My 88 4 banger is leaking from the main seals and a perfect swap is this motor and trans.
Factory option G85 Limited Slip, final drive ratio 4.05 The shifter will be a simple affair, I plan on using the stock getrag cables and shifter. This baby holds 6 quarts of mobile 1. I need to fab a engine mount some were around here. As you can see from the last two images there are not any good meaty bolts on the bottom to use as anchers.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
There has been a lot of interest in the G6 6-speed transmission. The F35 5-speed on this motor is a good option also. The limited slip is just gold. Later on I'll look into making an adapter to mate one of these to a SBC using an Archie flywheel. The axles from the ion/cobolts looks to fit right into the fiero.
The fiero outboard CV joint (mit nut) vs. the cobolt. Same spline. Cobolt axle in a fiero hub. The inboard CV joints, fiero on bottom. The cobolt (top) is bigger, the dia. is 1.175 with the spline count at 27@1.150" OD, all though the tulip is smaller diameter. The fiero getrag starts at 1.375 then down to 1.07 with the spline at 1.05".
The left and right side inboard splines are the same. I only have the left axle from the cobalt and it measures 23" end to end when fully compressed. When the engine is in the cradle and the axle is in place in the relaxed state, It looks like the right side needs to be about an inch shorter if everthing is the same. I'm still waiting on the right side axle to find out if I can use both cobolt axles unmolested.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
The ecotec has many cool things going for it like all the accessories bolt to the block for a nice tight package. But the a/c pump is mounted very low and runs into the exhuast hump on the front cross member.
Roger Thelin (352) 375-8259 makes a kit to bolt in the 2.2L ecotec with the F23 5-speed be replacing the old cross member with one of his design.
The 2.0L has a deeper pan and the F35 is also a differant monster from the F23 so new brackets will be needed. I am using his front cross member and will be using factory style front & rear mounts.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Let me be the first to welcome you to the road of the ecotec fiero
Good luck, I believe you will be one of the first for the LSJ and the limited slip tranny to top it off!
You may run into some probs with the supercharger hitting the firewall, WTFB setup will be closer than mine, because of the lean the stock mounts will give you but I have only a small amount of room between the intake manifold and firewall and that room might non-existant with a supercharger.
Roger's instruction are cut the vertical on the line that connects the bolt holes, the dotted line shows the crack that goes completly thru, so the more acute angle is what gets cut.
This shows the new cross member welded to the old one before I cut that diaginal line.
This is the other side before I cut off the old cross member. Doing it this way keeps the frame straight with little effort. Hat's off to Roger!
This POS is what I'm welding with. The cheap import mig was given to me because they broke the plastic wire drive the 2nd week after they bought it at auction. No vender, no parts. That was 7 years ago. The torch and wire feeder on top of it is an old ESAB unit, like 20 years old and runs off the welder open circuit voltage and came with 50 lbs of flux core wire in it. It has it's own contactor in it to keep it safe when your not welding with it. I had to wire the mig so it on all the time to power the wire feeder. Getting it to work was fun but it's not what you call a consitant good welder. At least it was free and does'nt need gas.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Here's the engine up on the work table in the subframe.
The engine is tilted back to the rear so that the oil pan bottom is flat. I may weld some temp straps on and fix it in place and do a check fit in the engine bay before I get too deep into the brakets.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Ooo. Finally a build that I've been drooling over forever. Can't wait to see the updated pics. This is a thread to follow.
Little side question: what's the hp on that engine, it seems to me that nobody can make up their mind on what the actual hp # is. I know GM underrated the engine on purpose, but it only adds to the confusion. This engine is out of the Cobalt SS, correct? (simple short answer would suffice, don't want the thread to go off topic into a discussion)
This engine came out of a 2006 Saturn with 8000 miles on it. GM advertise 205 hp at the crank but a lot of people who have dynoded their cars are finding 210 to 215 at the wheels. GM also offers 3 staged upgrades to bring it up to around 300 hp.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
if you get rid of the jackshaft assembly,will the stock fiero axles fit right in ? as i understand it ,the jackshaft is just to help eliminate torque steer ,not a problem with a rear drive car .nice build ,keep the pics coming !
if you get rid of the jackshaft assembly,will the stock fiero axles fit right in ? as i understand it ,the jackshaft is just to help eliminate torque steer ,not a problem with a rear drive car .nice build ,keep the pics coming !
No, this tranny takes the same axle spline configuration as the F40, they are both originally Saab transmissions and more than likely the F35 has the same offsetting of the final drive carrier that calls for different length output axle stubs at the tranny, in other words you can't fully insert an axle shaft in the right side of the transmission so the jackshaft would be manditory.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-19-2007).]
Joseph is correct, the fiero axles will not fit into the jackshaft or the transmission either. Good news is the cobolt axles fit the fiero hubs. The F23 transmission will except the fiero splines. I think both F23 & F35 are wider at the differantial and would make the long fiero axle too long.
At this point I could use 2 RH cobolt axles to make the swap work. I'm hoping the LH cobolt axle is a little shorter. I'll should be getting one next week.
The published torque ratings of the new transmissions.
F23 5-speed 170 ft-lbs F35 5-speed 258 ft-lbs F40 6-speed 295 ft-lbs I not sure what the getrag is rated as, 170 ft-lbs?
Does anybody know if the F40 have the same bell housing bolt patern as the F35 & F23?
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Joseph is correct, the fiero axles will not fit into the jackshaft or the transmission either. Good news is the cobolt axles fit the fiero hubs. The F23 transmission will except the fiero splines. I think both F23 & F35 are wider at the differantial and would make the long fiero axle too long.
At this point I could use 2 RH cobolt axles to make the swap work. I'm hoping the LH cobolt axle is a little shorter. I'll should be getting one next week.
The published torque ratings of the new transmissions.
F23 5-speed 170 ft-lbs F35 5-speed 258 ft-lbs F40 6-speed 295 ft-lbs I not sure what the getrag is rated as, 170 ft-lbs?
Does anybody know if the F40 have the same bell housing bolt patern as the F35 & F23?
The jackshaft is the only thing that properly inserts into the right side of the F35 and F40. Both Cobalt axles will be the same length, it would defeat the purpose of the Jackshaft for them to not be. As for the tranny torque ratings, I believe they can be increased because they are based on a max vehicle weight as high as 5000 lbs particularly for the F35, I believe that's why GM lists a max gearbox torque and max engine torque for the transmission so that the two combined do not exceed the strength of the gearbox, the lighter the load that has to be moved the less stress on the gearbox. So subtract the weight of the Fiero from the max weight the transmission is rated for, calculate the # of lbs per lb/ft for the max weight the tranny is rated for, then divide that into the difference of the vehicle weights and you should be able to add that to the above rating for your application. I believe it was near 350 lb/ft for the F40.
The Saab F40 may have the same bellhousing as the Cobalt. The G6 version of course has the V6 pattern.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]
Are you saying that the F35 axles (with the half shaft) may work with the F40 and the Fiero Spindles? That would be nice. A little O/T, but it would be nice
the fiero axles fit right in to the F23 and are the right length .the slight difference in width is made up for by the amount of in and out movement available on the stock axles .there are 3 of us who have done this already .i doubt that the fiero getrag is rated the same as the F23 .even if it was ,its still 20 years older .use the F23 and save all the rebuilding costs.
Are you saying that the F35 axles (with the half shaft) may work with the F40 and the Fiero Spindles? That would be nice. A little O/T, but it would be nice
The F35 and F40 are both Saab Transaxles originally and take the same axle spline configuration. The intermediate shafts are different in GM cars but the same on the Saab, the Cobalt has a female ended intermediate shaft like the Saabs, the G6 uses a male ended intermediate shaft so you would have to make a mounting plate for the Cobalt intermediate shaft to work properly with the F40 mounted to a non Ecotec engine which will not have the mounting bosses for the Ecotec intermediate shaft in the proper location.
The other issue which has been aluded to already is the axle length, You may be able to get away with using the complete axle set from the Cobalt on the F40 in the Fiero by repositioning the assembly since the F40 axle output seal is 2 inches closer to the left frame rail and one inch further away from the right frame rail in the Fiero compared to the Getrag, so positioning it one inch further to the right will leave you with about 1" less plunge depth but that all depends on the drivetrain assembly height on the cradle and the length of the axle with the Fiero outboard joint cup installed since the bearings, cage and race are interchangeable. If the Cobalts joining axle is 32 spline instead of 33 like the G6s you can swop the complete Fiero outboard joint on to the axle.
Fiero wheel base 93.4" Cobalt wheel base 103" G6 wheelbase 112.3"
Thanks for what you have posted here CCFIERO350, it has helped the F40 swop along tremendously due to what I suspected and have now confirmed through your posts after finding that both transmissions were original Saab units and used the same intermediate shaft on some Saab cars.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]
those stats are irrelevant for the transmission, you looking for track width, even then scrub radius and offset effect it.
Those specs are not intended to note the transmission but the fact that the axles are different lengths because of it. I was intending to list the actual track specs and got it all mixed up and listed the wrong specs.
Here are the widths that will better represent the actual track G6 70.4 Cobalt 67.9 Fiero 68.9
I hope to acquire some Cobalt axles this week for some comparisons in hopes that they will be the right length for the job.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]
Very Interesting and informative post! High technology lightweight engine with great horsepower potential but IMO a difficult swap for the experts. Makes you wonder if Fieros would be using an Ecotec if they were being made today. Looking forward to hearing about the road tests.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I don't think it's all that diificult, it's just uncommon. Roger is selling kits now and the 2.2L ecotec and F23 are very common place and can be had in the $500 range.
I think after a few of these get done and along the way, refined parts, procedures and knowledge base will increase in quality and affordabilty. And it will become more common then the Quad 4 swap before long.
One of the main reasons for doing the 4 banger is that at 2.0L I will race in a class that I may have a chance at winning something. And the LSJ engine and LSD transmission combo really are just incredibable.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I don't think it's all that diificult, it's just uncommon. Roger is selling kits now and the 2.2L ecotec and F23 are very common place and can be had in the $500 range.
I think after a few of these get done and along the way, refined parts, procedures and knowledge base will increase in quality and affordabilty. And it will become more common then the Quad 4 swap before long.
One of the main reasons for doing the 4 banger is that at 2.0L I will race in a class that I may have a chance at winning something. And the LSJ engine and LSD transmission combo really are just incredibable.
Exactly why I ditched my 3.8 for the ecotec. The 3.8, although torquey and not a bad motor put me a class that I was just wayyy underpowered. I cannot wait to race mine again
when i first put in my ecotec ,i had it running in less than 6 weeks .there are a lot of statements like "it wont run without the stock hvac controls "or "if you dont have the donor cars radio hooked up the motor wont fire" or "the passlock system is impossible to get around "all these statements have been proven false .the only thing difficult about this swap is if you dont have all the donor car wiring harness and want to make the stock fiero guages interface with the ecotec harness . good luck with that one but i think rodo did that on his auto swap already .i used the cavalier harness and guage cluster because i dont care about a stock look because other than the body ,my whole drivetrain is modified any way .i cant wait to see how the supercharged engine runs .i am having lots of fun with my turbo set up .i have owned lots of fast cars and i am not kidding when i say this is the fastest car i have ever owned .the lighter weight and quick reving make it hard to keep my foot out of it .i cant imagine how fast fieroturbos setup will be .his motor is almost full race .
I've done a lot of research on the electronic side of things. The LSJ ecu is differant from the regular N/A ecotecs. My goal was to use the factory harness and ecu as a stand alone unit. SC cobolts only have 4 gauges, tach, speedo, fuel and boost. Very nice looking I may add. Then it has a cool two line alpha/numeric display that tells you the rest. All the guages are diven from either the fast bus or slow bus. There is a bcu (body control unit) that takes care of every thing in the cabin and talks to the ecu thru the same buses. This can be done but I will probably go with an after market engine controler just because it's quicker and I will not loose as much billable time.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Very Interesting and informative post! High technology lightweight engine with great horsepower potential but IMO a difficult swap for the experts. Makes you wonder if Fieros would be using an Ecotec if they were being made today. Looking forward to hearing about the road tests.
I would bet money on that!! Ecotec is GM's global powerplant, and a great engine at that I might add. I used to think that the Honda engines were much better than the Ecotec (was very disappointed to find out that the U.S. spec Ariel Atom has an Ecotec powerplant), right until my friends (some of them are avid import fans) and some research convinced me that the Ecotec is an awesome engine. It runs much smoother and is better balanced than Honda engines too.
Speaking of: I think Loyde at FastFieros is either planning-, or already did similar swaps including the tranny. I'm sure he'd be willing to help out too.
Yay!!! We're a couple steps closer to make the Ecotec a common swap for Fieros. -M
One thing I need to make clear, if your going 100% standalone (ie no stock computers at all) you (we) need to figure out how to make the alternator put out at its full potential. It is controlled by the stock computer, and without it connected to it, it will only charge at about 11.2 volts, with all the fiero accessories about 10.7volts. Its just enough to run everything on the car at once, but it wouldnt crank it back over after I had it running for a while. Just to let ya know
The alternator are a little smarter then they used to be. The LSJ uses a higher ouput version then the L61 but uses the same control signals. The small 2-wire plug that goes into the alternator turns it on.
On the L61, Pin 1, OG color, is Generator Turn On Signal, needs 5 Volts to make it generate voltage. The ECU controls voltage with a PWM 15-87% duty cycle. Pin2, GY/WH color, is Generator Field Duty Cycle Signal, is a PWM output to tell the ECU how much load is on and to adjust idle speed compensate for high electrical loads.
Tying pin 1 to +5volts will turn it on, I do not know if the internal regulator will take over and maintian the battery.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I've hard that you can bolt a Throttle body from the LS V-8's right up to the supercharged eco. Is that true? If it so i got one here collecting dust, it's from my LS4.
------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9 ARE NOT SBC's
im really excited to see another ecotec swap. im awaiting enuf guys to do this one that i might be able to attempt it myself. right now the skill level is too great for me. ill be watching this one develop jon
------------------ I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
I've hard that you can bolt a Throttle body from the LS V-8's right up to the supercharged eco. Is that true? If it so i got one here collecting dust, it's from my LS4.
The throttle body is an issue. The LSJ uses the fly by wire technology and the stand alone EFI units do not incorporate this. I have not researched much in this direction. Can you measure the bolt patern and bore diameter?
Thanks,
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
by the pictures it looks like the engine / tranny wiring harness is all complete .can you go and get the donor cars wiring harness ? the ecu and bcu ,large fusebox ,small fuse box and all the relays and connectors are all incorporated into the package .you wont be able to make your saturn guage cluster work without the bcu .the harness it connects to comes out of the bcu .also does the drive by wire incorporate the throttle position sensor ? if it does then it probably goes through the bcu as well . my swap was very easy to do because i got all the factory stuff out of the donor car . if you are worried about not wasting billable time ,spend the money and get the rest of the donor car's parts that you will need .since you are starting with a four banger ,you need a new fuel pump too .you might as well use the one that was meant for it .when you have all the factory parts , it all becomes plug and play .
The throttle body is an issue. The LSJ uses the fly by wire technology and the stand alone EFI units do not incorporate this. I have not researched much in this direction. Can you measure the bolt patern and bore diameter?
Thanks,
The LS4 is fly by wire I can measure the bolt pattern and post up a few pics too.
------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9 ARE NOT SBC's
by the pictures it looks like the engine / tranny wiring harness is all complete .can you go and get the donor cars wiring harness ? the ecu and bcu ,large fusebox ,small fuse box and all the relays and connectors are all incorporated into the package .you wont be able to make your saturn guage cluster work without the bcu .the harness it connects to comes out of the bcu .also does the drive by wire incorporate the throttle position sensor ? if it does then it probably goes through the bcu as well . my swap was very easy to do because i got all the factory stuff out of the donor car . if you are worried about not wasting billable time ,spend the money and get the rest of the donor car's parts that you will need .since you are starting with a four banger ,you need a new fuel pump too .you might as well use the one that was meant for it .when you have all the factory parts , it all becomes plug and play .
Yea, that's the only way I would attempt it. Use the stock computer, Dash, fuel pump, engine+tranny, Cat, and everything. Side effect: It should be C.A.R.B. legal in California. (assuming you start out with a CA car (made to CA spec) from the boneyard)
Nice work. This thread has intrigued me. I think a Fiero would make a very good home to the SC Ecotec. Curious why you didn't save yourself alot of hassle and just go with a stand alone EMS?
------------------ 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Nurburgring WARRIOR!!!! I survived the "Green Hell".
I will be using the MSD ecu when it becomes available next month (cross fingers & hope everybody stays on schedule) Once you add it all up it becomes the easer choice. If I had the entire donor car it would have been easer to use the cobolt stuff.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
i was looking at the msd unit too and it looks very promising ,especially since it is ecotec specific and they will also make harnesses .also tuneable just like an hp tuner setup .
There are some trade offs. With the MSD unit it will be techically not be emissions compliant, although it may pass the treadmill test using the 1988 standards for the car.
The MSD unit is a bank to bank batchfire fire, speed density type ecu. So I'll loose a tiny bit of low speed drive manors and a little MPG and it may be a little persnickety untill it warms up. Here is a link that shows some more information on the ecu. http://www.umiracing.com/ga...y/Images/Catalog.pdf
The goal of the car is to be a street legal track car that I can beat the snot out of with out the worries of breaking drive line parts. So I can certainly live with all that.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
The alternator are a little smarter then they used to be. The LSJ uses a higher ouput version then the L61 but uses the same control signals. The small 2-wire plug that goes into the alternator turns it on.
On the L61, Pin 1, OG color, is Generator Turn On Signal, needs 5 Volts to make it generate voltage. The ECU controls voltage with a PWM 15-87% duty cycle. Pin2, GY/WH color, is Generator Field Duty Cycle Signal, is a PWM output to tell the ECU how much load is on and to adjust idle speed compensate for high electrical loads.
Tying pin 1 to +5volts will turn it on, I do not know if the internal regulator will take over and maintian the battery.
I just tried this using the TPS 5v reference wire, it did not work and it really pissed MS off, until I unplugged it megasquirt refused to turn on. Anyone know a good way to reduce 12~14.4volts to 5 volts?
I just tried this using the TPS 5v reference wire, it did not work and it really pissed MS off, until I unplugged it megasquirt refused to turn on. Anyone know a good way to reduce 12~14.4volts to 5 volts?
Voltage regulator. You need to know how much power you need to drive it, though.
The ecotec has many cool things going for it like all the accessories bolt to the block for a nice tight package. But the a/c pump is mounted very low and runs into the exhuast hump on the front cross member.
Roger Thelin (352) 375-8259 makes a kit to bolt in the 2.2L ecotec with the F23 5-speed be replacing the old cross member with one of his design.
Is Roger Thelin the older gentleman from Gainesville that had the silver Ecotec notchie at the Daytona '07 show?
[/QUOTE]
Ooo. Finally a build that I've been drooling over forever. Can't wait to see the updated pics. This is a thread to follow. 
Can't wait to see the results of this one.
