Now, moving on there is still a lot left to do on the interior. The tach doesn't work but there are some different settings for the tach output in this ECM that I am going to try before I try some things electronically at the tach. I also want to get the paddleshifters installed and hooked up to the TCM so I can see if those work as intended. Then there's still much more BCM wiring. But at least it runs.
so wait a second.. if the BCM is not needed to run the car, then why are you still installing it? I must ve missed something
i see...why not go aftermarket though, they usually work better anyways...
Ohhh, that's an idea. In fact, why not just buy a Solstice GXP, they usually work better too!
I'M JUST KIDDING!! Really, I am. Please no flames!! Just a joke!
Seriously, though...I really wanted to see how many OEM options from the Grand Prix GXP Ryan could install into my Fiero. So, while it's all swapped in parts to bring a bit of whamo into a 20 year old unofficial American Icon, one could still argue it will still be a 100% GM car. A V-8 mid engine monster with +340 hp and +30 mpg!! That's gotta set a record in somebody's books!! Ryan is going to provide a new option to bring the Fiero into modern times and I applaud his effort!!
So does this mean that the engine can be started and run off of the fiero ignition without the aid of the bcm? (with the help of hp tuners of coarse) This is a major hurdle. As i didn't get a bcm with my drive train and they are a little hard to get separately this is really good news. Congrads!
Ohh man! That sounds awesome! This swap is the best of both worlds. The trans and gas mileage that 3800's get and the sound and recognition the V8 gets.
Bravo! Well done! Sounds freaking great! That is going to be one nice car when it is complete. My hats off to both of you. Blkcofy : You must just be thrilled with that sound.
Originally posted by blkcofy: Ohhh, that's an idea. In fact, why not just buy a Solstice GXP, they usually work better too!
I'M JUST KIDDING!! Really, I am. Please no flames!! Just a joke!
Seriously, though...I really wanted to see how many OEM options from the Grand Prix GXP Ryan could install into my Fiero. So, while it's all swapped in parts to bring a bit of whamo into a 20 year old unofficial American Icon, one could still argue it will still be a 100% GM car. A V-8 mid engine monster with +340 hp and +30 mpg!! That's gotta set a record in somebody's books!! Ryan is going to provide a new option to bring the Fiero into modern times and I applaud his effort!!
Blkcofy
hahaha, no worries man, im not a hater, i was just curious as to the reasoning, and it definately makes sense to me, so go for it. We are all very pleased just to be reading this thread, it is a pleasure to see the work being done.
Question: The stock rating is 303 HP.. where are you getting the extra 37 horses from? you think you will get that much of a gain just from dyno tuning? inquiring minds want to know
Question: The stock rating is 303 HP.. where are you getting the extra 37 horses from? you think you will get that much of a gain just from dyno tuning? inquiring minds want to know
Ryan did a complete porting process, including the heads, a multi-angle seat and valve grind/cut job, as well as the manifold exhaust inlets. This plus the dyno tuning should get me pretty close to 340hp based on Ryan's early estimates. Only the dyno will tell though.
[This message has been edited by blkcofy (edited 01-19-2008).]
Originally posted by blkcofy: Ryan did a complete porting process, including the heads, a multi-angle seat and valve grind/cut job, as well as the manifold exhaust inlets. This plus the dyno tuning should get me pretty close to 340hp based on Ryan's early estimates. Only the dyno will tell though.
very coool. how much material was a removed? was there alot to work with or did they come fairly well optimized from the factory?
very coool. how much material was a removed? was there alot to work with or did they come fairly well optimized from the factory?
As-cast (from the factory) most of the port area in both the intake and exhaust isn't bad. But they did need quite a bit of help around the area where the valve guides protrude down into the ports. I removed quite a bit of material from these areas and reshaped the casting around the guides to promote the best flow possible with this type of porting job.
I had a customer come in today with an 06 GXP 5.3L. I test drove it around. It was fun, but the traction control kicked in all the time. We had about 11" of snow last night. Anyway you will be happy with it. I like the way the starter is attached. How did they disable the torque management? As soon as the PCM does not see the ABS messages it goes into a torque management mode. Not second gear starts. It just runs a different profile. I will look for a graph.
I had a customer come in today with an 06 GXP 5.3L. I test drove it around. It was fun, but the traction control kicked in all the time. We had about 11" of snow last night. Anyway you will be happy with it. I like the way the starter is attached. How did they disable the torque management? As soon as the PCM does not see the ABS messages it goes into a torque management mode. Not second gear starts. It just runs a different profile. I will look for a graph.
I assume you are talking about the desired and requested torque circuits coming from the ECM that are supposed to go to the ABS computer, correct?
For now all I did was turn off the des and req torque I/O circuit trouble codes in the programming. I don't want to mess with adjusting the torque management tables until I can drive the car and see how it feels. What I will probably end up doing is reducing the amount of torque management that gets implemented by the computer but will still leave some in there so it functions to be easier on the trans. Again, I will have to get some seat time in this thing to see how it feels and find a nice balance of performance and durability.
I did shut off the traction control functions in the programming since that can't work without ABS data.
I assume you are talking about the desired and requested torque circuits coming from the ECM that are supposed to go to the ABS computer, correct?
For now all I did was turn off the des and req torque I/O circuit trouble codes in the programming. I don't want to mess with adjusting the torque management tables until I can drive the car and see how it feels. What I will probably end up doing is reducing the amount of torque management that gets implemented by the computer but will still leave some in there so it functions to be easier on the trans. Again, I will have to get some seat time in this thing to see how it feels and find a nice balance of performance and durability.
I did shut off the traction control functions in the programming since that can't work without ABS data.
After I posted this I was on the phone for hours talking to people all night. I had an email to call Wester's. I talked to Lyndon for awhile and discussed this and as soon as I hung up the phone rang again had three customers for the Northstar with the LS1 call me one after the next. I will look for the graph and try to explain it better when I get the graph.
Ryan's got the car on all four tires and has taken it's maiden test drive! The weather's been pretty crappy, so he's not been able to open him up yet...but he reports that the power is evident, especially mid-range and top end. And he's happy to report the paddle shifter is working perfectly and is a match made in heaven to the performance upgrade we had done to the 4T65-E transmission. Most of the DIC functionality is working, especially the gear indicators that is linked to the paddle shift when in TAPShift mode. I think he's got some playing to do with the remote start and deleting some of the error codes like ABS and Steer Assist, but most of the DIC is reading correctly. Oh, there's an issue with getting the speedometer to read correctly, but he's got a solution for this as well. I'm telling you guys, Ryan is fricken amazing. I've never been more excited!!
He's scheduled to get everything professionally aligned this week and once the weather breaks, he'll be able to put the car through his pacing to determine how to fine tune everything. I'm sure he'll provide more visuals and better explain than I can on what's been done thus far!
In the meantime, I wanted to share a photo of the finished engine bay (with dual deck lid strut kit from Rodney Dickman) and a sticker I found on ebay that I'm going to try to alter (change to Fiero GXP and increase the horsepower!!) and have it planted somewhere either under the hood, behind the visor, or dare I in the window!! I'm still gased about what my 0-60 time will be with more HP and less weight than a Monte Carlo SS! Any educated guesses??
Well blkofy coming time for our 2.8L V6 vs. LS4 race..... actually this spring it would be fun to get together and shoot some video of stock vs modded to see how much better the LS4 really is.
Oh, and yes I am going to address that black engine cover! I found some LS4 Monte Carlo SS and Grand Prix GXP owners who have painted their covers. I haven't decided the color as I'm debating a few options, here's what they've done...
In the meantime, I wanted to share a photo of the finished engine bay (with dual deck lid strut kit from Rodney Dickman) and a sticker I found on ebay that I'm going to try to alter (change to Fiero GXP and increase the horsepower!!) and have it planted somewhere either under the hood, behind the visor, or dare I in the window!! I'm still gased about what my 0-60 time will be with more HP and less weight than a Monte Carlo SS! Any educated guesses??
Blkcofy
Newbie post here
Cool build.
I'm looking for a project car so I can attempt the same swap.
WAG on your 0-60 is 4.8 seconds.
Best 0-60 so far in my GP GXP was a traction limited 5.4 (have to ease into the throttle for the first couple of seconds) on a 3,700 pound car. Since you are probably close to 1000 pounds lighter, and may have better weight transfer and traction than the FWD's, sub 5 seconds should be there.
Oh, and yes I am going to address that black engine cover! I found some LS4 Monte Carlo SS and Grand Prix GXP owners who have painted their covers. I haven't decided the color as I'm debating a few options, here's what they've done...
Color match it to the car, and then to the middle in the interior color unless the car itself is two tone then do it in those colors.
I see you have axles installed. Would you mind sharing the combination that you used with us? I have the original gxp axles and a bunch of fiero axles but, i'm not sure if any of those combo,s will work. By the way,, Great thread! Good info. Keep up the great work. Excellent quality!
Would still like to have info on the axle set-up. If you don't mind. Also, interested how the fuel pump control is working (without the tank pressure sensor ) and the alternator control without the load shed issues from the bcm. I'm hoping that i won't HAVE to run a bcm. Any help would be appreciated . Thanks in advance.
Would still like to have info on the axle set-up. If you don't mind. Also, interested how the fuel pump control is working (without the tank pressure sensor ) and the alternator control without the load shed issues from the bcm. I'm hoping that i won't HAVE to run a bcm. Any help would be appreciated . Thanks in advance.
The fuel tank pressure sensor is only used for the EVAP emissions system and has no bearing on the fuel pump operation. The fuel pump operates on this powertrain just like stock Fiero; nothing fancy.
As mentioned before, the charging system works fine without the BCM even being hooked up to the car. I suppose the ECM just reverts to the old school method of charging system voltage in the absence of the BCM and battery current sensor.
As far as the axles are concerned, I used most of the guts from a 94 Beretta 3100 4T60-E driver's side axle for the driver's side in this swap. The passenger side used the inner axle shaft from the driver's side of the GXP, the inner tripod from the pass side of the GXP, and an outer tripod shell from a manual trans equipped Fiero (used GXP tripod guts). More information on axles can be found here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/swap/axles.htm
I must make it VERY CLEAR that my solution for axles may or may not work for you. The length of axles you need to run will depend on where your engine/transmission is positioned on the cradle in relation to left-right.
As blkcofy mentioned earlier, there are some issues with the speedo signal. The GXP ECM sends out a vehicle speed signal to the instrument cluster over the data line in the GXP, so there is no dedicated VSS output signal. I thought there was one when I found there was a VSS output wire to the radio but all attempts to get the Fiero speedo to read this signal failed. Turns out the TCM sends a vehicle speed signal on a dedicated wire to the ECM. I was able to get the Fiero speedo to pick up this signal but it was reading about 6.5x faster than actual. So I have ordered a signal converter box from dakota digital which is supposed to step this signal down to something I can use. I will advise on what I find there.
There is an issue with the tach. Again, the ECM communicates the tach signal to the instrument cluster over the data line; but there is a tach signal output that goes to the ABS computer. When I originally tried to hook the Fiero's tach up to this wire, it didn't work. So I did some checking and it turns out I was able to make the Fiero tach work with this signal by running a 22k ohm resistor into this circuit with the other side of the resistor running to ignition 12v + power. The tach is reading slow (like it's hooked up to a 4cyl engine) and I have attempted to correct this in the ECM programming, but that didn't work. So I will probably just change out the calibration capacitor on the tach's circuit board to make it read correctly.
I would like to go into more detail about recent driving experiences I've had with this car but I have to get up early tomorrow to meet an alignment appointment.
ryan, Thanks for the reply. fantastic info, that was a huge help. Anxious to here how this thing performs. I'm thinking this should be one really quick little Fiero! (and a great DD)
The car got an alignment today and now it is sitting safely inside the A/C shop where they will make up some custom lines to connect the LS4's A/C compressor to the Fiero.
Now about the BCM and DIC. The main reason why the BCM was installed into this car was because the customer wanted the factory GXP remote keyless entry, remote start, and alarm functions as well as the DIC to work. The DIC will not work without the BCM.
As mentioned earlier, pretty much the ENTIRE electrical system of the GXP runs thru the BCM. Everything from interior and exterior lights to windshield wipers. The BCM also is responsible for telling the ECM, TCM, and other devices in the car when the ignition key is in off, assy, on, or crank positions. On the GXP and other modern GM cars with BCMs there are only a few small wires that actually connect to the ignition switch. The bulk of current switching is done by the BCM. The BCM also monitors several inputs and outputs to determine when to turn on lights, activate output functions, display warning/error messages on the DIC, etc.
Before I hooked up the BCM, it was unclear just how many circuits that go to it could be omitted before it would suspend functioning of the keyless entry/start and alarm options. Basically I found out a lot of stuff didn't need to be hooked up for those functions to work; and below is a basic list of the inputs/outputs that I ended up using...
INPUTS:
Battery Power Ground Fiero Ignition switch output: assy, on, crank Ignition key "in cylinder" monitor Door, hood, and trunk ajar switches Brake Pedal Position Sensor Battery Current Sensor Remote Keyless Receiver Module DIC and Compass Module PassKey 3 (PK3) exciter/receiver module Dimmer potentiometer for DIC dimming control (OE Fiero dimmer is incompatible)
OUTPUTS:
Dome, interior, and trunk lights power supply RAP (retained assy power) relay - (used to keep power flowing to the radio when the key is turned off, will shut down when door is opened or preset time limit expires) Main Ignition Power supply relay (powers up ECM, TCM, TwistMachine TAPshift receiver module) Vehicle Content Theft Deterrent (alarm) indicator LED Parking lamps relay Backup lights Door lock/unlock relays Horn Trunk release solenoid
I think that pretty much covers it. I used my GM TECH 2 scanner to program the key fob remote to the BCM and everything functions great. In the GXP, the keyless remote receiver module was wired up to an antenna grid on the back window of the car. Since the Fiero had no such grid, I had to come up with something else. As it turns out, this car had one of those old school cell phone antennas mounted to the back window that we ended up using as the antenna for the remote keyless system and the range seems to be pretty good.
Now about the PK3 system... The PK3 system had to be wired up to prevent a theft system warning message from being constantly displayed on the DIC (there was no way to get this warning message off the DIC by hitting buttons). I consulted the customer about how he wanted this system installed and it was decided that a slot be cut in the center console ALDL and cig lighter cover plate so the PK3 key could be inserted to bypass the system (the PK3 exciter/receiver module is mounted under the center console just behind the cover plate). This key doesn't have to be turned or anything fancy in order for the PK3 system to read it; in fact, it doesn't even have to be in the slot I cut for it. Just has to lay near the exciter/receiver module in order for the system to "see" it. The key can be removed from the slot or the area of the module to render the car inoperable for theft deterrent purposes.
Concerning the DIC, it does display some warning messages for the ABS and Stability control systems when the key is turned on. There is no way I can get around this unless I install the ABS computer and satisfy it's inputs so it won't set any trouble codes (which would end up triggering these same warning messages on the DIC anyway). But the good news is these warning messages can be cycled thru by hitting a button a couple of times on the DIC and they go away for the continuation of vehicle operation. The DIC displays transmission temp, oil life, mileage, trip odometer, compass info, transmission gear position (or current gear if in TAPShift mode) as well as a host of warning messages for such things is hot engine temp, engine oil pressure low, engine oil level low, etc. Unfortunately one of the functions I was not able to make work is the G-force readouts. The sensor for these functions is part of the stability control system which connects directly to the ABS computer; and there's no way to hook it up to the BCM without having the ABS computer hooked up as well. The other thing I can't make work right is the fuel economy computer readout on the DIC. The ECM monitors fuel level in the tank directly, and then sends out a fuel level signal to the BCM, DIC, and GXP instrument cluster over the data line. The type of sender (and it's resistance values) used in the GXP is different than what the OE Fiero sending unit uses; and my attempts to merge the two systems using resistors didn't work without altering the fuel gauge reading on the Fiero's instrument cluster significantly. I suppose the GXP fuel level sensor could be installed in the Fiero tank alongside the OE sender (if there's enough room), but even if it was, the ECM is programmed for a bigger capacity fuel tank than what the Fiero has so it's doubtful the fuel econ computer would give accurate data to the driver anyway. Furthermore, I'm sure vehicle weight is a factor in making fuel economy calculations and I don't know where the values for these are stored and if they can be changed (might be stored in the BCM or DIC, neither of which can be custom programmed at this time).
One of the neat features alotted for by having the BCM wired up is the interior/trunk lights is even if you accidently leave any of these on, the BCM will shut them down after a preset time limit. So no worries about leaving the doors or trunk lid open at car shows because the BCM will make sure the battery doesn't go dead.
Now if you had fun reading all of this, imagine how much fun it was to wire it up!
Welp...Ryan got the car back from the Alignment Shop and the A/C shop! The weather is still pretty crappy, but I refuse to believe Ryan didn't have a little fun with the car on the drive back!! You can see how the 17/18 staggered wheel setup looks. I think Ryan is going to lower the back coil overs a smidgen to reduce that gap a bit. Really glad I went with the 12" Corvette rotors. Ryan reports that their working really well, noticeably better than the Grand AM rear upgrade from The Fiero Store. And I think I'm happy with the rim choice.
He's still got a few gremlins he has to work through on some of the electronics...I sent him a new MOMO steering wheel that better matches with the TAPShift's paddles.
And, wouldn't cha know...Ryan found a leak in my heater core, which answers why the windshield was fogging up so quickly, so he's replacing that with a part I got from The Fiero Store. Oh, I found a perfect paint example for the engine cover! I think one of you might have suggested this combo, actually... According the the owner, he painted the whole cover in 4 to 5 coats of clear, and then taped off the center and painted the sides in red. Looks hot.
So...I patiently wait for Ryan to do the appropriate tuning and tweaks, and will have him find a place to put it on a dyno to see the fruits of all his mastery and labor. Hell, I get excited about 303hp stock, so anything closer to my estimated 340hp is gravy! Nooooo, I lie...I want 350hp sooooo bad!! It just sounds bad ass! We'll see, we'll see!
Ok, it's been a while but there's a lot to talk about. First off the reason for the long delay in updates to this thread was because of a couple of things: bad weather, time the car spent at the alignment and a/c shops, other repairs the car needed (heater core), waiting on parts to come in, etc. But I'm pretty much to the point of being done with this car other than putting it thru its road trials, which is difficult to do around here with the bad weather we've been having. But lets cover a few things to get this thread up-to-date...
SPEEDO:
As mentioned before, I was not able to use the VSS output to radio the ECM has because it wasn't a signal I could get the Fiero speedo to recognize. I was able to get the Fiero speedo to recognize the VSS signal coming out of the TCM going into the ECM, but it was reading about 6.5x too fast. I contacted Dakota Digital and ordered their SGI-5 speedo signal interface module. This unit is fully programmable on-the-fly and ended up working great for this application. I did have to run the Fiero speedo off the SGI-5's "2000ppm oc" output (usually used for older ECMs and cruise controls) in order for it to work tho. Also had to run the output signal from the SGI-5 thru the Fiero speedo conversion circuit I have shown on my website here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/fmods.htm
TACH:
As mentioned earlier, the ECM has a tach output. At first, I was unable to get the Fiero's tach to recognize this signal; but then I realized it is used to seeing a signal that has a 12v bias (because it is coming off the ignition coil and gets pulled to ground when the ign module commands the coil to fire). Appearantly, the ECM only puts out a ground pulse with no compatible positive power bias, and the Fiero's tach couldn't recognize this. All I had to do to get it to work was run a wire from an IGN 12v + source thru a 22k ohm resistor, then tied that into the existing tach wire. With this done the tach was registering engine RPM, but appeared to be 1/3 too slow reading vs. actual engine RPM. Back in the day I had the reverse problem when I wanted to get a 4cyl tach to work with a V6. All I had to do to resolve that issue was to replace the calibration capacitor with one that had a lower uF rating than stock (stock = 0.009uF and I replaced it with 0.006uF to correct the reading). Turns out this stock V6 tach had the same 0.009uF capacitor in the same location on the curcuit board as that 4cyl unit had. I had a tough time finding the correct capacitor I needed so I ran two in a parallel curcuit to get the 0.0114uF rating I needed and it seems to be dead on with the scan tool says the actual engine RPM is doing. A picture showing the location of the capacitor in question can be seen here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/tach.jpg
DIC MOUNTING:
I took the liberty of fab'ing up a mounting bracket so I could put the DIC up on the dash (using existing OE dash trim mounting screws) temporarily. BLKCOFY informs me that he plans on doing a custom dash sometime in the future, but until then I still want him to be able to use (and see) the DIC. Below is a picture of where I put the DIC and you can also see the new MOMO steering wheel and paddle shifter setup...
DRIVING IMPRESSIONS (so far):
I still have some tuning to do. For one thing the DoD seems to want to kick in at speeds as slow as 25mph and during light-moderate accelleration which is kind of annoying. There is a constant in HP Tuners that is supposed to allow me to set the MPH qualifier for DoD to kick in but I've tried many different settings here and nothing has had an effect so for. So I am going to contact HP Tuners and see what can be done. I did find min/max RPM qualifiers for DoD operation and those do work, so I can at least somewhat work around this for now in case HP Tuners can't resolve the issue.
Transmission shift points and firmness still need some tweaking but it's getting close. As with many aspects of tuning, things like this can only be ironed out on the road and require some driving time to get right. A dyno is pretty much useless for this aspect of the tuning.
Idle, part throttle cruising, and light-moderate accelleration fuel and spark seem to be very close to where they need to be. Haven't been able to do many WOT blasts around here with the slick conditions. But those I have been able to do showed the engine is right at home in a (roughly) 700lb less body than it is used to. This engine has more than enough power to spin the tires upon request at low speeds or from a dead stop and it has pretty long legs for the big end. I don't think blkcofy is going to be disappointed. The exhaust note this engine makes at full song is possibily the best I've heard coming from an exhaust system running only cats and resonated tips (thanks to the LSx's revised firing order vs. conventional SBC); despite the fact it is a tad on the loud side. The interior drone on the highway isn't any worse (might even be less so) than what 3800's put out with the same exhaust system. To be quite honest this thing really doesn't make its presence known until you get into it a bit. But when you do, it will definately turn heads.
That's pretty much it. I'm contacting the chassis dyno shop tomorrow to get rates and schedule info so blkcofy can decide if he wants to get this thing dyno'ed here or not. I'm also hoping for some dry weather so I can get some more seat time to tweak the programming in the ECM and TCM.
Is that capacitor swap doable on the speedo as well to get kilometers to read MPH? One of my 3 Fieros came from Canada...the yellow turbo 3.1...
You can use the DIC to select either MPH or KPH for the speedo, at least on the 2005 GXP that was the donor for this swap. (max indicated speed either 220kmh or 220 mph).
Darth, did you end up using the ECM VSS signal through the translator unit or the TCM signal? Was the ability to switch between the two scales retained?
If not, does it look like the translator be able to scale the MPH output to match the metric scale on some vehicles?
Is that capacitor swap doable on the speedo as well to get kilometers to read MPH? One of my 3 Fieros came from Canada...the yellow turbo 3.1...
I believe the speedo needle can only be calibrated by changing the crystal. (This has to be done in order to install the 180mph speedo face overlay and have it read correctly). But as long as you could find the correct value crystal you need, I don't see why you couldn't do what you are asking.
You can use the DIC to select either MPH or KPH for the speedo, at least on the 2005 GXP that was the donor for this swap. (max indicated speed either 220kmh or 220 mph).
I think lou is using stock Fiero speedometers from canada that have the primary (larger) numbers in km/h. So the DIC from the GXP cannot change from english to metric units on the Fiero speedo.
quote
Darth, did you end up using the ECM VSS signal through the translator unit or the TCM signal? Was the ability to switch between the two scales retained?
If not, does it look like the translator be able to scale the MPH output to match the metric scale on some vehicles?
In the original GXP, the VSS signal for the speedometer, DIC, and BCM travels along the Class 2 data line, and thus no module exists that can read the data and spit out a Fiero-compatible VSS signal. The LS4's ECM does have what the wiring diagrams call a "VSS output" that goes to certain radio models, but I was unable to use this signal. Even if I was, switching from english to metric thru the DIC would probably have no effect on this signal.
Since I was unable to use the ECM's VSS output signal I had to use the one coming out of the TCM.
I don't know if the SGI-5 can do what you are asking (concerning scale the MPH output to match the metric scale on some vehicles).
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-08-2008).]
Do the paddle shifters go through the BCM, or are they wired directly to the TCM?
Cheers
ps, when I have enough posts, you and Darth both get a + for me on this build
THanks for the pos feedback. To answer your question, no the paddleshifters don't go thru the BCM at all; they connect directly to the TCM. So you don't need the BCM if you want to utilize the TAPShift function.
