Originally posted by ccfiero350: The SLA rear has been done in a fiero. There's even a kit. Ask Dave http://team321.com The tri-link setup is like the "before" set up. You can dial in static camber but it hurts you in strait line acceleration.
Thanks. There is a lot of things I like about it. I'm not sure if it's still for sale though. Seems that Dave has sold the Fiero business to HT Motorsports. - I could be wrong though. Is there footage of anyone having bought the kit/installed it? I'm not sure what to use as a search term to find it.
I like how it would allow for a longitudinal engine configuration. - which could work well for a boxer motor type setup (Subie, or Porsche) I'm not that happy what it would extend the Fiero wheelbase. - I wonder if a similar setup could be made using a transverse engine configuration. (maybe with existing cradle attachment points)
ccfiero350 thanks for explaining which setup the Fiero suspension corresponds to.
[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-15-2011).]
Originally posted by coppertop_01: aussie, might have you covered with the 88 cradle, guess you haven't seen my build? CC dropped me some plans for a 88 cradle and from there I was able to autocad, laser, form and weld a new 88 style cradle custom built to take a LSJ and F35 transmission.
The previous guy was right about the LNF's, they are a great motor, but there is some large problems with using it as a bolt in motor, the LSJ is much easier with a greater array of aftermarket support and removing the blower and putting on a turbo is fairly easy.
CC.......that boxter rear end gives me idea's, although I ain't doing that to my car, maybe the next one. Jer
Cool. Please elaborate. I think it would be fun to make an '88 style tube sub-frame. Especially if the blueprints can be modified to solve some of the problems that even the '88 frame/suspension had. I like the idea of a Boxster subframe as well. (adapted to the above CAD cradle) The Porsche suspension subframe is, as a complete assembly, fairly affordable. I just don't know if the geometry would match a Fiero front end. As I was pondering in Anyone know I a Boxer Engine will fit? , I think it would be cool to take a whole Porsche Boxster rear end (incl) motor and make a custom cradle that uses Fiero attachment points (cradle, and subframe) It just depends on how cheap a running Boxster could be found where the rear end is intact, and the front-end damage is excessive enough to total out the donor Porsche.
What I like about the LNF motor is the great gas mileage and low end torque. Direct injection makes smaller engines feel as if they had more cylinders. I agree, it's relatively new technology and there isn't much tuning potential out there. I'd basically be stuck with a stock LNF drivetrain (engine/transmission from a Cobalt SS, or HHR-SS, or F-35 + Ecotec from a Solstice). For California emissions it would be great, because I'm not allowed to modify the drvetrain anyways. Just sad, that if I'd like to modify the engine for more power, I'd have to stick with GM's "Stage 2/3/etc." kits.
It would be great to have blueprints for an '88 style (or other) cradle that could then customized for various projects. (like a SLA derivative) I guess it's time for me to learn Solidworks.
[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-15-2011).]
Using some drawings that CCfiero sent my way and a 88 cradle that I borrowed from a local member I was able to design (CCfiero did the 3D renderings and found a couple problems that I had) a sheet metal 88 cradle made from 1/8" mild steel, each rail piece had 2 pieces that were formed and welded together, I had also integrated factory motor mount locations for the LSJ/F35 transmission. Everything is posted on my blog, you will have to go a couple months back to see the progress though http://coppertopautosports.blogspot.com/, unfortunately it will be a couple years before I actually get to road testing my design..........
I hope it won't be that long. It would be cool to see that design come to life.
Is your idea to do an exact copy of the '88 cradle at first, and then modify it for more modern suspension geometry? What year Fiero did you design this for? If you're doing this for a 'pre '88 Fiero, it would be nice for this cradle to accept the 'pre '88 coolant lines, which would have to be modified when using an '88 cradle in a pre '88 car.
Coppertop_01's cradle uses 88 geometry in 84-87 cars. We did not make any special provisions for stock cooling, the ecotec coolant lines do have some differences, ones in front of the motor, the other behind it on the other end.
It'll probably change over time.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
CC is right, in my current version I haven't changed too much over the 88, but this will change in time......in my case it was just to build one so we had something to start with.
CC is right, in my current version I haven't changed too much over the 88, but this will change in time......in my case it was just to build one so we had something to start with.
Jer
I've been looking at your blog and I have to say I'm in awe of your fabrication talent and your combined design talents.
I hope you'll keep tinkering with the design of the cradle. Looking at your pictures I kept visualizing an upper control arm mounted ~10" above the lower suspension links for a true SLA type setup. Either built up from the custom cradle (like the Agent 47 setup) and tying into the Fiero subframe for stability, or even mounted to the Fiero subframe.
Do you just have the cradle as a design file, or do you also have the Fiero subframe as a CAD file as well? Would it be really hard to design the above as a CAD file and do a similar suspension animation as CCFieros suspension geometry video?
Well, it's late my mind is already half way in dreaming about suspensions, may as well go to bed and actually get some shut eye.
The designs I have right now are in CAD, but I don't have a completely put together version yet.........more of a mix and match of different angles and flats used in the laser process, unfortunately it would probably take somebody a little while to make sense of the drawings, one day I will get down to cleaning them up and either learning solid edge or pass them onto CCfiero to do the 3D renderings.
Back when I started my project I was thinking of doing a SLA rear setup, heck I even went to the wreckers a few times to look at other RWD SLA setup cars, but always left unimpressed (except for the 240's). In hindsight if I were to start the project over I would probably look at doing a SLA rear setup........but then also in hindsight I would have started this car as a tube chassis instead of fixing up a rotting chassis, its amazing how much a project will grow past the original idea.
Do you just have the cradle as a design file, or do you also have the Fiero subframe as a CAD file as well? Would it be really hard to design the above as a CAD file and do a similar suspension animation as CCFieros suspension geometry video?
These days, the design file, cad files, are one in the same, the core data is used through out the process. I just use different modules in ProE to do different things. Sometimes the geometry data is exported to a another software packages because either it's does it better then ProE or I don't have the module that will let me do the task. The design work is not all that hard for me, but it is time consuming, and paying gigs have top priority on my work station.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Originally posted by coppertop_01: Back when I started my project I was thinking of doing a SLA rear setup, heck I even went to the wreckers a few times to look at other RWD SLA setup cars, but always left unimpressed (except for the 240's). In hindsight if I were to start the project over I would probably look at doing a SLA rear setup........but then also in hindsight I would have started this car as a tube chassis instead of fixing up a rotting chassis, its amazing how much a project will grow past the original idea.
It's interesting, how many times I hear, that rather than doing a SLA type setup on a Fiero, or better the suspension, to rather just start over with a tube frame. Often I hear that the "wet noodle" chassis of the Fiero would be the weak point of a great suspension setup. It seems the same for kit cars these days. - Most suggest just starting with a blank tube frame.
structurally , the fiero frame was one of the strongest of its era .and even today when people want to create a full out racing chassis , they usually dont have a full space frame style chassis like a fiero's to start with .i read an article about making an scca class racer out of a nissan 350Z and how they tore the whole car apart and stitch welded the entire unibody chassis .when i say stitch welded , that is not actually an accurate term as all the welds were continuous with no gaps at all .the cost was huge , but it doubled the torsional rigidity of the chassis .look at our space frame . it is only spot welded together and it is yet very strong .stitch welding a fiero frame would gain a lot of strength and not cost much if you did it yourself .
That may be a project someday. It reminds me of the saying with Porsche 914 owners. "First you have to take the body off and finish welding it, as they never finished welding it at the factory."
I believe the Atoms Ecotec had different cams. Another thing is that GM rated their supercharged ecotecs HP at the wheels to help lower insurance costs to buyers. I am assuming the Atoms is Crank HP. So a stock cobaltSS/Ionredline rated at 205 HP is just at the wheels. Crank would be closer to 230~. A stage 2 close to 270~. So for an Atom, smaller pully, different cams, better charge cooling and a tune to match would probably bring it into the 300HP range. Look on www.cobaltss.net They have some crazy mods to get some high #s out of their cars!
The internals of the Atom are the same as all the other LSJ's the "stage 3" setup consists of the injectors from the stage 2 upgrade and the following: The Stage 3 kit consists of the following:
" • Smaller, 76mm supercharger pulley • 2-pass intercooler end plate • Unique PCM which includes a calibration for the smaller pulley, an adjustable rev limiter, a 100 octane mode, and a nitrous algorithm.
Our Stage 3 kit will take your supercharged Ecotec to a whole new level of performance. Stage 3 takes horsepower output to 248 on 93 octane fuel and to 260 horsepower on 100 octane fuel. In addition to the power increase, you'll also get an adjustable rev limiter and calibration for a 50 shot of nitrous (nitrous kit not included). For best power, we recommend also installing a high-flow exhaust.
The PCM is equipped with a user adjustable rev limit from 6750 to 8000 rpm. The rev limit is adjusted by pressing on the throttle pedal with the ignition on and engine off. At about 50% throttle the tachometer will show the current rev limit. Pressing the throttle further will adjust the rev limit in 250 rpm increments. This PCM is also equipped with a control scheme for the equivalent of a 50-horse shot of Nitrous. The PCM will automatically provide the proper spark and fuel for A Nitrous up to 500 rpm below the current selected rev limit when the trigger is activated."
I imagine that the extra power (260 up to 300) in the Atom comes from the better exhaust sytem. I can verify that the Atom does utalize the drive-by-wire throttle body. Which means to use the Atom PCM in a Fiero one would need to use a Cobalt gas pedal. The Atom also uses a race type gauge cluster from SPA. The cluster is progamable for different inputs. As far as I have researched, all that would be needed to run the LSJ off the Atom PCM is the Cobalt pedal and the SPA gauge cluster. You might be able to get the Fiero guages to work too, but I'm not sure on that.
The Atom PCM is not technically a stand alone setup. It does not come with software to tune it. I think more or less it is the same as the Cobalt SS/Redline, flashed to a stage 3 tune, minus the need for the BCM. However, I know of at least one place http://trifectaperformance....pportedvehicles.aspx that can tune the Atom PCM. You can purchase the Atom PCM on the net for around $500. If you can do a bit of wiring, that's all it would cost to get the LSJ running in the Fiero. If not there's always enginewiring.com, they will build you a harness for around $325
My LSJ is stock at the moment, and will run off a mefi4 controller. Once the car is running, I have all the parts for a stage 3 upgrade along with new clutch and alum flywheel and balancer delete.
I'd like to see a good solid reliable 260-280 hp with a stage 2 pulley for track days.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Cc, do you have the me controller? I haven't heard anything from painless performance on it. I can't find anyone running one either. I'm curious how the base tune is on it, the Atom guys often complain about the tune from Brammo. The issues seem to be performance under hi temps. Mostly caused by an undersized heat exchanger in the Atom. When the temps go up, the tune starts to kill the power.
I have an ECU from Brammo via Gale Banks around here some where that I need to sell. I've heard a lot about the heat soak problems and worked on getting a butt more cooling capacity in my car.
Which version of the Brammo tune do you have? I think they had a stage 2 and 3. PM me about the ECU, I would be interested if the price is right. From what I have gathered, the heat soak problem can be solved by adding a larger heat exchanger (down low in front of Fiero cradle might be a good spot), adding a surge tank (available from GM called "option B") and upgrading the intercooler to a dual pass endplate. I have also read that it is a good idea to upgrade the valve springs on the LSJ in stage 3 trim, the stock ones are only good to around 6800-7000 rpm.
Brand new, still have the original box. Stage 3, if your in the business you know how nice it is to have one to exchange with, and one to hack. Make me a reasonable offer.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I didn't really get anything done this weekend.......Friday had to stay late at work to finish month end, it was UFC 129 this weekend so Saturday was finished and didn't get home till almost 3 on sunday morning and then on Sunday at 8am I had to hit the wreckers for a "all you can haul day" basically pay $50 and you can take whatever you can walk out with. I did get a few parts for the project car, I got a master cylinder from a 90's Firebird with a 3.4L in it (and ABS), it will work great with a ABS unit from a ION/cobalt because it only has the 2 output, but it will bolt to the brake booster from a Fiero, so I think it will be a perfect fit between the old school brakes of the Fiero and the more modern brakes from the ABS units of the cobalt/ion's. I also grabbed some 4 piston brakes from a mid 90's Mercedes, they are smaller than the Brembo's that I have for the front, so they should balance well with the bigger units from the front......although I still have to grab some mechanical brakes from willwood for my E-brake, best part is that with a balancing valve and the ABS I should be able to get the brakes working well.
Give me a day or two (got 4000'ish photo's to go through from the UFC) and I will update the blog and my thread on the board here.
Sounds cool. Can't wait to see pics and the loot you brought.
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01: Sunday at 8am I had to hit the wreckers for a "all you can haul day" basically pay $50 and you can take whatever you can walk out with.
Is there a limit to this? Does that mean you could rip out an engine/drivetrain, etc. for that much? In that case I could do a Subie swap, or my own Ecotec swap, or anything really. It would leave a lot of money over for the fabrication budget. Wish we had those here.
There isn't really a limit except what you can carry, keep in mind you can't drag it out, there is two lines on the ground about 30 feet apart and the parts must be off the ground strapped to your body/in your arms/on your head for that 30 feet.......also you have to take out the tools that you use at the same time, its a careful balance, bring what tools you need to keep weight in to a min to maximize the amount you can bring out. As well having an idea of what exactly you are looking for and what tools you need to bring those parts out is a must, after doing these hauls for over 7 years I've become a bit used to planning it all out, and yes I have taken engines and transmissions (separately) out for $50 before. Also if you have another person (wife, g/f, friend, street hobo etc) that can take your tools they will get a credit because they weren't carrying anything which is good for another trip later in the year.......
It's been awhile since the last post. Work has picked up and was not able to spend too much time on the knuckles. So here is were we left it.
The horizontal links are tied into the knuckle by a 1" bar thats goes through the knuckle and is threaded at both ends for 1/2-20 bolt. Here it is prior to being welded in.
One of the through bolt holes had to have the welds clearances for the bolt head.
I bolted the knuckle to a flat surface and welded on the brake bracket.
The bracket completes the box that holds the bearing. Later I found a better method to ensure good caliper alignment. I will assemble the whole unit and use the brake assembly as a fixture to tack the bracket on first.
I had a pair of corvette rotor around that had been drilled for 100x5, so I slotted the oem holes to fit the 4 1/2" Ford pattern since the rotor is still hub centric. Look Ma, no adapter rings!
I did have to drill out the strut mount holes to get the right fit and to smooth out the lamination offsets in the bolt hole.
Here is the number one reason I've gone through all the trouble and making new knuckles.
Cheap fat rims for cheap wide tires! 285/40x17! I can also fit a 315/34-17!
Here is an important shot. On top, stock 2006 cobalt SS axle, Bottom, replacement axle for a 06 Chevy Equinox. The inboard spline fits the F35 and F40 tranny. The cobalt SS outboard spline fits the stock fiero hub, also is the correct length for a cool ecotec swap.. The Equinox has the same bolt pattern and hub diameter of the late model mustang and the hub diameter is the same as the c4 vette and is just a tad longer then the cobalt SS axle.
No custom axles.
It is bigger then the fiero version and it's 100% STAINLESS STEEL
Bolted it in with the stock fiero length horizontal end links. These are not the right length for this knuckle, they need to be about an inch longer, and the oem trailing has too much diagonal offset to bolt on.
With the too short links the strut is too close to the frame rail to fit the sway bar fittings, But you can see how much space is at the top of the tire for more camber.
Its at about the right ride hight now, with out the trailing arm in place the wheel needs a little centering in the wheel well.
The new horizontal links will both be adjustable so I can move the wheel to flush with the fender lip.
The 285/40-17 tire gives me a nearly flat side wall, I'm going to try a 315/35-17 on the other rim to see how it looks.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I finished up welding my driver side knuckle with a better procedure then the passenger side. I was a little impatient the last time and it needed a little tweaking afterward.
This time I bolted the caliper bracket to the caliper and clamped it in place.
There is a machined surface on the inside of the OEM bracket that I was able to register off of with a steel ruler that was the right thickness. This set the bracket in the right plane and I tacked welded to the rest of the knuckle before fully welding it.
This ended up being much more accurate then the 1st method I used. With the bearing bolted in place, I had to stop and let it cool down between welds or I would melt the grease out.
With the caliper in place, it did look like it was a little more out board then I thought it was going to be.
But you can see the outside brake pad edge is about a 1/16" inside the outer diameter of the rotor. So it will maximize the mechanical aspects of the 12" rotor.
With these calipers, I have a choice of running the cable over the top of the axle or under it.
They fit pretty nice in a 17" wheel. There is a Wilwood 2 piece rotor that's a direct bolt on.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I have the new trailing links but yet to install them.
I've started a new company and most of my time and resources have been applied to it over the last few months. My shop is full of hydraulics and motion controllers at the moment.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I am loving the axle info on this thread. I'm trying to see if this is a true bolt on plug and play. Let me see if I get it right. So i'm doing a F40 trans on a 3800sc. I hear that the (05-07) Cobalt SS axles are the ones to use. One side bolts to the tranny, and the other bolts to the fiero hub. I need two right side axles and an intermediate shaft for the right side. All from the Cobalt SS. The only thing I need to do is fab up a bracket to bolt to the v6. Did I follow this correctly? If not, please break it down to me like I new nothing about cars and it was my first time. This will save me so much money if this is the route to take for F40 axles. Thanks.
I think so, but I'm not sure if the f40 and f35 have the same exact differential offset, The 05-07 Cobalt SS axles are the same length on both sides, and will plug into the f40 and the fiero hubs.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I can agree with CC on this one, a customer/friend of mine was looking to install a F40 trans on his cobalt and there was some major issues getting it to fit correctly, in the end he stuck with a stock LSD tranny from a cobalt SS/SC.
Also I don't know how you are going to be mounting the jack shaft setup from a ecotec motor on a 3800 series to use cobalt axles, since the jack shaft bolts to the ecotec and will not have the same locations on a 3800. Not something to completely stop a build, but enough to question the fees-ability of it. I would almost look at a hybrid/custom axle setup with a set of stock cobalt axles and get them shortened or lengthened to remove the use of the jack shaft.
So I start reading this thread and getting all excited 'cuz someone already did my build - and depressed, 'cuz there's no WAY I'm gonna do all that fabrication.
And then I see an old friend, Coppertop, doing the same thing, starting from the same place. And designing a custom cradle, no less.
'sup, Coppertop?! Sally's drivetrain is looking for a mid-mounted new home.
How's all this coming? And is that new cradle order-able yet?
BigBrother.........sorry I don't recognize your handle, unfortunately I have a bad memory for names, but I remember peoples cars.....lol
As for the cradle, my project is running about a year behind my initial schedule, although the project has taken a life of its own and isn't what my original plans were. I'm hoping this winter to have all the major mechanical done enough that I can disassemble the car and complete the welding and maybe start the finishing and assembly next year, until I test the cradle in my running car I don't feel like being responsible for a untested product.
Jer
------------------ 2000 Saturn wagon, the tool box, cargo hauler and beater.....mods coming. 86 GT ex-daily driver w/3800SC, sold to a friend who is going to be racing it. 85 GT project car "Fierion"
I have the same handle on RLF and CSS. Pacific Blue 2005 competition package. Big wreck in March totaled her. I'm sure I know you from the other boards better than you know me, given you're right up there with John (Qwik) in the "done a ton for the community" category, lol.
I am in the process of learning AutoCAD and Inventor; workers comp sent me to school when the 1st wreck (on the clock) left me unable to work for my old employer anymore. Unfortunately they're only paying for the "101" type courses for each, so I have a lot to learn still - BUT - they DID get me a top of the line HP mobile workstation and the ENTIRE AutoDesk suite complete with a 3 year professional subscription. So if I can help, let me know..!
Thats why I don't recognize the handle, I personally banned RLF years ago due to their views on vendors and their pricing to be a vendor.........and CSS used to have a lot of good info, now I find it a bit of a flame battle forum. I wouldn't put me up with John, he's done a butt load more than I have in the delta chassis world.......but it does help being 45 mins from his shop
Sorry to hear about your crash, but good luck with the schooling, I find it nice to sit down and design new stuff, don't get too overwhelmed with it, I am completely self taught and still learn new things with it all the time.
Jer
------------------ 2000 Saturn wagon, the tool box, cargo hauler and beater.....mods coming. 86 GT ex-daily driver w/3800SC, sold to a friend who is going to be racing it. 85 GT project car "Fierion"
It would be cool to see that design come to life. 
Make me a reasonable offer.
