It does fit under the deck lid, but the trunk wall interferes, look on page three, my engine is set so the pan bottom is flat, which rotates the block forward, if yours if different, there will be even less space for the tsudo headers at the top bend. If you want to save your trunk wall at all, and use the tsudo headers, you need to rotate the block a little more forward so the top part of the headers clear the trunk wall and leave about 1/4" min. of clearance. (this will still burn regular paint after a while).
An alternative to redoing your mounts, cut out the portion that the headers touch the trunk wall and make a sheet metal pan to replace it so the headers have room. Heads up, the engine will rotate back under acceleration so give it room to move. I don't know how complaint your engine mounts are, but you can find out by putting some clay to deform under acceleration some were up top and your can measure it afterward.
PM sent.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I have the tsudo on mine, But I need to upgrade the portion past the 4, basically the 2-1 part needs to be redesigned, Currently it dumps into a "T" that goes to bothe ends of the car with 2 2.25 glasspacks, I dont think its a bad system but it could use some major improvements!
Fosgatecavy98, could you post some pics, or a link to where they are?
I have a hard time picturing how you mounted the engine. Also congrats on still keeping the trunk intact. How close is the top part of the headers to the trunk wall?
ccfiero350, have you made any progress on the engine? Did you fire it up yet? I'm dying to hear what it sounds like. Also, what rotation is the engine stock? How much flexibility is one allowed in engine tilt, before it makes any problems with oiling, etc.?
I'm still doing bodywork at the moment. I have a bunch of upgrades for the motor to put in.
I looked back into Fosgatecavy98 posts on his ecotec swap and the motor looks to be more straight up and down then mine. I think it's also mated to a isuzu tranny with a Bates adapter, which may also put it a different position within the engine bay then my F35.
The oil pickup is part of the pan, and is on the exhaust side. As long as it stays covered up with oil you can tilt the motor any were you like. The dip stick will read true only when it's at the oem tilt angle, so you may need to re-mark it after you have the right amount of oil in it.
IMHO try for the OEM tilt if you can, but don't worry about it can't be. At hi rpm, most of the oil is up in the engine, and as a dense fog in the crank case, there still over an inch of oil at the bottom of the pan to feed the pump.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
What do you want pictures of mine? Its not an ideal setup at all lol and was done because the local police didnt like the flames igniting the oil at intersections, nor the noise
Yes mine has zero tilt on it, I am going to redo the mounts this winter, I have the 2.4L manifold on it and it has a bad clearance issue with the TB and firewall, the Le5 manifold sits higher than the 2.2 and caused that issue.
The oiling isnt really an issue, at anything higher than 3k or so the ecotec makes over 100psi of oil pressure (peaks around 125psi) its a very tight motor
Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.
The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.
I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.
Has anyone doing an LSJ Supercharged Ecotec swap actually utilized the Ariel Atom Stage III ECM #12610648 mentioned above?? What mods are required to get the Ecotec from the stock 205HP up to the Ariel Atom 300HP specs, I know about the new injectors (Stage I) and pulley/hub upgrade (Stage II) but that only brings the engine up to 245HP. Would HP cams, free-flowing exhaust and a ported head be next on the parts list?
Seems as though the Ecotec GMPP died with "old GM"; what else is needed to make this ECM work before GMPP parts become extinct? What about the harness, just the OE engine harness or does it require a custom harness? What about the drive-by-wire throttle body?
Lots of questions but GM isn't available for comment!
I believe the Atoms Ecotec had different cams. Another thing is that GM rated their supercharged ecotecs HP at the wheels to help lower insurance costs to buyers. I am assuming the Atoms is Crank HP. So a stock cobaltSS/Ionredline rated at 205 HP is just at the wheels. Crank would be closer to 230~. A stage 2 close to 270~. So for an Atom, smaller pully, different cams, better charge cooling and a tune to match would probably bring it into the 300HP range. Look on www.cobaltss.net They have some crazy mods to get some high #s out of their cars!
I have not done anything with the Ariel ECU, but would like to proceed with it further. I don't think they messed with the internals of the motor on the Atom, but I know the exhaust was a huge limiting factor on the Cobalt SS at the time. I can't confirm, have not seen one up close long enough to find out, but I think they made a new header for it.
As to my on going troubles with Norm's fiberglass, I'll call him again tomorrow.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Fosgatecavy98, could you post some pics, or a link to where they are?
I have a hard time picturing how you mounted the engine. Also congrats on still keeping the trunk intact. How close is the top part of the headers to the trunk wall?
ccfiero350, have you made any progress on the engine? Did you fire it up yet? I'm dying to hear what it sounds like. Also, what rotation is the engine stock? How much flexibility is one allowed in engine tilt, before it makes any problems with oiling, etc.?
Before I had my exhaust finished up.
I did not get the fiero tips/bends on it and have a bigger sweeping bends, its not right still, which is why I want his exhaust
I have not done anything mechanical on the car in the last few months other then getting the rear clip in shape and doing fiberglass work on the duct works. I'll post those pictures on the other thread soon.
Talked to Norm recently, he should be crating up the front clip and getting it ready to ship. Will update as it progresses.
I'm doing another Drivers Ed, at TWS this weekend, it looks like it's going to cold, high of 50 degrees on Sat. Looking forword to some track time though.
I like doing exhaust work, it's a lot like jig saw sculpture. I don't think I'll do a stainless system again soon, it cost about 4 times as much as mild steel.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I got some parts in and started back on the 88 front suspension mods. One of the things I wanted to achieve was more camber gain, bigger brakes, less unsprung weight, and ease of adjusting alignments for track conditions.
I bought a set of Held's tubular lower A-arms for coil overs a couple of years ago and is fundamentally based of off these. The uppers are available from Held but I was looking for more flexibility. The center to center bolt spacings for the 88 upper A-arm shaft is 4 1/2". Same as the 71-73 Pinto. Mustang II comes in at 5". Which is pretty common among roundy round circles. I can find some cool adjustable upper A-arms cheap in stock car parts bins starting at 5" CTC
So first off I wanted to cut off as much unused metal from the coil pocket of the 88 front cross member. Then I need to widen the hole pattern to 5".
I made some filler pieces to go in the slots.
Then I MIG welded them place. I wanted to TIG them but I was out of Argon. MIG does a great job but is not as precise as I can do with TIG.
Then I ground the weld down flat and drilled 1/2" holes for the new 5" cross member. I this point caster is just a guess, so the holes are not slotted, but they are in the center of the perch. I will not find out until it's all together how much I'll need to slot the holes.
These particular cross shafts have bronze bushings, very little lash, and no compliance. The lower A-arm bushings at this point are poly, I'm looking to see If I can find a less compliant solution for those without cutting off the end and welding on something new..
The Upper Ball Joint is for a 68-89 Chrysler that weighs nearly almost twice as much as the fiero. So it just about twice as big.
The aluminum knuckle that I'm using is metric and has a different taper as the Chrysler ball joint, so I'm reaming the top ball joint hole to the correct taper and size for the new unit.
The new knuckle in place shows I need the 10 deg. upper ball joint plate. At the normal ride height, I don't have enough travel in the upper joint before it binds when I bottom the suspension.
I can adjust the fore and aft position of the top joint by adjusting the sleeves, but since this does not adjust the plain of the arc, as the suspension travels, how does this effect camber? I need to read up on anti-dive geometry.
I laid the shock in (at max extension) with the lower arm at approximate ride height.
The shock mount has just one hole at the moment, there will be three at 1" intervals for ride height and spring rate changes.
The lower ball joint needs to be replaced to match the taper and size of the metric knuckle. I need to make a new sleeve to match the the press fit lower ball joint.
I need get the correct lower ball joint in place before I get the tie rods and sway bar fitted.
Thanks for everybody's comments.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
The upper ball joint plate was replaced with a 10 degree unit to give plenty of room for travel.
Unfortunately the upper a-arms that use this ball joint are symmetric, ours are offset so I had to go to a gm metric ball joint plate that has a left and right hand version. They also have a 20 degree tilt to them. They are the 4 bolt kind, I'll post an image next time around. On the plus side I do not have to re-taper the upper ball joint hole in the knuckle.
The new brakes are a little bit bigger in diameter.
But thicker, meaning more thermal mass to heat up.
They have a pretty thin hat profile, and the bolt pattern changes to 5 x 110mm. There is plenty of room on the hub to re-drill the bolt pattern to 5 x 115mm.
The shock mounts brackets are J shaped to hook under the cross member.
I used the old ball joint as a guide to cut out a hole with the plasma cutter for the new bigger lower ball joint mount ring.
When I got these arms a few years ago I was dismayed how thin the mount rings were. If the ball joint did not have a retaining clip to hold it in place, I could not see how it could last. The new rings are about a little over a 1/4" thick across the section. The new lower ball joint is on the right.
The new rings are tacked in.
Then TIG welded around the bottom side. The top side is MIG welded for good fill. I think I may fill up this cup area later with epoxy to keep water from accumulating.
The reworked lower a-arms after paint and bushings. I want to thank Eric at HT Motorsports for the lower Nylon bushings, they are 84-87 units for rally cars,I trimmed them to fit the Held tube arms. I was looking for a stiffer bushing to match the uppers.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I'm still working on the front end on and off. I relocated the bottom of the shock on the arm since I last posted. Also I have changed the the bolt pattern from the Solstice 5x110 to a Saturn Vue 5x114 hub. I'm just about ready to do the brake adapter for a Wilwood caliper.
I just got a new (to me) manual mill to play with and have been getting it ready to use.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
If you want to up the HP on the LSJ i have a 2006 cobalt SS/SC and i did 60lbs inj 2.85 pulley header DP exhaust and a HP tuners tune and my car should be seeing around 260 WHP which is about 300 crank.. i can pull pretty much any thing on the road with that set up just make sure you have a good H/E for the inter cooling system.
I have a bunch of go fast goodies to put on the motor when I pull it again. Full Stage 3 upgrade, light weight flywheel, LS throttle body, remote oil filter and internal balancer delete kit.
As soon as I get the front end put back together, I'll finish the rear half of the car.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Also I have changed the the bolt pattern from the Solstice 5x110 to a Saturn Vue 5x114 hub. I'm just about ready to do the brake adapter for a Wilwood caliper.
Could you clarify please? Did you modify the Solstice hub or will the triangular flange of the Saturn Vue 5x114 hub bolt to the Solstice knuckle? I'm trying to find a 33 spline hub that fits the Cobalt SS axles with the correct triangular flange to bolt to the Solstice knuckle. (And I think the Vue has a 33 spline hub, no?) Or can these GM hub parts be mixed and matched to achieve this? Thanks for all the great info so far.
The vue hubs need just a wee bit bigger pilot hole in the solstice knuckles and the bolt circle is about 3 mm larger so you need to slot the holes just a little. The out board spline is much bigger on the vue hubs but the vue axles use the same inboard spline as the SS axles and plug right into the F35 tranny and are about 1/2" longer then the SS axles.
The vue hubs are gen II version but on inspection the bearing retainers do not appear to be integral to the inner spline piece and I think I will put a big bolt through it to keep it all together for safety sakes.
The vue hubs and brakes discs on the solstice knuckle does create some interference issues that need to be worked out.
I'll will be working these out pretty soon.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I thought this sounded like a good solution so I looked into it more and have a few more questions.
1) As far as I can tell the Vue hubs are actually 115mm and not the more common 114.3mm. Not that it necessarily matters but its enough of a difference for wheel selection. This is based on online references as I don't have one to measure, correct me if you've confirmed otherwise.
2) I'm also confused about the axle spline count and OD of the various axles. According to the first page of this thread, the Cobalt SS axles are 27 spline @ 1.15" OD transmission side, and at the hub side they are 33 spline @ ???? OD. What is the hub spline OD on the cobalt axle and/or Fiero axle since they are the same?
But from the EMPI website the Vue axles are either 34 or 29 spline at the transmission depending on which Vue model and not the required 27. Do you have the Vue axle part number and/or year and trim level of Vue that fits the F35? What is the Vue hub spline OD? (Here is where I am getting my axle info as it could be incorrect, unfortunately is doesn't show spline diameters. http://www.showmetheparts.com/empi/# )
3) Last thing. For my application I would just prefer to use the original Solstice hub which I believe is 30 spline, and I think 1.391" OD. (anybody know for certain?) Does anyone know of an axle that will go from the F35 to the Solstice hub? I don't care about axle length as I will adjust the suspension to accommodate it. Or, does anyone know of another hub that will bolt directly to the Solstice knuckle without modification?
Hope I'm not hijacking here, I think this info should help everyone.
[This message has been edited by paradigm (edited 08-25-2010).]
Good questions, hopefully I can answer off the top of head without trying to find stuff and pull it out of the shop.
1. Yea, I had that problem too. Some places it's listed as 115 others is 114.5, I think it's a whole number issue an it's actually 114.5mm. That's only .010 of an inch off the bolt circle and it's within the hole clearance so I'm not worried about it.
2. The cobalt SS axles have the same spine as the outside fiero units and can be used right off the shelf. The Vue V6 front drive auto has the same inboard splines as the SS cobalt axles. But the outboard splines are much bigger. To use the Vue hubs and axles on the rear with the F35 tranny on a 88 you need custom knuckles made to fit the bigger Vue bearing hub. I've been working on this on and off for a year. On 84-87s it's a lot easier, you just need to make an adapter for the Vue knucke to mate with fiero struts or make Vue struts fit fiero chassis and get the toe links to fit.
3. The solstice hub bearing is the same front and back, it's a gen III and does not need an axle to keep it together. I am thinking the solstice inside spline is the same as the SS and Vue, but the outside is a little larger then fiero's, smaller then Vue's. This is the part were it's been awhile and don not remember the details unless I drag out the parts and look at them again.
I picked the Vue hub because it was a stout piece and got me into a bolt pattern that I can get cheap wide wheels.
What are you working on?
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I'm actually working on a custom mid engine tube frame project so I frequent the Fiero forums since much of the drivetrain and general "will this part fit" questions are the same. I have lurked for quite a while, so much of your posts and others like Joseph Upson's research have helped tremendously.
Because its custom and double wishbone all around, is why I am interested in using the Solstice knuckle in the rear (and probably the front too) and mating it to the F35 or possibly the F40. Its also why I'm not constrained on many aspects like axle length. I found the Vue axle that works now, its only on the '02-'03 Vue ( as well as the '05-'06 Equinox and '06 Torrent), EMPI part # is 80-7524, not sure if that's a OEM number as well or not.
I was also interested in the Vue hubs to have a better selection of wheels, but for simplicity for my application I would rather just find an axle that goes from the F35 to the Solstice hub off the shelf and just deal with the less than ideal bolt pattern. If the inboard Solstice splines are indeed the same as the Cobalt SS and Vue that would be killer but I can't find any info on them other than they are the same as the CTS and STS.
The front and rear solstice knuckle is all most identical except for the brake caliper mount pads. If you going through all the trouble of doing a tube frame it may do you more good to source more common, and still in production pieces like corvette parts to design around IMHO.
I started out going through bearing catalogs to get dimensional information. Unfortunately they don't state what generation they are. You have to contact them to get the particulars on a specific hub.
Being a double wishbone set up, you can be open to make your own knuckle for the rear. The front can be anything that uses the desired bolt pattern hub.
I'll look into the vue/solstice spline details tomorrow and see what I can come up with.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
The front and rear solstice knuckle is all most identical except for the brake caliper mount pads. If you going through all the trouble of doing a tube frame it may do you more good to source more common, and still in production pieces like corvette parts to design around IMHO.
I started out going through bearing catalogs to get dimensional information. Unfortunately they don't state what generation they are. You have to contact them to get the particulars on a specific hub.
Being a double wishbone set up, you can be open to make your own knuckle for the rear. The front can be anything that uses the desired bolt pattern hub.
I'll look into the vue/solstice spline details tomorrow and see what I can come up with.
I was under the impression the Solstice knuckles were exactly identical, which was part of the allure of using them. If I move on to some other knuckle/spindle there are certainly other good ones out there like the corvette and miata. I have considered making my uprights as well but undoubtedly there will be so many other things on a ground up tube frame project I was trying to keep it in check. Its also nice knowing you have replacement parts where ever you go.
In the past few days I have also discovered the Cobalt SS/TC uses a different axle than the SC version. Its a 30 spline at the hub and the G6 axle might be the right bridge from the F35 to the Solstice hub, still need to get more dimensions on it to know for sure. Any luck with the Vue/Solstice hub spline details?
One more somewhat related question, what is the offset between the F35 input shaft and the axles? Just a quick tape measure would be great. Curious for packaging and f/r weight distribution.
The solstice knuckles do use identical bearing hubs front and rear but the brake mount ears on the rear knuckle are smaller and closer together. If this is a track vehicle and you don't need a parking brake I would use the same front unit on both ends, then you only have to stock 1 pad size.
The front one on the right has a vue hub installed.
I have a '06 SS motor/trans and I have not looked past that version. I'll be in the shop tomorrow and see if I can dig up the axles and hubs and make some picts.
On the offset do you mean the centerline to centerline distance between the crank and axle?
As an option, look into the mustang II/pinto knuckle you can get lowered knuckles with big brake options with out making custom parts. I could have gone this route with new parts and spent less in the long run. What your going to find out pretty soon is the geometry of the front end is pretty hairy and the height of the steering pickup will drive you mad.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
On the offset do you mean the centerline to centerline distance between the crank and axle?
Yes exactly. If you were to stand the motor straight up, the horizontal offset between the crank and axle (as well as the vertical offset if there is any).
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
What your going to find out pretty soon is the geometry of the front end is pretty hairy and the height of the steering pickup will drive you mad.
Are you talking about the Solstice knuckle here? I had read somewhere that the steering arm being so close to the lower ball joint vertically did make it a pain. The more I think about it maybe a custom knuckle is the way to go, or possibly using the Cobalt McPherson knuckle with bolt on unit to locate the upper balljoint. Would make for a nice way to adjust outboard suspension points.
For some reason I'm just really trying to avoid custom axles.
My problem is mating two different cars suspension pieces that were not designed together. The Fiero rack is is about 1 1/2" higher then the solstice rack. To keep bump steer at bay the arc length of the lower control arm and the steering link should almost be the same and parallel depending on how much camber gain you want.
You doing a tube frame allows you to put the rack in the right place depending on what knuckles you use and be able to dial out the bump steer.
Struts are nice and cheap and light weight, work really well if you get the geometry right. But you can't adjust them like a double wish bone. If your going to look into that route, study up on Porsche front suspensions. They do it extremely well.
Using off the shelf or bone yard parts is traditional! We are hot rodders!
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
