All of this will be going into a 1987 Fiero GT. The features that are planned to be included in the swap are:
-The transmission TAPShift function (steering wheel mounted shift paddles) -DoD (displacement on demand) function in the engine -And factory remote start / keyless entry / driver info center.
THE PLAN:
Phase 1 has been completed which was to port the cylinder heads in order to increase power output of the engine without sacrificing drivability or fuel economy. An aftermarket cam was considered as on option but no suitable affordable unit was available. Also the transmission has been gone thru (by TripleEdgePerformance: http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com ) in order to install a shift improver kit and various fixes for known bugs.
Phase 2 is the mechanical and electrical aspects of the engine/transmission swap. The plan is to complete this phase and get the engine running before I move on to Phase 3.
Phase 3 is to install the BCM, DIC, and other modules we got from the Grand Prix in to the Fiero to see how much of it I can get working without too much trouble. There is currently no programming software available that can reprogram the BCM to remove certain functions so I imagine I will have a lot of work to do in order to "fool" certain inputs and outputs in order to prevent warning messages from being displayed on the DIC.
A couple of things I have noticed about this engine is it shares a lot of the standard architecture with the LS1 series of engines, except for the bellhousing bolt pattern, starter mounting location, shorter crank, and more compact assy/belt drive setup. The transmission is actually going to create some issues because GM didn't cast in extra support in the area of the left rear mount -- probably because it wasn't used in the Grand Prix. I already have an idea of how to work around this issue so I can use my 4-corner mount system that doesn't require a dog-bone. Stock this powertrain only used 3 lower mounts (two on the pass side and one on the driver's side), which would require the use of a dog bone on the driver's side -- where no such provisions exist on the Fiero chassis. One of the goals I have for this swap is to modify the Fiero chassis as little as possible (if at all).
The front cover / water pump housing used on this engine is quite ingenious. All coolant connections are located in this cover as well as the fill point for the entire cooling system (the grand prix's radiator did not have a fill point on it). Below is a picture of the T-stat housing and all heater hose and radiator hose connections, which are located just behind and below the water pump.
On this engine the starter is mounted to the transmission which is unique. The transmission case has a special casting to accomodate this.
More pictures to follow. Other pictures and information on the LS4/4T65-E can be found on a page I dedicated to this powertrain on my website here:
Will be keeping an eye on this Thread, being I am slowy working on a 06 LS4/65E swap myself into my 88 GT. I havent gotten very far on the swap being I have had the motor/trans for 5 months and it is only half way mounted on the cradle. Looks like I am going almost the same route with my install but not including the DIC, remote start, ect. I have done alot of reading on the motor/trans and the wiring/PCM side of the swap and looks to be somewhat difficult but nothing that cant be done. I talked to several companies about the wiring/PCM part of the swap and looks like several can do it for a decent price but its not a full complete harness. Plus the same company can reprogram the PCM and from what they say the swap can be done without the BCM/Ignition key from donor and they program out the Passkey. This is only going off what I have talked with a few companies about so we will see. Then one company can make me a complete harness and do the PCM work for a decent price and it will be plug and play. Look forward to seeing progress on the swap.
Wow thats gonna be awesome if you get all those functions to work by integrating those controllers and the pedal. This info is gonna help a lot when I get around to putting in my 6.8L SBC!
Here are some pictures of the auto trans flexplate (flywheel) and back of the block...
This flexplate does NOT have a counterbalance weight; but it does have the FWD torque converter bolt pattern (for the larger, 258mm converter like the 3800 SC engines use).
Here are some pics of the transmission, off the engine...
And the left rear mount area I mentioned earlier where GM didn't cast in extra beef because no mounts were used in this location on this case, in the cars it was put into... A few of the holes are not even tapped or drilled all the way either.
One of the things I was doing today was machining out some sleeves so they could accept the 84-87 Fiero engine cradle rubber mount bushings that I am using for my motor mounts.
Since I had use of the neighbor's lathe all day I went ahead and knocked a few out. I also went ahead and made some aluminum inserts for mock-up when I weld everything together. The rubber cradle bushings have an interference fit to these sleeves so they have to be pressed in. And I can't weld on these sleeves with bushings in them; so that's where the aluminum inserts come in.
Here is a picture of the engine block when I had the heads off.
I did the port work on the cylinder heads myself -- focusing especially in the area of the valve guide in both ports; which needed a lot of attention. I then took the heads to the machine shop to have a multi-angle, performance valve and seat grinding job done. Installed new valve seals and put everything back together (engine only had 40,000mi on it so there was no reason to change out valve springs).
Here are some pictures of the stock ports...
Here is after the porting before the heads went to the machine shop...
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 09-13-2007).]
The factory head gaskets are 3 layers (aka: multi layer steel, or MLS) and are coated with a black sealing agent in key areas. Obviously new factory gaskets were used, and the head bolts that are used on this engine are torque to yeild, so those had to be replaced as well. The LS4 uses ten - 11mm x 2.0 thread pitch bolts around the cylinders and five - 8mm x 1.25 bolts along the lifter valley per head. The 11mm bolts get torqed to 22 ft/lbs in sequence, then 90 deg turn each in sequence, then an additional 70 degrees in sequence for the final pass. Then the 8mm bolts get torqued to 22 ft/lbs from the center out.
The front cover / water pump housing used on this engine is quite ingenious. All coolant connections are located in this cover as well as the fill point for the entire cooling system (the grand prix's radiator did not have a fill point on it). Below is a picture of the T-stat housing and all heater hose and radiator hose connections, which are located just behind and below the water pump.
More pictures to follow. Other pictures and information on the LS4/4T65-E can be found on a page I dedicated to this powertrain on my website here:
Where did you get your information on the coolant flow? It looks like the coolant would flow in the opposite direction since the thermostat housing appears to be located centrally at the back of the pump. I was confused for a moment with the 3900 coolant flow since the thermostat is located in the same area as shown in your picture however, the filler neck and crossover mounted at the end of the heads up high suggested that despite the thermostat location it is the inlet point for coolant.
Hey Joe you always want your coolant to flow out of the T-stat. If cool coolant flowed past it, it would stay closed all the time. If Darth doesn't want to rip that water pump off and post pics i can disassemble mine and post some pics. Keep the pic coming
Hey Joe you always want your coolant to flow out of the T-stat. If cool coolant flowed past it, it would stay closed all the time. If Darth doesn't want to rip that water pump off and post pics i can disassemble mine and post some pics. Keep the pic coming
That's why I've been so concerned about my situation, I haven't received confirmatory information for my engine in which case my hoses would be connected backwards. It just didn't seem right for it to have traditional flow pattern with the thermostat at what is normally the inlet on previous engines so I'll swap the hoses around especially given you are absolutely right about the premature closing of the thermostat that would result. In my case it might not manifest very easily since I drilled some safety holes in the face of the stat in the event of a failure to allow some coolant flow.
I would assume by the porting job that the owner of this car is looking for some more power. I know there isn't much out there for the ls4 yet, but Harland Sharp apparently makes 1.8 rockers for this engine. That might be something the owner would be interested in.
Where did you get your information on the coolant flow? It looks like the coolant would flow in the opposite direction since the thermostat housing appears to be located centrally at the back of the pump. I was confused for a moment with the 3900 coolant flow since the thermostat is located in the same area as shown in your picture however, the filler neck and crossover mounted at the end of the heads up high suggested that despite the thermostat location it is the inlet point for coolant.
I was looking thru the service manual for the LS4 and found some pictures in the section titled "Radiator Hose Replacement - Outlet LS4". Here is a picture from that section showing the outlet hose and where it connects to the engine...
EDIT: My initial statement about coolant inlets and outlets turned out to be incorrect/backwards. The coolant inlet to the engine is in-fact the t-stat housing. The smaller coolant port just below this housing is the heater core return to the engine which routes returning coolant across the t-stat. There is a bypass hole that connects the inlet/outlet portions of the system that gets closed off once the t-stat opens. Before that (with t-stat closed) coolant is allowed to circulate between the two sections of the system so the t-stat will always see a constant flow of coolant.
I apologize for this mistake and will update the coolant flow pics as soon as possible.
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 11-21-2007).]
I was looking thru the service manual for the LS4 and found some pictures in the section titled "Radiator Hose Replacement - Outlet LS4". Here is a picture from that section showing the outlet hose and where it connects to the engine... As you can see in the picture, the indication is the outlet hose connects to the t-stat housing. The heater hose connection that comes in closest to the t-stat housing I assume is the hot water outlet to the heater core. Therefore the two other ports must be returns.
Thanks, my problem is that I'm apparently not paying as close attention to detail as I should. My picture of the hose connection is titled rad outlet and I was so focused on the picture which has no writing indicating the direction that I missed the title description. So my hoses are connected backwards which explains why things didn't make since to me when looking at the fitting arrangement.
What I don't like about this configuration on my engine is the height of the inlet, and the pump configuration which sucks water out of the block as opposed to pushing it through the heads then out the bottom of the block. It can also be a problem in the event of a low coolant level in my case if there is not enough water to push into the inlet which sits kind of high.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-13-2007).]
Hey Joe don't forget that the LS series of motors untilizes reverse flow cooling. The round holes on the waterpump housing are for coolant into the engine. The square holes are for the coolant out of the engine.
There are actually 4 passagways in the housing. If your hoses where hooked up backwards the only thing i think it would do is change the direction of coolant flow through your radiator. That might create some issues with your coolant overflow since it is now on the hot side of the rad.
This is why I fell in love with the LS4. For the last 2 years I've been eyeing the 3.8 Series II/III S/C until I started to learn more and more about this engine. With all of the porting Ryan's done and with the planned tuning, I'm hoping to deliver at least 340hp. And I'm guessing the all aluminum engine block is lighter than the 2.8L that's coming out!
[From ]www.modernracer.com] The heart of the Grand Prix GXP is the new 5300 V-8 – the first time in almost 20 years that a V-8 engine has been offered in a Grand Prix. It also is the first application ever for the small-block V-8 in a front-wheel-drive configuration.
Engineered specifically for front-drive layouts, the 5300 V-8 produces a peak of 303 horsepower and 323 lb.-ft. of torque – with 90 percent of torque available from 1500 rpm to 5200 rpm. It also incorporates Displacement on Demand (DOD) technology, which debuted in 2005 GM extended midsize SUVs equipped with the Vortec 5.3L V-8 (LH6) engine. With the 5300 V-8, DOD technology enables fuel economy gains of up to 12 percent in certain driving conditions by reducing the number of cylinders engaged in the combustion process. A sophisticated engine controller determines when to deactivate cylinders, allowing the engine to maintain vehicle speed in lighter load conditions such as highway cruising. When the cylinders are deactivated, the engine effectively operates as a V-4, with alternate cylinders on each cylinder bank disabled. The engine returns to V-8 mode the instant the controller determines the vehicle speed or load requires additional power. The process is seamless and virtually imperceptible. The all-aluminum 5300 V-8 is based on the Gen IV small-block architecture, but is modified to accommodate the “east-west” mounting position of the Grand Prix’s front-wheel-drive chassis. To fit the “sideways” positioning in the Grand Prix, several changes were made to reduce the engine’s overall length, including the use of a shorter crankshaft and a single-belt accessory drive system.
[This message has been edited by blkcofy (edited 09-14-2007).]
The Gen III and IV engines are NOT, to my knowledge, reverse flow cooling. That was a trick that GM used with the Gen II's to get a little more from the outdated design before the Gen III came out.
The Gen III and IV engines are NOT, to my knowledge, reverse flow cooling. That was a trick that GM used with the Gen II's to get a little more from the outdated design before the Gen III came out.
I'm not sure if GM considers it "reverse flow" anymore but i just went outside and ran some water through the pump ports. I ran water into the round ports and water came out of the inlet tube on the housing. That round port on the block goes right to the heads. The heads get the coolant first.
Ok question - I want to do an LS4 swap as well - but I want to go with a manual tranny. Computer wise is this possible and if so, what is required?
To try to answer your specific question, I was strongly advised against keeping my 5sp manual getrag. Despite the fact that it is a newly rebuilt tranny w/ less than 300 miles on it the logic thought of 135hp engine match w/ now a 340hp engine match probably doesnt make alot of sense. While many folks have reported that the Getrag should have been able to handle the power, I've weighed that advice vs logic, as well as hearing many of these same Getrag loyals looking for new tranny's after a few years. I've had my car for 14 years and would like to have it another 14, so I opted with using the tranny that came with the engine (4T65e). Now, I actually ended up having Ryan practically rebuild compenents on it to handle future power upgrades as well as more aggressive shifting since I'm also keeping the TAPShift functionality. Would I have loved to keep a manual in the car? H-E-double toothpick yeah! So I did look into it further and found that the 6sp tranny in the G6 would be a possible option. I think you'd still have to do some mods to it to firm it up, as the G6 GTP is only 252hp.
Keep asking and looking if you want to go manual...look into the G6 even. And if you think you actually can use a 5sp Getrag....do I have a deal for you!!
To try to answer your specific question, I was strongly advised against keeping my 5sp manual getrag. Despite the fact that it is a newly rebuilt tranny w/ less than 300 miles on it the logic thought of 135hp engine match w/ now a 340hp engine match probably doesnt make alot of sense. While many folks have reported that the Getrag should have been able to handle the power, I've weighed that advice vs logic, as well as hearing many of these same Getrag loyals looking for new tranny's after a few years. I've had my car for 14 years and would like to have it another 14, so I opted with using the tranny that came with the engine (4T65e). Now, I actually ended up having Ryan practically rebuild compenents on it to handle future power upgrades as well as more aggressive shifting since I'm also keeping the TAPShift functionality. Would I have loved to keep a manual in the car? H-E-double toothpick yeah! So I did look into it further and found that the 6sp tranny in the G6 would be a possible option. I think you'd still have to do some mods to it to firm it up, as the G6 GTP is only 252hp.
Keep asking and looking if you want to go manual...look into the G6 even. And if you think you actually can use a 5sp Getrag....do I have a deal for you!!
To further contribute to this discussion one of the other major reasons I advised against using the manual trans with this engine was because of the starter mounting issue. As you can see in the pictures above, the starter mounts to the 4T65-E auto transmission, not the engine. There really isn't room on the engine to mount a starter unless something was done to the oil pan. Which means the only way to get a starter on this engine would have required custom machining and fabrication of some kind which would have really run the cost of the swap up. Furthermore, nobody has proven a 6-speed G6 transmission will hold up to the power of a V8 or a healthy V6 yet. And like blkcofy said, he wants this car to be as reliable as possible. I just don't think any affordable manual transmission would be as reliable as the 4T65-E HD auto trans that came with this engine.
Aside from that, it is unclear how well this LS4's PCM would work without the presence of the auto transmission's computer (and missing auto trans); and if the DoD would continue to work without communications with the TCM.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 09-15-2007).]
Now I have some cleanup to do in the eng compartment and with this cradle. After the initial cleaning is done I will start on test-fitting the LS4/4T65-E powerplant into the engine bay. Stay tuned...
I don't suppose anyone would be interested in a 2.8 V6 engine? It's got about 75,000 or so miles on her. I just hate throwing things away...I'm such a pack rat sometimes. But the only choice Ryan will have is sending her to the junk heap. Sad, sad, sad. Is there anyone that will give her a new home? She ran great from Cinci to Fort Wayne, +200miles, no over heating, averaging 80mph the whole way. Ryan can give an honest assessment on how she looks if there's any real interest. PM me.
Does anyone have any perspective and/or advice on brake packages? I've already put the vented front brake conversion kit from The Fiero Store on the car before the swap. It greatly improved braking, but that was with the 2.8L! I've reviewed the 11" kit from RCC Specialty for $1260. Does anyone have any experience with this kit? It seems like it would do the trick, I'm just cautious about dropping that much money this early in the swap process on brakes...unless I have to. Of course with bigger brakes, I'd need bigger wheels/tires...(darn it!!)
Ryan mentioned that some folks have had good experience with a Lebarron Brake kit? I'll do a search to see what I find, but has anyone used this? What I'm basically wanting is to make sure I can bring this puppy to a halt when needed, and I'm also going to have it on the track probably once to twice a year, so brake fade is important. This is NOT going to be a race car, but with 340hp, I'm just thinking I need some serious stopping power. I'm just curious about hearing from folks whom have had good experiences with upgraded brakes.
As far as brakes go, the grand am/lebaron swap is a very decent upgrade over a 84-87 brake setup. The 88 brakes should offer plenty of stopping power for you.
It doesn't interface with the hinge support, but it will interfere with it once the coil packs are installed (not to mention the water pump housing cover); so some clearancing of this hinge support will be required.
quote
As far as brakes go, the grand am/lebaron swap is a very decent upgrade over a 84-87 brake setup. The 88 brakes should offer plenty of stopping power for you.
This is an 87 car. Currently it has the factory rear brakes and the Grand Am vented upgrade on the front. I think what blkcofy was asking was if the 11.25" LeBaron brake upgrade was comparable to the 12" (corvette?) brake upgrade; and what the price difference was vs. perforance difference. I personally haven't messed around with anything more than the Grand Am brake upgrade so I couldn't offer any advice or price lists.
Assuming the grand am brakes give you 88 like performance, I would be happy with just running the grand am upgrade. To prevent high speed fade, some type of vented upgrade on the rear would be nice I would think.
So, I've spent the last 2 hours searching the net trying to figure out the 11.25" Grand Am/LeBaron/Caddie/Blazer/Wilwood Brake Kit!! Whew! Too much information!
What I have figured out, is that I should investigate this combo kit before investing $1300 in a turn key kit on the web. There's some good kits out there from RCC, WCF, and V8 Archie. But it sounds like I can get similar performance from this 11.25" kit if I went all four. So here's my question...if I have the Grand Am kit from The Fiero Store on the fronts, am I partially there? What do I need to get to upgrade to a 11.25" rotor and a multi piston caliper from Wilwood...or any other high performance lightweight caliper?
And for the rears, since I want to keep the e-brake functionality, and these are still stock rotors and calipers. Do I start from scratch to get them to 11.25" rotors? I think this is where the Caddie/Blazer stuff starts happening, in order to keep e-brake. There was alot of stuff about weird positioning of the brakets, and not being able to use certain brake lines, ect.
I'm trying to allow Ryan to stay focused on the engine swap, and try to figure out the right brake upgrade myself, but it sure seems easier to buy something off the shelf right now. Hopefully there is guidance out there for me!
Rear brakes only do about 15-20% of your braking anyway, so focusing on upgrading the rears, lends you less benifit than upgrading the front. As much as a pain as e-brakes are, I wouldnt attempt to put an ebrake on stock fiero brakes, let alone upgraded ones, so if I was you, i would leave stock rears, and then go radical up front.
Why are you not happy with your grand am swap already?
Rear brakes only do about 15-20% of your braking anyway, so focusing on upgrading the rears, lends you less benifit than upgrading the front. As much as a pain as e-brakes are, I wouldnt attempt to put an ebrake on stock fiero brakes, let alone upgraded ones, so if I was you, i would leave stock rears, and then go radical up front.
Why are you not happy with your grand am swap already?
I was very happy with the Grand Am upgrade up front w/ 135hp engine behind me. My assumption is that this won't be enough with 340hp behind me!!
Plus, I can pretty easily be categorized as 60% performance, 40% all looks and asthetics! So when I go from the stock 15" tires to the planned 18", I can't have those whimpy 9" rotors exposed! On the performance end, if I slam it to the floor in an aggressive/gingerly sort of way, I can lock the tires up without too much control loss at a 70mph to dead stop action, but I've not been 100% accurate with this manuver and that's with the now removed stock 2.8L engine. I do NOT want to count on a similar approach going from say 90mph to dead stop...which is what I'm figuring the same time and distance would be with the new engine. (no calculator here, just assumptions!)
I'll continue the search. My goal is to have a complete list of the parts needed to get me 11.25 rotors (cross drilled) in the front and back...keep my e-brake functionality as I live in a hilly area and I need e-brakes in winter snow (don't ask)!
All the searches I've found on Pennock capture alot of debating but very little "Brake Upgrade List for Dummies" information, which I think alot of folks other than myself would love to see. Don't get me wrong, reading some of the chastising, "my piston is better than yours" conversation is informational and sometimes even entertaining...but when you're actually in the middle of a swap and rebuild, sometimes you just want to hit the "easy button" and cut straight to the chase!
Once I have the complete list and a few options of GM Metric Calipers...Wilwood Calipers...or cleaned up calipers from the junk yard options, I can figure the final choices myself based on what I want to spend and what type of performance I want. Again...alot of work...fun work...but work nontheless. Which is making the off the shelf options looking more and more attractive! Thanks for the insight on the brake load on front vs. rear. This does make sense, as even on my BMW, the brake rotors on the front tires are slightly bigger than the rears, so the logic holds true on newer cars apparently.
Are you planing on relocating the coils on the front side of the motor? They look like they might interfer with the hinge box.
It looks like a ton of room but I have seen one installed in person and there isnt as much room as it looks like. There will be several obsticules to overcome with clearance issues with the LS4. It is going to have to be mounted very solid to insure it doesnt rock to much a come in contact with the firewall. Looks to be coming along and will be finished in not time. Who are you going to use for wiring the setup or are you going to do it yourself?
Thought I would share the work I did on the interior before handing off to Darth Fiero for the LS4 Swap. Leather seat kit from Mr. Mike's. I had Mike stitch the logo design from the gentleman who redesigned the horse logo and got eveyone all excited about new badges...still haven't received mine yet! But it looks nice on the seats. Then I color matched the Lambo Creme color and Pistol Grip Black from Mr. Mike w/ Sherwin Williams Automotive Interior paint and sprayed all the panels using a low volume pressure spray gun. New carpet, new black seat belts, new headliner and sunroof trim, and short shifter from Rodney's (though that all goes away with the paddle shift kit).
Here's what the interior looked like before painting...
And now after the interior work. I think it turned out pretty darn good. I told my wife all of the episodes of Unique Whips and Overhauling would pay off! I still have to paint the instrument panel housing, but will do that after I the swap...
New air vent corner panels were also painted, and I painted the ash tray door covers and even the carpet on the glove compartment pocket. Turned out pretty good too. The steering wheel was a MOMO steering wheel I picked up off ebay. I was able to mount it to keep the OEM Fiero horn. One day I'll figure out how to wire the horn to get rid of that darn metal pin, as it's not working well right now. I still have to order the Mr. Mike lower door panels (black to match seats) and visors (lambo creme to match seats) to finish the interior. I also recovered the fire wall in black vinyl.
