I am wondering is it worth going ahead and spending the extra cash to convert to DIS when I do the 7730 swap? Also can I do a DIS conversion without dropping the motor?
The DIS swap is for the motors that originally came with DIS as you need the crank position sensor and reluctor wheel to make it work. The Fireo 2.8L has no provision for either. Do you have the 3.4L engine? Then it's very easy to use the DIS. The wiring diagrams that Darth posted above show which wires go where. Here is mine. The coil pack is mounted on the trunk wall.
Originally posted by Mr.PBody: I am wondering is it worth going ahead and spending the extra cash to convert to DIS when I do the 7730 swap? Also can I do a DIS conversion without dropping the motor?
I would think yes, you can do it without dropping the motor. I am trying to think of why you would have to drop the motor for the DIS? my original plan when seeing this thread way back was to use DIS so I could also use a camaro intake manifold. but, another strong argument for DIS over Distributer is no more ignition module. and, if you've ever used a timing light on you car, you see how shakey the igntion is. whether that due to electronics or it mechanical - dont matter - DIS is steady.
DIS is simply more percise and accurate than distributor-based ignition timing. The DIS still uses an ignition module; it mounts under the coils.
As mentioned earlier, you CANNOT put DIS directly onto a stock Fiero 2.8 because there are no provisions for it. There are some aftermarket companies out there that make external crank triggers that mount on the balancer so you can run DIS. One that comes to mind is TCE; they can be reached via email at tce@woh.rr.com . Don't know if one of their setups is 100% compatible with the Fiero 2.8 and assy belt drive or not, so you will have to talk to them about it.
Getting rid of the distributor opens up the possibilities for you to use pretty much any intake manifold that will work on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 and clear the Fiero's deck lid. The 3.4 iron-head SFI Camaro/Firebird intake is the one that I like the most for an iron-head engine.
Yeah I didn't realise the 2.8L didn't couldn't be converted to DIS, I knew the 3.4 made it possible so I didn't know if the 2.8 would work or not. I will just stick to the distributer as I can barely afford the chip burn and knock sensor themselves right now. Pyrthian I asked about dropping the motor because I didn't know if I could install the crank trigger with the motor in the car. The plan is when I have more money is to either swap to L67 or a 3.4pr and if I do a PR (alot cheaper) I will go to DIS, but I think if I can come up with enough money to swap I will save up the extra and go 3800sc. Thats all a moot point tho because this is a 7730 thread, and I am broke. I am still trying to understand how to know where the Fiero wires go in the 7730 clips.
theres a PDF file with a basic run down. a link has been posted in this thread. but, for a more detailed appraoch, most better libraries have Service Manuals. you can go to the library, find the service manual for the vehicle you got the 7730 from, and make copies of the ECM pinout pages, and anything else you think will help (or check out the book...) and then find the service manual (or buy - good book to have) the service manual for your Fiero. again, copy the ECM pinout. you'll quickly notice that the wiring colors are mostly the same. this helps alot. the pics have exact locations. tho I fully understand the confusion - I have yet to actually do it myself - but, by the looks of things - I will be starting on my wiring harness NEXT WEEK. YAY! just waiting for my new piston (broke one during install...duh...) to finish my rebuild - should be today/tommarow - and have the motor back on the cradle this weekend - then the wiring begins. also cleaning up my wiring from my auto 2 manual swap, the clutch safety switch & backup lights.
I have the Beretta diagram from Darth, and I have the Fiero to Camaro list from Darth. He said to use the Camaro one since I am using a distributer. However on my connectors all I see are C and D on the two 32 pin connectors, and A and B on the 24 pin connector. I talked to another member with the swap and he said its all color matching, (I am not doubting you man) but is everyone sure I can do this? 88GT swap with a distributer. Some of the wires are the same, for example my 32 pin connectors both have a solid beige wire. And my 24 pin and one of my 32 pins both have a solid orange. Can anyone show me a chart that is a diagram of the connectors that tells what the holes are named on the 7730 connectors?
The 1st thing I did was figure out which plugs were which and labeled them with a permanent marker. Keep looking at the diagrams and the plugs and it will come to you. After they are labeled take one wire at a time and move it. The colors tend to match. You will see. Take your time and do it neat. Good luck...
Originally posted by Hudini: The DIS swap is for the motors that originally came with DIS as you need the crank position sensor and reluctor wheel to make it work. The Fireo 2.8L has no provision for either. Do you have the 3.4L engine? Then it's very easy to use the DIS. The wiring diagrams that Darth posted above show which wires go where. Here is mine. The coil pack is mounted on the trunk wall.
reluctor wheel? what/where is that? I thought just the crank sensor is enough?
The reluctor wheel is the part the crank sensor senses. The crank sensor is basically a metal detector, so something that has notches in it needs to be on the crank. The sensor sees the notches and tells the ECM. Typically one notch is different than the others, that way the ECM knows where TDC is on the crank.
The reluctor wheel is the part the crank sensor senses. The crank sensor is basically a metal detector, so something that has notches in it needs to be on the crank. The sensor sees the notches and tells the ECM. Typically one notch is different than the others, that way the ECM knows where TDC is on the crank.
JazzMan
ok, so, my 3.1 crank, with that wheel in the middle is in fact the relucter wheel, and the sensor in the block is enough? I was thinking maybe is was the little metal wheel with tabs which was mounted on the front of the crank behind the pulley.
I'm waiting to get the "revised" plate back in machining. Last week with Thanksgiving, was a short week, and this week we've been "swamped" (because last week was a short week)!
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road
well, my engine is almost all done, just waiting for a part. then onto the cradle the engine goes, and the wiring will begin. still hoping to be done before 2008 - but - its friggin cold out there.....
still got a Q tho - should I bother hooking up the cam sensor? seems kinda moot.
Well I filled Ryans whole form out and then went Christmas jewlery shopping, so I am pretty much cleared out. I am going to hold off on my swap until I get it out of storage and back here in Cincy, so I probably won't do it until January. I really wanted to get this done soon.
well, my engine is almost all done, just waiting for a part. then onto the cradle the engine goes, and the wiring will begin. still hoping to be done before 2008 - but - its friggin cold out there.....
still got a Q tho - should I bother hooking up the cam sensor? seems kinda moot.
The cam sensor is only used in SFI applications/computers. The 7730 is NOT SFI; but rather it is batch fire. So the cam sensor will not be used with the 7730 ECM at all.
Anyone in need of a 7730? I have one with a V6 Prom (89 Beretta GT) and all three connectors with 6 inches of wire in them. I am thinking I want to save for a 3800SC and am not sure I feel like putting the $80 (chip burn and knock sensor) and wiring into this right now. If you want it pm me an offer.
I'm looking for a 7730 prom chip, for a 91-92 Camaro (dizzy set up) with manual trans and 3.1 liter engine. I have a new built 3.2 engine. I believe this will give me the best starting point (.1 liter difference) for my swap. Before I send it out and have it tweaked. -Jason
[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 12-16-2007).]
No, I really don't need the ecm, that's the easy part and I can get them cheap enough. It's the prom I really need, 3.1 Camaros are hard to come by, especially the manual ones. I was just hoping that someone had a spare one. + 4 u for offering the advice. Thanks alot. -Jason
------------------ A coward dies a thousand deaths..................A soldier dies but once.
[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 12-16-2007).]
Anytime man, sorry I don't have what you are looking for, my scrapyard where I bought my 7730, shows a 3.1L camaro on their website but i couldn't find it. So I had to get a beretta GT chip.
I picked up a 7730 (reconditioned) from the local junkie from a 89 Beretta, but the Cal-Mem doesn't seem have the numbers visable. The large chip says DELCO ANKR 5246, the two smaller chips are covered by a board that's soldered in so I can't read the numbers. Will this work? If someone would show tell me how to post pictures, I could show you.
I picked up a 7730 (reconditioned) from the local junkie from a 89 Beretta, but the Cal-Mem doesn't seem have the numbers visable. The large chip says DELCO ANKR 5246, the two smaller chips are covered by a board that's soldered in so I can't read the numbers. Will this work? If someone would show tell me how to post pictures, I could show you.
Thanks Mr. PBody - That won't work for me -- (I've got a Mac)
Thanks Darth Fiero. So when I'm ready, just send this chip to you to reprogram (of course filling out your form)? It'll be for a stock 2.8 with egr and 5 speed.
Thanks Mr. PBody - That won't work for me -- (I've got a Mac)
Thanks Darth Fiero. So when I'm ready, just send this chip to you to reprogram (of course filling out your form)? It'll be for a stock 2.8 with egr and 5 speed.
When you are ready, shoot me an email at sinisterperformance@dtcc.cz28.com and I will send you that form to get the process started.
I've gone through pages 1,8,9, and 10 of this thread. I don't see where anyone has posted any MPG improvements or a little more solid performance improvements such as dyno run or at least a 1/4 mile run.
Is there something hiding in pages 2-7? Or could someone give some of that type of information?
No one claims any 0-60 gains, any mpg gains, or any hp gains. The Fiero ECM updates every second or 1.5 seconds, and uses a cold start injector. Which causes rough hunting idle. The 7730 uses a knock sensor, updates ever 0.1 second, has no cold start injector, and uses digital EGR. Its purely a swap for driveablility and run ability. Of the like 3 people that have it done they say possible MPG gains (the car the thread was started about gets damn good mpg for an auto), another person said the car feels like it pulls harder at high rpms. Once I finally do my swap (January-ish) I will do a before and after run on the G-Tech Pro RR and post the numbers here.
I am expecting my milegae to increase. I am also expecting better power in the 4500-5500 rpm area.
right now, I get just under 20 mpg with a 3.1 & 4.10 4-speed, & ADS Superchip. I know the chip is the main problem with my milage. next being the 4.10 gearing.
and, since I will be using DIS, I think the timing advance & the fuel deleivery will be ALOT better with the 7730 over the stock ECM in the upper RPMS.
but, since I have no existing baseline for my power - I will never know.....I was gonna dyno last spring, after I gutted my intake, but my dist gear failed, and that set off a chain reaction of internal failures....
The programs available for the 7730 are much more tunable than those available for the Fiero ECM.
You can't just liberate power through a computer. A stock engine's already tuned about as well as it can be tuned and still run well on any gas from any pump anywhere in the country. What little gains in power that can be had over the stock tune can only be had in relatively restrictive conditions like 91 octane only, runs poorly in hot weather, etc.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-18-2007).]
Originally posted by Will: The programs available for the 7730 are much more tunable than those available for the Fiero ECM.
You can't just liberate power through a computer. A stock engine's already tuned about as well as it can be tuned and still run well on any gas from any pump anywhere in the country. What little gains in power that can be had over the stock tune can only be had in relatively restrictive conditions like 91 octane only, runs poorly in hot weather, etc.
yup. but, I always was under the impression that the stock chip & ecm just dont do well after 4500 RPM. not sure if this is a ECM limit, a chip limit, or just a programming limit, since the intake dont let anymore air thru anyways. I expect there is also timing advance limit when using a distributer, but, I dont think a OHV motor will ever acheive RPM's to hit that limit. you can only adjust the timing within range of the rotor hitting the post, after all.
I believe that there will be hp and fuel milage increases from what I have read. Here are my reasons why:
1. The new ECU incorporates a knock sensor. This usually means that the ECU will advance timing a lot more than a ECU that does not have a knock sensor. Once it sees knock, it will then back off the timing just enough to stop knocking. The end result is more power.
2. The ECU updates much quicker which means that real time adjustments will be quicker and smoother. The stock ECU updating every 1.5 seconds is the very bad for high rpm performance. At 4500 rpms the engine rotated 112.5 times between ECU updates. At 10 times per second only 7.5 rotations go by between updates. Combine that with a knock sensor and the ECU can be much more aggresive with fuel and timing since it can correct 15 times faster than the old ECU. This means it can run higher timing advance and leaner A/F ratios resulting in more power. How much more power is my question. I have no doubt that there is more power, though.
3. The electric EGR valve can increase gas milage. To understand this, you have to recall how and why the EGR system works. It reduces emissions by recirculating exhaust gasses into the engine. Those exhaust gasses have much lower oxygen content and in effect, they reduce the amount of air going into the engine during cruising. Therefore, it reduces the gasoline consumption. A drawback to having a vacuum acutated system is that you do not have fine control over the EGR valve. The amount it is open depends strictly on how much vacuum your engine is drawing. With an electric EGR valve, the ECU can control precisely how much exhaust gas is being recirculated and can therefore reduce the amount of fuel going into the engine. This should result in higher gas milage.
So my question is simply, how much power and gas milage will increase. I'm going to take a guess here and I will predict 5-8 more hp and about 2-3 more MPG city and 3-4 more MPG highway.
[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 12-18-2007).]
I would say 5-8 HP might not be out of the question. Remember, if there were significant gains to be made by shaping the timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM, GM would have mapped the stock ECM with appropriate curves. I think the fact that they chose to develop the stock program with flat timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM means that they didn't think there was anything more to get in that part of the map. I believe this is a hardware limitation. The 2.8 isn't doing anything but making noise in that RPM range.
I think that 1 MPG on the highway is about all you'd see from the digital EGR.
My Formula would return 27.5 mpg on the highway at 80 mph or so. A 3-4 mpg gain would put it at 30.5-31.5. Fuel mileage gains from EGR come from reduced pumping losses, which occur through the reduction of manifold vacuum. I just don't think there's that much pumping loss in that engine at that power level.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-18-2007).]
I really wanted to get this done soon.
