"Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game.
while slightly inconvienent, mailing in the datalogs and waiting for the chip works rather well. ive had my motor tuned by him, if you pull the plugs out today youll c theyre nice and amber and very clean. i dont think theres much to 'dial in' but theres alot of knowledge which i and most people dont have. they do a great job.
Some people like to get it "close enough" the easy and effective way, and that's fine. Others like to learn to dial it in themselves to any degree they desire, and that's also fine. One way isn't necessarily better than the other.
On the software side, I use Tunerpro RT for the Camaro and I love it. It's free, but I gave Mark a donation anyway. http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/
The hardware side of things comes from Craig Moates, as he has everything in one place for reasonable prices and I've personally never had a problem with his customer support. There are several options to interface the '730 depending on what exactly you want to do with it. http://www.moates.net/
The two work together a bit to ensure compatibility for most of the stuff, which is also nice. There are a few other options, but this is what I and many others have successfully done.
Originally posted by Will: I would say 5-8 HP might not be out of the question. Remember, if there were significant gains to be made by shaping the timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM, GM would have mapped the stock ECM with appropriate curves. I think the fact that they chose to develop the stock program with flat timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM means that they didn't think there was anything more to get in that part of the map. I believe this is a hardware limitation. The 2.8 isn't doing anything but making noise in that RPM range.
I think that 1 MPG on the highway is about all you'd see from the digital EGR.
My Formula would return 27.5 mpg on the highway at 80 mph or so. A 3-4 mpg gain would put it at 30.5-31.5. Fuel mileage gains from EGR come from reduced pumping losses, which occur through the reduction of manifold vacuum. I just don't think there's that much pumping loss in that engine at that power level.
I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains. I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.
that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what.
"Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game.
There's nothing wrong with doing the tuning yourself. In fact, I encourage it; espeically for those who have highly modified or boosted applications. I even have a whole page on my website devoted to helping the DIY'er figure out how to get started and do the work themselves.
Having said that, there are people who simply don't want to spend the money to buy all of the hardware and software they need to do their own tuning. Or perhaps they don't have the time to learn how to do it themselves. Regardless of the reason, I provide that service the best way I can thru mail order; and that's by requesting scan data from the customer should it be needed.
-ryan
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions | www.gmtuners.com
I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains. I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.
that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what.
The high RPM power limitations of the stock 2.8 have been discussed. My $0.02 on the matter is the MPFI intake used on the Fiero 2.8 was designed during an era at GM in which they were looking to make the most power out of the engine without having to rev it to the moon. This allowed them to save money by using cheaper valvetrain and internal engine components. It is well known in the performance automotive circles that in order for engines to survive repeated high RPM operation, they need to have very good (and usually expensive) parts installed in the valvetrain and bottom end. GM in the 80's wasn't in the best financial shape, so they cut corners everywhere they could. EFI was a must-do because of the emissions regulations.
The biggest problem with the stock 2.8's power limitations is the long runner design of the intake, the restrictive cylinder head ports, and the minimal size and restrictive design of the exhaust system. All three parts of the engine's components are responsible for the power limitations of the engine. So you simply cannot just replace one component out of these three and expect the engine to produce a lot more power; or produce that power higher in the RPM band. The Iron-Head 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 engines never produced good upper-RPM power. In fact, concerning pushrod V6 engines; we didn't see a decent upper-RPM power producing engine come from GM until the introduction of the 3100 V6 in 1994. As designs progressed, the upper plenums of these pushrod engines came with shorter intake runner lengths (as well as larger diameters). The latest offerings for the pushrod 60 deg V6 are quite impressive for their size and design:
So basically what this all boils down to is the power limitations of the stock Fiero 2.8 engine aren't because of the factory ECM. Now the reason for the "upgrade" to the 7730 ECM is because the 7730 is more "hacked" than the Fiero units; is faster; is more capable; and can just plain do a lot more than the Fiero ECM. One of the more interesting features of the 7730 when using the $88 code mask is there is a "highway mode fuel" function that leans out the AFR periodically during certain steady cruising situations. This can increase fuel economy by 2 or 3 mpg (estimated) depending on the driving habits of the owner. This system only kicks in during light cruising loads so don't expect it to work if you are flying down the interstate at 80mph.
The owner of the car I originally did this swap for told me the best fuel economy he has seen out of his Fiero since the upgrade was 40mpg. But you need to keep in mind I also installed a 440T4 auto OD trans with 2.84 gearing into his car at the same time so his case is probably the best you will ever see. His specs are far from being optimal for best performance but that wasn't what he was concerned with.
Originally posted by Gwain: I'm waiting to get the "revised" plate back in machining. Last week with Thanksgiving, was a short week, and this week we've been "swamped" (because last week was a short week)!
We're setting up to run the revised EGR plates now. I'm probably going to make about 5 or 6 in total. I feel pretty secure the redesign will finalize this thing, but of course we'll have Darth Fiero give it the acid test and final blessing.
I'm going to make the extras available at $25 to anybody who wants one. After that, $35. I don't really expect a big market for these, and I'm not really set up to market them myself. I hope someone will pick up that ball after we'ver proofed them.
I'll post when the sample goes to Darth.
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road 86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
OK, guys, what I need from all of you is PM me with a mailing address.
These things will fit in an envelope, so I'll try to get them out before the Christmas break.
As to payment, send me a check or money order, once you're confident they'll work for you. I'm not set up as a retail outlet, so I can't handle credit cards, or Paypal or the like.
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road 86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
OK, guys, what I need from all of you is PM me with a mailing address.
These things will fit in an envelope, so I'll try to get them out before the Christmas break.
As to payment, send me a check or money order, once you're confident they'll work for you. I'm not set up as a retail outlet, so I can't handle credit cards, or Paypal or the like.
Just to bring everyone up to speed on the EGR Adapter plate.
I've mailed out the updated plate to Darthfiero for a final fit check. I'm pretty confident that if the changes he sent me were all that was needed, these revised plates should be ready to go.
For all of you who have PM'd me with mailing address info. I've sent your plates out as well. If Darthfiero posts that they're good to go, then you'll already have yours in hand. If for some reason he feels there are additional changes to be made, then all of you will have some interesting paper weights!
Rather than PM each of you back individually, I put a note in with the plate as to how you can pay me, etc. if everything works out.
Waiting to hear like everybody else.
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road 86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
hey darth i just recived my ecu with wires and memcal the memcal chip # delco ATWY 7624 its out of a 89 beretta 2.8 5spd its a 01227730 is this going to work for my turbo app?
hey darth i just recived my ecu with wires and memcal the memcal chip # delco ATWY 7624 its out of a 89 beretta 2.8 5spd its a 01227730 is this going to work for my turbo app?
Should; email me with specifics of your project and I'll let you know for sure.
sp1@gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-08-2008).]
so what do you need to know there is a lot of stuff on the form you sent me jamin
Fill out everything on the form that is applicable to your vehicle/what you need the chip for. If you need help understanding what a question is asking on the form, PM or email me for assistance.
If so, please list amount of boost or N²O shot: __________________
Please list what temperature THERMOSTAT you are using: __________ °F
Injector Size: __________ lb/hr –or- □ Stock to engine
Ignition System Type: □ Distributor □ Distributorless/Coil Pack
Rear end or overall gear ratio: __________:1 Tire Size: _________________
Speed Sensor: □ Stock to trans -or- Vehicle Origin: ____________________
Current Speedometer Error: _______________________ (+ or - % of actual)
Please list any and all modifications to the engine other than what was factory equipment: (Aftermarket heads? Cam? Porting and polishing? Aftermarket intake and/or throttle body?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------- GENERAL PREFERENCES
Will this vehicle be emissions tested? □ YES □ NO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- VATS (Pass-key, Theft Deterrent) System: □ ENABLE □ DISABLE □ N/A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EGR System: □ ENABLE □ DISABLE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EVAP System: □ ENABLE □ DISABLE □ N/A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- KNOCK SENSOR: □ PRESENT □ NOT PRESENT ----------------------------------------------------------------------- A.I.R. Pump Emissions System □ ENABLE □ DISABLE □ N/A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Air Conditioning System: □ PRESENT □ NOT PRESENT ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Type of O2 Sensor used: □ HEATED □ NON-HEATED -----------------------------------------------------------------------
# of Electric Cooling Fans controlled by this computer: □ 0 □ 1 □ 2 If there is only 1 fan, is it single or dual speed?: □ single □ dual
Would you like us to automatically set the fan on/off temps to work best with the thermostat you have installed on this engine? □ YES. (If not, fill out the following information)
Cooling fan #1 turn ON temp: _______ °F / turn OFF: _______ °F
Cooling fan #2 turn ON temp: _______ °F / turn OFF: _______ °F
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Would you like Highway Fuel Mode (Lean Cruise) Enabled? □ Yes(if avail) □ No
(Highway mode fuel is a function some ECMs have that periodically runs the engine’s fuel ratio leaner at steady cruising speeds in order to maximize fuel economy. Not all ECMs have this function; and it should not be enabled in towing/hauling or heavy vehicle applications.)
Shift Firmness: □ INCREASE □ DECREASE □ LEAVE AT STOCK SETTINGS (applies only to 4T65-E, 4L60-E, and 4L80-E transmissions)
Torque Management? □ ENABLE □ DISABLE [Some computers that support electronic auto transmissions have a function in the programming that cuts timing during the shifts and initial acceleration. NOTE: GM uses torque management to smooth the shifts and help reduce stress on the transmission and drivetrain. Disabling this function may subject the transmission and drivertrain to greater stress.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ADDITIONAL INFORMATION Are you currently experiencing any drivability or running problems?
If so, please list amount of boost or N²O shot: __________________
Please list what temperature THERMOSTAT you are using: __________ °F
Injector Size: __________ lb/hr –or- □ Stock to engine
Ignition System Type: □ Distributor □ Distributorless/Coil Pack
Rear end or overall gear ratio: __________:1 Tire Size: _________________
Speed Sensor: □ Stock to trans -or- Vehicle Origin: ____________________
Current Speedometer Error: _______________________ (+ or - % of actual)
Please list any and all modifications to the engine other than what was factory equipment: (Aftermarket heads? Cam? Porting and polishing? Aftermarket intake and/or throttle body?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------- GENERAL PREFERENCES
Will this vehicle be emissions tested? □ YES □ NO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EGR System: □ ENABLE □ DISABLE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- EVAP System: □ ENABLE □ DISABLE □ N/A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- KNOCK SENSOR: □ PRESENT □ NOT PRESENT ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Air Conditioning System: □ PRESENT □ NOT PRESENT ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Type of O2 Sensor used: □ HEATED □ NON-HEATED -----------------------------------------------------------------------
# of Electric Cooling Fans controlled by this computer: □ 0 □ 1 □ 2 If there is only 1 fan, is it single or dual speed?: □ single □ dual
Would you like us to automatically set the fan on/off temps to work best with the thermostat you have installed on this engine? □ YES. (If not, fill out the following information)
Cooling fan #1 turn ON temp: _______ °F / turn OFF: _______ °F
Cooling fan #2 turn ON temp: _______ °F / turn OFF: _______ °F
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Would you like Highway Fuel Mode (Lean Cruise) Enabled? □ Yes(if avail) □ No
(Highway mode fuel is a function some ECMs have that periodically runs the engine’s fuel ratio leaner at steady cruising speeds in order to maximize fuel economy. Not all ECMs have this function; and it should not be enabled in towing/hauling or heavy vehicle applications.)
how do i wire in a dis ignition sys to my 3.4l and what sensors do i need?
First the engine you are using (in your case a 3.4L) must already have provisions in the block for the crank sensor and reluctor wheel notches machined out of the crank for the crank sensor to read. The crank sensor connects directly to the ignition module via a small, seperate wiring harness (twisted pair of wires). The ignition module has 2 other plugs on it; one connects to ignition power and ground, and the other connects to the tach and computer. For wiring up the DIS coil pack to the 7730 ECM, use 1991-93 Chevy Beretta 3.1L ECM wiring diagrams; which you can download from my website.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-23-2007).]
so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?
Here's the latest update on the EGR Adapter Plates.
I've sent the revised sample plate to DarthFiero and we'll all be waiting for his evaluation. I'm reasonably confident we should be good with the changes.
I've also shipped out 6 additional plates, to those who contacted me with address information. At this point I've used up all the extra plates I ran. Since the job is still set-up, we'll probably run some more after the holiday break and put them on the shelf for now.
Anybody has any questions or issues, PM me.
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road 86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?
From what I've read it seems the two ECM's work the same but have slightly different pinouts. The 7727 has 4 connectors and the 7730 has 3 connectors. Anyone know where to find the 7727 pinout diagram?
I am going to use the digital EGR that came off the '95 Camaro 3.4L engine I swapped using a 7730 ECM.
so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?
Yes the 7727 and 7730 are virtually the same computer. But the difference is in the case and in the computer connectors. The 7727 has a sealed case and uses different connectors and wiring terminals that are sealed against the weather so it can be mounted in the engine compartment.
PROBLEM: The stock Fiero 2.8 harness computer wiring terminals are NOT compatible with the 7727 ECM. So if you wanted to use your stock Fiero wiring harness with the 7727 ECM, you would need to cut off the wiring terminals on your harness and either get the correct terminals and crimp them on or splice in wires that have the correct wiring terminals already. Either way will require a significant amount of work. It's better just to use a 7730 ECM. If you are having trouble finding a used 7730 ECM, try: http://www.car-part.com and search for an ENGINE COMPUTER out of a 1988-93 Chevy Beretta car equipped with the 2.8 or 3.1 V6 engine.
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:
From what I've read it seems the two ECM's work the same but have slightly different pinouts. The 7727 has 4 connectors and the 7730 has 3 connectors. Anyone know where to find the 7727 pinout diagram?
Yes, you can download the pinouts from my website. The 7727 was used in 1988-92 GM W-body cars (Lumina, Grand Prix, Regal, Cutlass Supreme) equipped with the 2.8 or 3.1 V6 engine.
ah well if its really different then never mind. i figured having a weather sealed one would actually be better since it would hopefully be made stronger and more durable. as for repinning the ecm to work, with the 7730 i can just pull out the pins in my ecm connector and put em into the 7730 connectors? i was anticipating just cutting and soldering the whole thing but that would be a whole lot better.
megafreakindeth said: as for repinning the ecm to work, with the 7730 i can just pull out the pins in my ecm connector and put em into the 7730 connectors?
I posted this on page 9, but I'll dredge it up again:
Re-pinning the ECM connectors is simple and easy, but is time consuming. You can remove the pins from the housings using a sewing needle or a paperclip. Then, using Darth's instructions, insert the pins into the appropriate spots in the 7730 ECM connectors.
Also, in case anyone was wondering, my stalling issue was no fault of the ECM. The throttle body had some slack, so it didn't always close completely. The inconsistent TPS readings at idle were confusing the ECM.
The revised EGR adapter plate showed up today. A test fit using parts I had here revealed the corrections made to the design of this unit was what it needed. Everybody should be good to go with the revised EGR adapter plates. In case I forgot to mention it, you will need to remove the factory Fiero 2.8 EGR mounting studs, clean out the threads in the crossover pipe (M8 x 1.25 metric thread) and use new allen-head metric cap bolts with this adapter so the heads of the bolts clear the digital EGR as shown below...
Now that we got that solved, something has come up that I think is worth mentioning in this thread. I have been contacted by a few people who say they are confused with the wiring terminal designations used on some 7730 ECMs. The confusion stems from the fact that on some wiring diagrams a terminal may be referred to as "A11" but on others it is referred to as "BA11". First let me assure everyone that all 7730 ECMs are the same. GM just changed the designations for PIN ID's for these ECMs starting in the 90's.
To break this new terminal designation down for everyone; lets use the example: "BA10"...
1st letter (B) = connector color 2nd letter (A) = "A" side of the connector (A and B are usually used to describe 24 pin connectors; C, D, E, and F are usually used to describe 32 pin connectors) 3rd number (10) = position of the terminal in that side of the connector.
To give some examples: BA3 refers to the 24pin black connector, terminal A3. BC2 refers to the 32pin black connector, terminal C2. When you see something like GE4, then that refers to the 32pin green connector, terminal E4. Or if you see YF3, then that refers to the 32 pin yellow connector, terminal F3. The 7730 accepts both YELLOW and GREEN connectors.
Hopefully this explaination clears up some of the confusion.
For those of you who have not received your EGR plate yet (you'll know that you're one if you haven't received it):
I did not quite anticipate the demand, and did not run enough to cover all interested parties initially!
We're doing another run this week to cover the rest of you, and put some on the shelf for later. I tried to ship in the order I received addresses. Sorry for the delays.
------------------ Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
84 SE son's car, loaded 85 Coup w/V6 transplant 85 GT newly on the road 86 SE/GT conversion just bought - big plans!
Thanks.
