2 weeks ago, and there was the same question about the VTD PK3+. I was asked to contribute and I indicated I would not most likely be posting about it. However, I thought it would be nice that you and I might talk about this VTD PK3+ and how it actually works / can be defeated. You are not the only person on PFF that is putting a 5.3 in a Fiero today. There are about 5 luckers at least that call me about this and always reference to '' I saw it on the internet where you can put a 5.3 DoD engine in a Fiero " ... Gee, I wonder where they saw that. I finally told Ron lets just get this out between us that it is PFF where he is reading this stuff, and I have no clue if Ryan is up on PK3+ and knows if it is going to work or not. So, I see Ron now making a few posts about it. You know what... Him and the other 4 or 5 people would like a solution BEFORE they actually start because they dont want it to be a dead end project. I ASSURED them it is not a dead end project. I have accomplished PK3+ in a hybrid install, so I know 100% it can work. Time and money can always resolve issues. So, 100% I know you will get the install done and running. You just might be using HPT however to defeat the VCM on VTD.

Now as to what Bill at HPT will answer if you email to him....

Loyde,

Yeah its covered more in depth here http://www.hptuners.com/for...owthread.php?t=12399

William Henn
HP Tuners LLC.
www.hptuners.com

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wow, I see this in that thread...

To disable VATS you must do the following:

1. Set the VATS value to "PWM"
2. Set DTC P1626 to "3 - No Error Reported"
3. Set DTC P1629 to "3 - No Error Reported"

If you have problems please email your file to support.

Note: For v2.1.18 and earlier some vehicles may show the VATS type as the opposite than installed. If you see this try the other setting and please email your file to support so it can be fixed (so far i think i have fixed them all).

Chris...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now this is from Chris on May 25th 2007... Amazing it was just after I emailed to them on May 5th about this... now what happen on May 10th, the customer sent me his PCM. He has HPTuners MPVI. He applied the 'fix' noted above and it did not work. So, I fixed it and he is running today. I said running... not sure it is actually driving however..

I then had another conversation with a GM engineer that indicated that PK3+ was an OS level implementation and not a CAL level implement. So Chris and I even discussed this in 2005 that the OS level was going to need to be change perhaps, but they were not prepared to do this. What is noted above is purely a CAL level change. IF it was OS level, they would indicate that you must do a FULL write to the file for the changes to take effect.

Like I said Ryan, this is not just about you… its about the lurkers that want to do this install and don’t want to start unless something is known for sure 100% and not just hear say. People want to buy engines and transmissions for Christmas maybe. Its called having a project plan. Like I said, you will be successful at this swap. I know the solution 100%, so I know you can figure it out also.

For those interested however in another solution to this discussion…. There is a MEFI5 coming out Feb 2008. I have spoke with the hardware engineer on this and it is going to be very programmable. It will even be able to set shift logic to any configuration making it capable of running up to the 4T and 4L series transmissions. They are almost sure it will run the new 6T75 which I have already started on getting the wiring and other items together for this install to a hybrid installation. Just gathering parts here however, not trying to do any mating yet.. Oh, the 6T75 has a M6 pattern on it.

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-17-2007).]

Nice EDIT Loyde; but you were too late.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: you know Ryan, your ego is just too big even for a couple of certifications in automotive. Loyde

You know this is the very thing I have been talking about. If this guy (Loyde) feels as though someone is a threat to him (competing business, vendor, etc); he starts the personal attacks and misinformation. Well I am tired of it. I'm not in the mood for his games and I don't have time for them. Seems to me he (Loyde) should be worrying about serving his customers who have paid him to do a job ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/063942.html ) more so than trying to stick his nose into other people's swaps just so he can make a name for himself, or claim credit for something, etc.

Loyde, for the last time: YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN THIS THREAD. GO AWAY.

Ryan,
I am STEADFAST. UNWAVERED and UNDETERRED in my 100% confidence in your mastery and skill. You need not expend any of your energy or time in defending your craftsmanship to anyone. I've pushed you and challenged you on many levels, and each time you provided me with the facts, what's possible, what affordable, and what's not. Whenever you met an obstacle or hurdle, you quickly presented 2 or 3 options by which to overcome and included me in the process.

As you now can appreciate, I do as much homework and research on a topic as anyone on this site...if not more. While I am not a trained engineer or mechanic, I know when someone has a clue and treats you with respect, and I know when someone is making it up as they go, or treats you like a potential mortgage payment, instead of a valued customer. I reviewed and discussed my swap dreams at length with at LEAST 6 serious swappers in this game. I won't mention names, as my intent is not to compare or call other folks out for not meeting my specific criteria, principles, and values. What I will say publically, and loudly, is that no one and I mean NO ONE had the strength of track record or level of satisfaction from the process and resulting product than you. I spoke to no less than 5 recipients of your last swaps and they talked of you like you were Chip Foose or Carroll Shelby! Now, there are many great people in this game. But based on my requirements, you were the absolute best choice for me. And on this particular thread...that's all that should matter.

It's very clear that you and Lloyde have "history" and it sounds like you've both been down this path with each other before. Just remember that in this cyber world of digital tracking and social networking, the truth is never but a few search clicks away. One's reputation and 'motives' are easily revealed by anyone who's interested in figuring it out. All they have to do is google a few times.

I suggest that we keep what's in the past, in the past. I know of you as a stand up business and family man with ridiculous levels of accolades from this and other Fiero communities. Let others defend you. Let your work speak for itself. This would be the exact same advice I'd give Lloyde. He is probably the best choice for someone else or some other project. I'd rather put cars to test on the track and who's still driving 2-3 years from now. Until then, there's not alot of value in opinions on threads...other than someone else's perspective.

Now...back to my dream project!!

[This message has been edited by blkcofy (edited 12-17-2007).]

I was just going to stay put of this thread since it took an ugly turn, but even though I will never do this swap I am very interesed in seeing it done purely from the stand point of the obsticals you have faced and the methods you used to work trough or around them. From our conversation when I stopped by I can say Ryan you are better then this petty bickering being done here, and honestly I do not see any reason you should have to explain in great detail that this is not a V6 3800 swap, but the swap that you intended to do for a customer and share with the rest of us. The knowledge you have put in these pages is priceless as far as I am concerned, and the can be used in other swaps even if they would be something that is not DoD, but even a carberated car. I find this thread more of a way to think outside the box when taking on a complex swap of adding a drivetrain that did not originaly come with a car and useing your skills to overcome what would seem like an impossible task and making it work.

Thanks for the kind words, blkcofy and OH10fiero. I just want to make it clear I am focused on the swap at hand; and this thread was, is, and will be all about the LS4 DoD 4T65-E TAPShift swap I am doing for blkcofy. I apologize for the brief history lesson, and I'm sorry it took this thread down a path I never intended it go. While I welcome genuine questions and difference of opinions pertaining to the things I am doing in this swap, I think it's important that everyone reading this thread understand why I refuse to have anything to do with certain members of this forum. There is a reason why and that was the reason for my last few posts -- just so everyone understands where I am coming from. Yes it is true that topic could have been discussed in another thread and been kept completely out of this one, but some things are simply out of my control.

The goal of this thread is to show the Fiero community the way I'm doing this swap. Will this swap become the next DIY'er's dream swap? I don't have the answer to that yet. With the 3800 being discontinued by GM a new powerful alternative needs to be found. And it would be premature for me (or anyone else) to jump to any conclusions about things that haven't even been attempted yet. This swap is the first one like it as far as I am aware. Sure other people have installed V8's in a Fiero and at least one or two others are currently working on a swap using the LS4; but I am not aware of any who are doing this swap using the LS4 and 4T65-E, keeping the DoD and TAPShift functions as well as installing the BCM and DIC all into the same car. So there is a lot of new ground being covered here and my intention is to freely share my findings and solutions with the community as a whole in the hopes it can help others with their swaps. You can trust that I did my research and homework long before I agreed to take on this project. I would not have attempted this swap if I doubted I could make it work outside of its native environment. There is still a lot of work to do so I have to get back to it. Stay tuned...

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

-ryan

quote . I don't agree with darkhorizon on a lot of things

now here I thought it was only a few things......Maybe a PM could help clear up the stuff other than our NA/SC power handleing debate..

Otherwise, the whole PK3 debate here is sorta pointless, we all know there has been no easy fix for this implemented yet, so we shall see how it turns out in the end.

I still wouldnt mind my question answered directly if it is possible to do this swap without a BCM or possibly for the manual heads out there a TCM existing? I dont forsee it being that hard to make a Class2 simulator of some sort that will send a start signal to the PCM and pretend like the bcm sent it. It might be hard to get going at first, but I doubt you would have a problem selling it eventually..

edit for spelling

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 12-18-2007).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: now here I thought it was only a few things......Maybe a PM could help clear up the stuff other than our NA/SC power handleing debate.. Otherwise, the whole PK3 debate here is sorta pointless, we all know there has been no easy fix for this implemented yet, so we shall see how it turns out in the end. I still wouldnt mind my question answered directly if it is possible to do this swap without a BCM or possibly for the manual heads out there a TCM existing? I dont forsee it being that hard to make a Class2 simulator of some sort that will send a start signal to the PCM and pretend like the bcm sent it. It might be hard to get going at first, but I doubt you would have a problem selling it eventually.. edit for spelling

The TCM (transmission control module) is responsible for reading the VSS sensor's output and then sending the vehicle speed signal to the ECM (engine control module) via the GM LAN data bus. In turn, the ECM sends out the VSS signal via 1 wire to other devices in the car that need it (in the Grand Prix GXP it was the radio); other devices that need to see a VSS signal get it via the Class 2 data circuit coming from the ECM. The TCM also might be vital because it gets the GM LAN data bus signal from the ECM and then sends it off to the Diagnostic Connector (DLC). Don't know if the TCM could be removed from the loop and still have the GM LAN communications function normally or not because I haven't tried it yet.

So you might have two problems here if you don't hook the TCM up to the ECM. 1) GM LAN communications between the ECM and the DLC may not exist. 2) If the ECM doesn't see a speed signal, there is no way you will ever be able to get the cruise control to work because those functions are handled directly thru the ECM as it controls the electronic throttle control (ETC) system.

The good news is there is tuning support out there for this platform. So even if you were going to use a manual trans you could just disable all of the related trouble codes in the TCM's programming and just install it with minimal wiring for what it is needed for anyway. But then the question needs to be asked; why even use this ECM/TCM combo at all? There are other vehicles out there (rear-drive) that use the 5.3L DoD engine; maybe one of their computers would be better capable of meeting your needs for a 5.3 DoD manual trans swap? I haven't looked into it myself yet but it might be worth researching.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-18-2007).]

I think I would like to argue about this a bit more than pcms..

this guy is seeing 200 extra WHP with just a turbo bolted on, yawzaz.
http://www.clubgp.com/newfo...&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Scott, Ryan ruined his own thread with his attacks on me... Right now there is Steven, Ron, Fred sitting on the outside looking in at a 5.3 project. They wanted to know what is VTD disable possiblities since that is the subject at hand. While I can only speak from a BCM standpoint in a 3800 S3 project, it is all related to PassKey 3+. Ryan will not need to disable the PK3+ since he is wanting all the add on's like remote unlock and remote start. However, for people like the above mentioned 3, they dont want to run BCM's, then you were inquiring to the TCM being left out for manual applications. Ryan made reference to HPTuners being able to disable this, but I know the above mentioned method of disable was tried in May 07, and it did not work.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Scott, Ryan ruined his own thread with his attacks on me...

No, you ruined this thread by sticking your nose into it making personal attacks against me as well as making unfounded statements about my abilities and resources for making this swap work. In the past you have done this in an attempt to raise doubts about my abilities in the minds of my future/potential customers for the ultimate goal of getting them to go to you to have the work done, instead of me. When you were successful at doing this, you bragged to me about how you "stole my customers". I have a copy of these posts you made that prove it.

I HOPE I'M WRONG in this case; but your track record is quite representative of your true motives.

quote Right now there is Steven, Ron, Fred sitting on the outside looking in at a 5.3 project. They wanted to know what is VTD disable possiblities since that is the subject at hand. While I can only speak from a BCM standpoint in a 3800 S3 project, it is all related to PassKey 3+. Ryan will not need to disable the PK3+ since he is wanting all the add on's like remote unlock and remote start. However, for people like the above mentioned 3, they dont want to run BCM's, then you were inquiring to the TCM being left out for manual applications. Ryan made reference to HPTuners being able to disable this, but I know the above mentioned method of disable was tried in May 07, and it did not work. Loyde

This is NOT the only LS4 swap I have scheduled. There are others who want me to do this swap for them and not all of them want to have the BCM installed. That is the reason why I am going to see if I can get this thing running without the BCM being present; hence the need for the HP Tuners software to work as advertised. Perhaps you are not aware of it, but there have been new releases of the HP Tuners core software since May of this year; I currently have the latest version (2.2.0) which was released in SEPTEMBER and features an OS Patch for the VATS system. Is it going to work? I don't know that yet because the swap isn't done and I haven't tried it. From the sounds of it, YOU HAVEN'T TRIED IT EITHER. So I don't know how you can keep making statements about how it isn't going to work if, you, yourself haven't even tried it on an LS4 E40 ECM yet. As I have mentioned countless times in this thread, I will make it known if the HP Tuners software is able to disable the VATS; and if not, what action is needed to bypass the system so it will work outside of the natvie GXP environment. If it turns out the HP Tuners software cannot disable the VATS system, then I will have to look into other tuning options; such as EFI Live.

But there's no reason to jump to conclusions now about what can and cannot be done until it is tried. And the whole point I have been trying to make is: just because older software YOU were using with a 3800 PCM didn't work; doesn't mean newer software isn't going to work with this LS4's E40 ECM. So rather than make assumptions about things you haven't even tried yet, I suggest you wait and see what comes out of this project -- or try it yourself. Either way, there's no reason for your 3800 PK3+ discussion to be in this thread. Again, you can just as easily start your own thread about it instead of inserting yourself into mine.

Basically what I am trying to say is I would appreciate it if you would just go away, Loyde; and let this thread get back on-topic.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: This is NOT the only LS4 swap I have scheduled. There are others who want me to do this swap for them and not all of them want to have the BCM installed. That is the reason why I am going to see if I can get this thing running without the BCM being present; hence the need for the HP Tuners software to work as advertised. Perhaps you are not aware of it, but there have been new releases of the HP Tuners core software since May of this year; I currently have the latest version (2.2.0) which was released in SEPTEMBER and features an OS Patch for the VATS system. Is it going to work? I don't know that yet because the swap isn't done and I haven't tried it. From the sounds of it, YOU HAVEN'T TRIED IT EITHER. So I don't know how you can keep making statements about how it isn't going to work if, you, yourself haven't even tried it on an LS4 E40 ECM yet. As I have mentioned countless times in this thread, I will make it known if the HP Tuners software is able to disable the VATS; and if not, what action is needed to bypass the system so it will work outside of the natvie GXP environment. If it turns out the HP Tuners software cannot disable the VATS system, then I will have to look into other tuning options; such as EFI Live. But there's no reason to jump to conclusions now about what can and cannot be done until it is tried. And the whole point I have been trying to make is: just because older software YOU were using with a 3800 PCM didn't work; doesn't mean newer software isn't going to work with this LS4's E40 ECM. So rather than make assumptions about things you haven't even tried yet, I suggest you wait and see what comes out of this project -- or try it yourself. Either way, there's no reason for your 3800 PK3+ discussion to be in this thread. Again, you can just as easily start your own thread about it instead of inserting yourself into mine. Basically what I am trying to say is I would appreciate it if you would just go away, Loyde; and let this thread get back on-topic. -ryan

WTF do you need help with?
PK III?
PK III+?

You do know that GM uses 3 LAN types and Class II on newer cars
They run Low Speed and High Speed GMLAN on cars starting in 04. Medium Speed GMLAN is new for 09 car.

I have a lot of experience with PK3. I keep Class II bypass modules in stock.

I will send you anm email.

[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 12-19-2007).]

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: I think the file is toooooo big.

Got the file; thanks.

According to the service manual, this system uses the High Speed GM LAN data link and the Low Speed Class 2 data link as described in the article below...

quote Data Link Communications Description and Operation Circuit Description There are 2 different communication networks on this vehicle: The class 2 network and the GMLAN network. The class 2 serial data circuit is the low speed link, and the GMLAN serial data circuit is the high speed link. Modules that need real time communications are attached to the high speed network. The engine control module (ECM) is the gateway between the networks. The purpose of the gateway is to transfer information from one network to another. GMLAN Circuit Description The data link connector (DLC) allows a scan tool to communicate with the GMLAN serial data circuit. On this vehicle, only GMLAN high speed is used. That means that the serial data is transmitted on 2 wires at an average of 500 Kbps. The high speed dual wire GMLAN is a differential bus. That means that 2 bus lines, GMLAN high and GMLAN low are driven to opposite extremes from a rest or idle level. The idle level which is approximately 2.5 volts is considered a recessive transmitted data and is interpreted as a logic 1. Driving the lines to their extremes means adding 1 volt to GMLAN high wire and subtracting 1 volt from GMLAN low wire. This dominant state is interpreted as a logic 0. GMLAN network management supports selective start up and is based on virtual networks. A virtual network is a collection of signals started in response to a vehicle event. The starting of a virtual network signifies that a particular aspect of the vehicle's functionality has been requested. A virtual network is supported by virtual devices which represent a collection of signals owned by a single physical device. So, any physical device can have one or more virtual devices. The signal supervision is the process of determining whether an expected signal is being received or not. Failsofting is the ability to substitute a signal with a default value or a default algorithm, in the absence of a valid signal. Some messages are also interpreted as a heartbeat of a virtual device. If such a signal is lost, the application will set a no communication code against the respective virtual device. This code is mapped on the Tech 2 screen as a code against the physical device. Note that a loss of serial data DTC does not normally represent a failure of the module that set it. Class 2 Circuit Description The data link connector (DLC) allows a scan tool to communicate with the class 2 serial data line. The serial data line is the means by which the microprocessor-controlled modules that are connected to it communicate with each other. Once the scan tool is connected to the class 2 serial data line through the DLC, the scan tool can be used to monitor each module for diagnostic purposes and to check for diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). Class 2 serial data is transmitted on a single wire at an average of 10.4 Kbps. The bus is active at 7 volts nominal and inactive at ground potential. When the ignition switch is in RUN, each module communicating on the class 2 serial data line sends a state of health (SOH) message every 2 seconds to ensure that the module is operating properly. When a module stops communicating on the class 2 serial data line, for example, if the module loses power or ground, the SOH message it normally sends on the data line every 2 seconds disappears. Other modules on the class 2 serial data line, which expect to receive that SOH message, detect its absence; those modules in turn set an internal DTC associated with the loss of SOH of the non-communicating module. The DTC is unique to the module which is not communicating, for example, when the body control module (BCM) SOH message disappears, several modules set DTC U1064. Note that a loss of serial data DTC does not normally represent a failure of the module that set it. Data Link Connector (DLC) The data link connector (DLC) is a standardized 16 cavity connector. Connector design and location is dictated by an industry wide standard, and is required to provide the following: • Scan tool power battery positive voltage at terminal 16 • Scan tool power ground at terminal 4 • Common signal ground at terminal 5 • Class 2 signal at terminal 2 • GMLAN high circuit at terminal 6 • GMLAN low circuit at terminal 14 GMLAN Serial Data Line The GMLAN serial data communications circuit used on this vehicle is in a linear topology. The following modules are connected to the link, in order from the data link connector (DLC) to the end of the linear configuration: The following modules communicate on the GMLAN serial data circuit: • The transmission control module (TCM), (LS4) 5.3L V8 • The engine control module (ECM), (LS4) 5.3L V8 Class 2 Serial Data Link The class 2 serial data link allows the following modules to communicate and share data with each other: • Body control module (BCM) • Digital radio receiver (DRR) (U2K) • Drivers information center (DIC) • Electronic brake control module (EBCM) • Instrument panel cluster (IPC) • Heads up display (HUD) (UV6) • HVAC module (CJ8), (C67) • Powertrain control module (PCM) (L32), (L26) • Radio • Inflatable restraint sensing and diagnostic module (SDM) • Vehicle control interface module (VCIM) (UE1) The class 2 serial data link allows a scan tool to communicate with the above modules for diagnostic and testing purposes.

Also according to the service manual, this vehicle has the Pass-Key III system; as described in the artcile below...

quote Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system functions are provided by the body control module (BCM). When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the BCM supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit. The BCM then compares this value to a value stored in memory, learned key code. If the value is correct the BCM sends the fuel continue password via the serial data circuit to the powertrain control module (PCM). If the transponders value is incorrect the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit. The components of the VTD system are as follows: Body control module (BCM) Theft deterrent exciter module Powertrain control module (PCM) Ignition key (Transponder) Ignition lock cylinder Security indicator Body Control Module (BCM) When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the body control module (BCM) supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit. The BCM then compares this value to a value stored in memory, learned key code. The BCM then performs one of the following functions: If the transponder value is correct, the BCM will send the fuel continue password to the powertrain control module (PCM) via the serial data circuit. If the transponders value is incorrect the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit. If the BCM is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value for one second due to a damaged or missing pellet or a damaged theft deterrent exciter module, the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit. The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system uses the following inputs, battery voltage, ignition switched voltage, security system sensor signal and ground circuit. The VTD system uses the following outputs, security system sensor supply voltage and password exchange with the PCM, fuel continue/disable via the serial data circuit. Important On some vehicles, if the VTD system is unable to read the ignition key transponder value after the vehicle has started, the VTD system will consider itself malfunctioning. The VTD system will enter a fail enable state and will command the driver information center (DIC) to display the service theft - VTD fail enable message. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the VTD system is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the VTD system will remain fail enable until it is able to read a learned ignition key transponder value. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines. Theft Deterrent Exciter Module When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the body control module (BCM) supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit. The theft deterrent exciter module uses the following inputs, security system sensor supply voltage and ground circuit. The theft deterrent exciter module uses the following outputs, security system sensor signal. Powertrain Control Module (PCM) The powertrain control module (PCM) verifies that the password received from the body control module (BCM) via the serial data circuit is correct. The PCM can learn only one fuel continue password. If the fuel continue password is correct, the PCM enables the starting and fuel delivery systems. The PCM disables the starting and fuel delivery systems if any of the following conditions occur: The fuel continue password is incorrect. The fuel disable password is sent by the BCM. No passwords are received - there is no communication with the BCM. The PCM uses the following input, password exchange with the BCM, fuel continue/disable via the serial data circuit. Important On some vehicles, if the PCM is unable to communicate with the VTD system after the vehicle has started, the PCM will consider the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system to be malfunctioning. The PCM will enter a fail enable state and will command the driver information center (DIC) to display the service theft - VTD fail enable message. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the PCM will remain fail enable until communications with the VTD system has been restored. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines. The Ignition Key (Transponder) The ignition key for passkey III (PK3) equipped vehicles is a typical looking ignition key with a transponder located in the plastic head of the key. The transponder value is fixed and unable to be changed. The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system uses the ignition key transponder value to determine if a valid ignition key is being used to start the vehicle. There are approximately three trillion possible transponder values. There are no visible electrical contacts. The keys may be identified by the letters PK3 stamped into the steel shank of the key. The VTD systems use the following types of ignition keys: Master Keys Master keys have a black plastic head for full access operation of the vehicle. Master keys may perform the following functions: Start the vehicle. Lock/unlock all of the door locks. Lock/unlock all of the storage compartments. Valet Keys Important Valet keys are NOT standard equipment on all GM vehicle lines. Valet keys have a gray plastic head and are for restricted operation of the vehicle. Valet keys may perform the following functions: Start the vehicle. Lock/unlock all of the door locks. Ignition Lock Cylinder The ignition lock cylinder performs all of the functions of a lock cylinder on a non passkey III equipped vehicle. The ignition lock cylinder for vehicles with PK3 may be located on the steering column or on the instrument panel. In either location the exciter coils surround the ignition lock cylinder such that they are very close to the head of the key which contains the transponder pellet. If an ignition lock cylinder is replaced, the new ignition lock cylinder must be coded to match the mechanical coding of the PK3 keys. When replacing an ignition lock cylinder, and new PK3 keys are required, the new keys must be learned by the BCM. Refer to Programming Theft Deterrent System Components . Security Message Operation Theft System Not Programmed The body control module (BCM) or powertrain control module (PCM) will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Theft System Not Programmed when either the BCM or PCM are in the vehicle theft deterrent learn mode. Service Theft System The PCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Service Theft System when the PCM has lost communication with the BCM after the vehicle has been started. The BCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Service Theft System when the BCM is unable to read the key transponder value after the vehicle has started. Starting Disabled Due To Theft System The BCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Starting Disabled Due To Theft System when the BCM has either received no key transponder value or the incorrect key transponder value.

AJ, based on the information given by the service manual for this vehicle including wiring diagrams, I can tell you the PK3 system is directly hooked to the BCM. The only data connection between the BCM and ECM is the Class 2 data bus which is low speed. So the "fuel enable" password must be sent along the Class 2 serial data line. Which means one of your bypass modules might work.

-ryan

So basically I need to wait till somebody else does this swap before I see any more good info?
The flame war stuff sux. Why cant people offer there two cents and move on. Why does other peoples swaps burn some people so bad they cant stay out of arguing?
Even I can take a hint, and step back if the author of a thread don't want me arguing? Heck, I would just start my own thread if I felt so strong about some thing?
Thanks to anyone that offers good info. But we can do without the bickering. Let people make the mistakes on there own if they don't listen to good reason.

------------------

A little history

UART Serial Data
Two methods of data transmission are used. One method involves a universally asynchronous receiving/transmitting (UART) protocol. UART is an interfacing device that allows the on board computer to send and receive serial data. Serial data refers to information which is transferred in a linear fashion, over a single line, one bit at a time. A data bus describes the electronic pathway through which serial data travels. The UART receives data in a serial format, converts the data to parallel format, and places them on the data bus which is recognizable to the on board computer. This method had been the common strategy for establishing a communication link between the on board control module and the off board monitor/scanner since 1981. UART is now used to communicate between certain modules within the vehicle.

Class 2 Serial Data = 12Kb/s
U.S. Federal regulations require that all automobile manufacturers establish a common communications system. This Shelby vehicle utilizes the Class 2 communications system. Each bit of information can have one of two lengths: long or short. This allows vehicle wiring to be reduced by the transmission and reception of multiple signals over a single wire. The messages carried on Class 2 data streams are also prioritized. In other words, if two messages attempt to establish communications on the data line at the same time, only the message with higher priority will continue. The device with the lower priority message must wait. The most significant result of this regulation is that it provides scan tool manufacturers with the capability of accessing data from any make or model vehicle sold in the United States.

THIS IS ON NEWER THAN 04 CARS

Circuit Description
The communication among control modules is performed primarily through the GMLAN high speed serial data circuit and the GMLAN low speed serial data circuits. The modules that need real time communication are attached to the high speed GMLAN network. The body control module (BCM) is the serial data gateway between the networks. The purpose of the gateway is to translate serial data messages between the GMLAN high speed buss and the GMLAN low speed buss. The Local Interconnect Network (LIN) is another serial data communication network used on this vehicle which is dedicated to the door/power windows subsystem. Below are more detailed descriptions of the individual networks. The gateway will interact with each network according to that network's transmission protocol. Refer to Body Control System Description and Operation for more information about the gateway.

GMLAN High Speed Circuit Description
The data link connector (DLC) allows a scan tool to communicate with the high speed GMLAN serial data circuit. The serial data is transmitted on two twisted wires that allow speed up to 500 Kb/s. The twisted pair is terminated with 120 ohms resistors. One of the resistors is located in the rear fuse block, and others are internal to the engine control module (ECM), distance sensing cruise control (DSCC) module , and the body control module (BCM). The resistors are used to reduce noise on the High Speed GMLAN bus during normal vehicle operation. The high speed GMLAN is a differential bus. The high speed GMLAN serial data bus (+) and high speed GMLAN serial data (-) are driven to opposite extremes from a rest or idle level. The idle level, which is approximately 2.5 volts, is considered recessive transmitted data and is interpreted as a logic 1. Driving the lines to their extremes, adds one volt to the high speed GMLAN serial data bus (+) and subtracts one volt from the high speed GMLAN serial data bus (-) wire. This dominant state is interpreted as a logic 0. GMLAN network management supports selective start up and is based on virtual networks. A virtual network is a collection of signals started in response to a vehicle event. The starting of a virtual network signifies that a particular aspect of the vehicles functionality has been requested. A virtual network is supported by virtual devices, which represents a collection of signals owned by a single physical device. So, any physical device can have one or more virtual devices. The signal supervision is the process of determining whether an expected signal is being received or not. Failsofting is the ability to substitute a signal with a default value or a default algorithm, in the absence of a valid signal. Some messages are also interpreted as a heartbeat of a virtual device. If such a signal is lost, the application will set a no communication code against the respective virtual device. This code is mapped on the Tech 2 screen as a code against the physical device. Note: a loss of serial data DTC does not represent a failure of the module that the code is set in.

GMLAN Low Speed Circuit Description THIS IS NOT CLASS II
The data link connector (DLC) allows a scan tool to communicate with the low speed GMLAN serial data circuit. The serial data is transmitted over a single wire to the appropriate control modules. The transmission speed for GMLAN low speed is up to 83.33 Kb/s. Under normal vehicle operating conditions, the speed of the buss is 33.33 Kb/s. This protocol produces a simple pulse train sent out over the GMLAN low speed serial data bus. When a module pulls the buss high, 5 volts, this creates a dominant logic state or 0 on the buss. When the buss is pulled low, 0 volts, it is translated as a recessive logic state or 1. To wake the control modules connected to the GMLAN low speed serial data buss, a high voltage wake up pulse is sent out over the buss, the voltage level of the pules is +10 volts. Modules connected to the GMLAN low speed buss can be part of a virtual network as described in the previous paragraph. The modules on the GMLAN low speed serial data buss are connected to the buss in a parallel configuration.

Local Interconnect Network (LIN) Description
The driver door module (DDM) and the front passenger door module (FPDM) communicate with window motors on the local interconnect network bus 1 and the local interconnect network bus 2 circuits respectively. The DDM LIN buss is connected to all window motors on its side of the vehicle, while the FPDM LIN buss is connected to the other window motors. Communication on this network is only between the door modules and the window motors. The window motors are in effect modules. The window motor modules do not communicate on any other data buss; therefore the door modules, which also communicate on the low speed GMLAN serial data buss will perform all communication with each other, the motors, the body control module (BCM) (gateway) and the scan tool including setting LIN buss DTCs.

Keyword 2000 Circuit Description
The keyword protocols utilize a single wire bi-directional data line between the module and the scan tool. The message structure is a request and response arrangement. The keyword serial data line is used for scan tool diagnostics of the climate control seat module (CCSM) only. Other modules on the vehicle do not exchange data on this circuit.

Data Link Connector (DLC)
The data link connector (DLC) is a standardized 16-cavity connector. Connector design and location is dictated by an industry wide standard, and is required to provide the following:

• Pin 1 GMLAN low speed communications terminal

• Pin 4 Scan tool power ground terminal

• Pin 5 Common signal ground terminal

• Pin 6 High speed GMLAN serial data bus (+) terminal

• Pin 7 keyword 2000 serial data bus terminal

• Pin 14 High speed GMLAN serial data bus (-) terminal

• Pin 16 Scan tool power, battery positive voltage terminal

Serial Data Reference
The scan tool communicates over the various busses on the vehicle. When a scan tool is installed on a vehicle, the scan tool will try to communicate with every module that could be optioned into the vehicle. If an option is not installed on the vehicle, the scan tool will display No Comm for that options control module. In order to avert misdiagnoses of No Communication with a specific module, refer to Data Link References for a list of modules, the busses they communicate with, and the RPO codes for a specific module.

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: GMLAN Low Speed Circuit Description THIS IS NOT CLASS II

I know. There are different speeds for the GM LAN network. And there's only one speed for the Class 2 data network. Like you I have also read the GM Training documentation on data communications including GM LAN.


To boil down what I posted earlier (which was taken straight out of the GM Service Manual for the 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP LS4):

quote Data Link Communications Description and Operation Circuit Description There are 2 different communication networks on this vehicle: The class 2 network and the GMLAN network. The class 2 serial data circuit is the low speed link, and the GMLAN serial data circuit is the high speed link. ................................. GMLAN Circuit Description The data link connector (DLC) allows a scan tool to communicate with the GMLAN serial data circuit. On this vehicle, only GMLAN high speed is used. That means that the serial data is transmitted on 2 wires at an average of 500 Kbps. ................................. GMLAN Serial Data Line The GMLAN serial data communications circuit used on this vehicle is in a linear topology. The following modules are connected to the link, in order from the data link connector (DLC) to the end of the linear configuration: The following modules communicate on the GMLAN serial data circuit: • The transmission control module (TCM), (LS4) 5.3L V8 • The engine control module (ECM), (LS4) 5.3L V8 ................................ Class 2 Serial Data Link The class 2 serial data link allows the following modules to communicate and share data with each other: • Body control module (BCM) • Digital radio receiver (DRR) (U2K) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Drivers information center (DIC) • Electronic brake control module (EBCM) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Instrument panel cluster (IPC) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Heads up display (HUD) (UV6) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • HVAC module (CJ8), (C67) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Powertrain control module (PCM) (L32), (L26) <-- Not applicable to the powertrain I am using • Radio <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Inflatable restraint sensing and diagnostic module (SDM) <-- Not going to be present in this swap • Vehicle control interface module (VCIM) (UE1) <-- Not going to be present in this swap ................................ Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system functions are provided by the body control module (BCM)......If the value is correct the BCM sends the fuel continue password via the serial data (class 2) circuit to the powertrain control module (PCM). If the transponders value is incorrect the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit.

From another section of the service manual for this vehicle: This vehicle is equipped with PASS-Key® III (Personalized Automotive Security System) theft deterrent system.



So again, this vehicle has a Pass-Key III VTD System. The BCM is responsible for looking at the transponder on the ignition key, determining whether or not it is valid, and then sends the "fuel enable password" to the ECM by means of the Class 2 data circuit. Will YOUR PK3 bypass modules work for this application?

Document ID# 905405
2005 Pontiac Grand Prix


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation
The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system functions are provided by the body control module (BCM). When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the BCM supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit. The BCM then compares this value to a value stored in memory, learned key code. If the value is correct the BCM sends the fuel continue password via the serial data circuit to the powertrain control module (PCM). If the transponders value is incorrect the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit. The components of the VTD system are as follows:

Body control module (BCM)
Theft deterrent exciter module
Powertrain control module (PCM)
Ignition key (Transponder)
Ignition lock cylinder
Security indicator
Body Control Module (BCM)
When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the body control module (BCM) supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit. The BCM then compares this value to a value stored in memory, learned key code. The BCM then performs one of the following functions:

If the transponder value is correct, the BCM will send the fuel continue password to the powertrain control module (PCM) via the serial data circuit.
If the transponders value is incorrect the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit.
If the BCM is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value for one second due to a damaged or missing pellet or a damaged theft deterrent exciter module, the BCM will send the fuel disable password to the PCM via the serial data circuit.
The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system uses the following inputs, battery voltage, ignition switched voltage, security system sensor signal and ground circuit. The VTD system uses the following outputs, security system sensor supply voltage and password exchange with the PCM, fuel continue/disable via the serial data circuit.


Important
On some vehicles, if the VTD system is unable to read the ignition key transponder value after the vehicle has started, the VTD system will consider itself malfunctioning. The VTD system will enter a fail enable state and will command the driver information center (DIC) to display the service theft - VTD fail enable message. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the VTD system is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the VTD system will remain fail enable until it is able to read a learned ignition key transponder value. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.


Theft Deterrent Exciter Module
When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder and the ignition is switched ON, the body control module (BCM) supplies battery voltage to the theft deterrent exciter module. The transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the theft deterrent exciter module which is surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its unique value, which is received by the theft deterrent exciter module. The BCM monitors the theft deterrent exciter module for the transponder value via the security system sensor signal circuit.

The theft deterrent exciter module uses the following inputs, security system sensor supply voltage and ground circuit. The theft deterrent exciter module uses the following outputs, security system sensor signal.

Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
The powertrain control module (PCM) verifies that the password received from the body control module (BCM) via the serial data circuit is correct. The PCM can learn only one fuel continue password. If the fuel continue password is correct, the PCM enables the starting and fuel delivery systems.

The PCM disables the starting and fuel delivery systems if any of the following conditions occur:

The fuel continue password is incorrect.
The fuel disable password is sent by the BCM.
No passwords are received - there is no communication with the BCM.
The PCM uses the following input, password exchange with the BCM, fuel continue/disable via the serial data circuit.


Important
On some vehicles, if the PCM is unable to communicate with the VTD system after the vehicle has started, the PCM will consider the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system to be malfunctioning. The PCM will enter a fail enable state and will command the driver information center (DIC) to display the service theft - VTD fail enable message. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the PCM will remain fail enable until communications with the VTD system has been restored. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.


The Ignition Key (Transponder)
The ignition key for passkey III (PK3) equipped vehicles is a typical looking ignition key with a transponder located in the plastic head of the key. The transponder value is fixed and unable to be changed. The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system uses the ignition key transponder value to determine if a valid ignition key is being used to start the vehicle. There are approximately three trillion possible transponder values. There are no visible electrical contacts. The keys may be identified by the letters PK3 stamped into the steel shank of the key. The VTD systems use the following types of ignition keys:

Master Keys
Master keys have a black plastic head for full access operation of the vehicle. Master keys may perform the following functions:

Start the vehicle.
Lock/unlock all of the door locks.
Lock/unlock all of the storage compartments.
Valet Keys

Important
Valet keys are NOT standard equipment on all GM vehicle lines.


Valet keys have a gray plastic head and are for restricted operation of the vehicle. Valet keys may perform the following functions:

Start the vehicle.
Lock/unlock all of the door locks.
Ignition Lock Cylinder
The ignition lock cylinder performs all of the functions of a lock cylinder on a non passkey III equipped vehicle. The ignition lock cylinder for vehicles with PK3 may be located on the steering column or on the instrument panel. In either location the exciter coils surround the ignition lock cylinder such that they are very close to the head of the key which contains the transponder pellet.

If an ignition lock cylinder is replaced, the new ignition lock cylinder must be coded to match the mechanical coding of the PK3 keys. When replacing an ignition lock cylinder, and new PK3 keys are required, the new keys must be learned by the BCM. Refer to Programming Theft Deterrent System Components .

Security Message Operation
Theft System Not Programmed
The body control module (BCM) or powertrain control module (PCM) will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Theft System Not Programmed when either the BCM or PCM are in the vehicle theft deterrent learn mode.

Service Theft System
The PCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Service Theft System when the PCM has lost communication with the BCM after the vehicle has been started. The BCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Service Theft System when the BCM is unable to read the key transponder value after the vehicle has started.

Starting Disabled Due To Theft System
The BCM will send a message to the driver information center (DIC) to display Starting Disabled Due To Theft System when the BCM has either received no key transponder value or the incorrect key transponder value.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Document ID# 905405
2005 Pontiac Grand Prix

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: Do you have a BCM?

For this swap, yes. Came from the original car I got the engine and trans out of.

For other LS4 swaps down the road; will probably elect not to use it unless the customer wants to.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: For this swap, yes. Came from the original car I got the engine and trans out of. For other LS4 swaps down the road; will probably elect not to use it unless the customer wants to. -ryan

The reason I ask is not to for installation.
The PCM and BCM match?
If they did not it would take a lot of steps to clear out everything and then put the PCM in learn mode. You need both the BCM and PCM to do this. If you had a Brand New PCM you would not need to do this.
Ok Back to your Scenario
I just typed a bunch and had to erase it, because I did not ask enough questions.
The PKIII+ key exciter has to match the one stored in the BCM also. Do you have the correct one? and the correct key?

#1 If this was me I would go to a car lot find a 05 5.3L FWD car. I would wire a 555GW to the DLC and steel the Password code.
#2 I would reprogram (via bench harness) the PCM - to clear the Stored Password
#3 I would now splice in the BCM to the Bench programing harness. Power, Ground, Switched Power, and Class II and or GMLAN if needed.
#4 I would perform the 10 minute learn procedure with Tis2Web and the Tech II.
#5 I would remove the Ignition power/switched power, wait 30 seconds and disconnect the PCM.
#6 I would install the PCM into the car and connect the 555GW.
#7 Turn the key and the car will run. 100% guaranteed


If you send me the PCM and BCM I can set it up to accept a new password. It takes both modules.
If you do not have access to a car to steel the code from with the 555GW. I have a 555GW and the dealership next to the Cadillac dealer that I work at is a Pontiac Dealership.

[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 12-21-2007).]

All I can say is WOW (not Women Of Wrestling). In reading this thread it doesn't take long to realize that there is tremendous amount of talent and knowledge here on the forum. My head is spinning at such a rate now that I think I am going to ride a horse from know on. After all if I want the horse to faster I just give a pock with the heel of my boot. But seriously, my first and only experience the having to by-pass/immobilize the pass key is with my 2003 Silverado. I had to buy a transponder/passlock interface. I have yet to do the remote start install yet and I am not looking forward to it.

This is a very good thread and I am glad it got back on track.

------------------



" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

Back about 1000 posts ago I worked though some PK III with used PCM's

quote Originally posted by AJxtcman: The reason I ask is not to for installation. The PCM and BCM match? If they did not it would take a lot of steps to clear out everything and then put the PCM in learn mode. You need both the BCM and PCM to do this. If you had a Brand New PCM you would not need to do this. Ok Back to your Scenario I just typed a bunch and had to erase it, because I did not ask enough questions. The PKIII+ key exciter has to match the one stored in the BCM also. Do you have the correct one? and the correct key? #1 If this was me I would go to a car lot find a 05 5.3L FWD car. I would wire a 555GW to the DLC and steel the Password code. #2 I would reprogram (via bench harness) the PCM - to clear the Stored Password #3 I would now splice in the BCM to the Bench programing harness. Power, Ground, Switched Power, and Class II and or GMLAN if needed. #4 I would perform the 10 minute learn procedure with Tis2Web and the Tech II. #5 I would remove the Ignition power/switched power, wait 30 seconds and disconnect the PCM. #6 I would install the PCM into the car and connect the 555GW. #7 Turn the key and the car will run. 100% guaranteed If you send me the PCM and BCM I can set it up to accept a new password. It takes both modules. If you do not have access to a car to steel the code from with the 555GW. I have a 555GW and the dealership next to the Cadillac dealer that I work at is a Pontiac Dealership.

Ok first off there is no "PCM" that is going to be used in this swap. The LS4 has an ECM which is seperate from the computer that controls the transmission (TCM). But I know what you mean. Just want to make sure nobody on here gets confused with different terms being used.

From the donor 2005 Pontiac Grand Prx GXP, we got the engine, transmission, wiring, ECM, TCM, BCM, DIC, Compass Module, Antenna Module (for the remote keyless entry fobs), and other parts. Everything came from the same car. DO NOT have the PK3 master key nor transponder module from this car; if I get then they will have to come from another car. Now there is another issue; after I ordered the HP Tuners software for this platform and built a bench harness so I could read/flash the ECM and TCM off-car (BCM has been added too), I discovered the ECM had been locked by a previous tuner. I contacted that tuner and was told they reprogrammed it a couple of years ago using "beta test" bootloader/software and no longer had means of unlocking the ECM. I took that ECM to the dealer along with my TCM and BCM hooked up to my bench harness and tried to reflash with stock programming. Got all the way to the part in the SPS programming where it starts actually flashing the ECM and the SPS software locked up and wouldn't reprogram the ECM; as we suspected would happen. So basically the ECM is junk now. I ordered a replacement ECM off the internet which came out of an '06 Grand Prix GXP LS4 that has matching service numbers. As soon as the opportunity comes again I will be going to the dealer to get the stock programming reflashed back onto this replacement ECM for the '05 GXP so it matches the programming/VIN numbers programmed onto the other modules (TCM, BCM, etc) that will be used in this swap.

So to answer your questions above no, the ECM that is going to be used in this swap did not come from the same vehicle everything else did; and it is not new either. So it will have to be re-linked to the BCM/PK3 system. Now I have already read ALL of the VTD/VATS/PK3 articles in the service manual for this vehicle; so I understand what has to be done in order to relink/relearn the PK3 system to the BCM and ECM. The HP Tuners software I have also says it has a feature included in it that "relinks vats" between the ECM and BCM; so hopefully that will do what I need it to. If that doesn't work, I have access to a Tech II scanner so I can command a VATS relearn/relink in both the BCM and ECM.

At this point I would be willing to hear how much those 555GW bypass modules you have are selling for; just in case for some reason I can't get ahold of another PK3 transponder module and key. But I don't think I am going to need to send the ECM & BCM off to you because I should be able to get that relearn done here. But thanks for the offer anyway.

-ryan