I have owned my 87 GT since i was 14 years old and i decided that the 3800SC was a good place to start a build thread on my car. I bought my car 5 years ago as a bone stock 87 GT 5 spd. Below is a pic of what it looked like when i picked it up in Dayonta beach FL. Me and my dad decided that we would completely rebuild it from the ground up. On its way to the paint shop After the paint This is when it still had the stock 2.8 in it I
This is when i decided that it was time for a engine swap so one year ago i started looking on carparts.com and i found a 3800SC close to me that had 45,000 miles on it. So i went and picked it up. The engine came with everything but the PCM and wiring harness. It came out of a 99 buick regal. So i tore the motor down and had the short block completely rebuilt with ARP fasteners throught and clevite 77 bearings. I also had the shop port and polish the heads. They flowbenched the heads and they came out equivelent to the ZZP Stage 3 heads. Here are the pics as of tonight what we have got done on the motor. There is a list of mods also. Speed Pro Moly Rings Balance shaft removed Rollermaster double roller timing set XP cam (520" intake, 536" exhaust) Comp Cams pushrods Comp Cam modified retainers Comp Cam valve locks Pro magnum roller rockers Comp cam OE-R lifters ARP Head studs, main studs, rod bolts Clevite 77 bearings 4 layer Cometic gaskets ZZP Stage 3 heads 130lb springs Ported Intake balanced & blueprinted ZZP Stage 2 Fullsize Intercooler Ported intake 42lb Lucas injectors Custom fuel rail Autolite 103's MSD wires Triple Edge inlet and outlet ported M90 Northstar Throttlebody 3.0 - 2.55 Supercharger pulley 8 Rib Blower belt 85 mm Maff 4" CAI Pacesetter Headers 3" madrel bent exhaust, hooker aero-chamber muffler Custom PCM by Loyde at Fastfieros 5 Spd Getrag with Spec Stage 4 clutch
[This message has been edited by daniel87fierogt (edited 05-14-2008).]
Here are pics of the trunk while in progress of cutting the bottom out. We basically cut the back out and then folded the front section up into the trunk to make the flat floor all the way across now. More pics when i get it sealed up and re-carpeted.
I remember back when your dad was explaining how you'd go piece by piece through the engine bay making it look brand new. That was really awesome how you and your dad worked on it together back then and now with the new engine its going to be even better! Great thread.
Wow, the car looks fantastic in yellow with those wheels. Nice engine work as well. That thing is pretty frickin' sweet...for a v6 car that is...jk jk NICE WORK!!!
You say you are in California? What area? North or South? Are you still going to run the 5-speed? What process are you going to use to get it past the Smog Nazi's? Keep this thread going. I really enjoy the build-up...
ignorant prodigy-I am using the stock size valves and they are the stock GM valves. I was going to upgrade to manley severe duty valves but then i decided that i am waiting for the ZZPerformance Stage 4 alluminum heads to come out so i didnt go to larger valves.
CTFieroGT87- wow i am really surprised that you remember i was the one who wanted every thing to look brand new. My dad is still helping me put the motor together.
Kevin- This motor is using the 5spd getrag and i have deleted just about every emissions device. I am located in southern cali. Just about 100 miles south of bakersfield. So either a hot smog or since i am making the 3800SC a complete plug and play i could just swap the 2.8 back into it for smog day. It only takes me few hours to pull the motor and replace it. Thanks everybody for the great comments and the positive encouragement on the motor.
[This message has been edited by daniel87fierogt (edited 02-18-2008).]
I am going to be posting a bunch of pics on friday and saturday. We are going to be mating the engine and trans together and then mounting it on the cradle.
Did you have the block machined for the increased oiling efficiency? I hear there are issues with casting flashing in the front cover, and that the oil supply holes for the center mains are smaller than they should be.
What did you do to block of the oil supply after removing the balance shaft?
Build looks great!!
EDIT, can you please show install pics of how you plumb your intercooler?
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 02-20-2008).]
Jncomutt- Thats funny that you mention the oiling issue. When we had the front cover off we looked and we didnt see any casting flashing but the machine shop that assembled the shortblock told me that they did enlarge the main bearing oiling holes and they cleaned up some other oil gallery ports also. The removed the balance shaft myself before i took it down the the shop and then they drilled and tapped the oil hole. Yes i will be sure to take lots of pics of the intercooler install. I am using the same FMHE that Tampalinc is using on his Air to water setup. Its the upgraged FMHE for the 03-04 cobras. Its made by fluidyne and it has 3 cores with each core being 1 inch wide. We havent decided whether we are going to run the 3/4 copper IC lines down the middle of the car or if we are going to run them down the outside of the car. Most IC setups i have seen they have run the IC lines down the sides of the gas tank but we are thinking of running the lines down one rocker and the return coming up the other rocker. We will have to see what works out best when we get ready to do this.
nice build i just built one up a bit not as much...i am running a double roller timing.. chain i hope you bought a machined oil pump cover or youll have metal in your pan after the first minute of running..i can send you pics of mine that was install with a stock cover and it gouged it pretty bad.. but nice build car looks awesome in yellow
------------------ Parts for your FWD GM 97-07 Morad Parts Company Moradpartscompany
Daniel, thanks for the intercooler information. I too am going to be running an A/W intercooler and I need something thats going be very efficient up front. I have a spearco 2-230 like FieroX is using on his turbo setup as well. I thought about using PVC for the main straight pipes, is it non-compatible with the coolent? Just wondering if you knew whether I had to run the copper IC lines or if a rubber/synthetic/plastic would work as well.
Black88fiero-Actually when we were intstalling the front timing cover we checked the clearance between the chain and the oil pump cover and i had ten thousandths of an inch of clearance. I read on club gp about people double gasketing or machining the cover and im kinda worried. Is ten thousands enough clearance because i really dont want to take that timing cover off to go get that machined down.
Jncomutt- you know to be totally honest i wouldnt think that the antifreeze would react badly with the PVC but who knows. Are you trying to use the PVC because of the ease of putting it together? Its pretty easy to braze the copper piping together with silver sodder. It only took me a couple of joints practicing to get the hang of brazing. I was just curious because the copper will dissipate alot more heat than PVC.
brandon87gt- Thanks for the complements. Taking out that bottom section is not too bad. You are really only taking about 1/3 of your trunk out and since it was so small down there i didnt really use it in the first place. To me there are alot more pros than cons to taking that bottom 1/3 out. There is tons more room to fit a large un restrictive exhaust in there and with my pacesetter headers i wanted to run 3 inch so i didnt want to cram my exhaust in there with tight bends. And also i dont have to raise the car near as high in the air to put the cradle in because of the trunk not being in the way now. Lots of people dont want to lose any trunk space because we already have so little but the car is not a daily driver for me so im fine with it.
Daniel, thanks for the intercooler information. I too am going to be running an A/W intercooler and I need something thats going be very efficient up front. I have a spearco 2-230 like FieroX is using on his turbo setup as well. I thought about using PVC for the main straight pipes, is it non-compatible with the coolent? Just wondering if you knew whether I had to run the copper IC lines or if a rubber/synthetic/plastic would work as well.
For the lines going up front, I used 2 of the larger heater core lines from a few parts Fieros I had. They are the correct length, size and they fit up in channel like they where meant to be there. From where the lines end, I ran rubber hose to the IC/back and then the same up to the HE that is mounted infront of the condensor.
i had clearance too. i checked with the pan off.. i assembled mine cranked it with the starter to check oil press.. then i was told that you dont need a timing chain dampner with a double roller so i took the front cover off to remove it and heres what i found: so i bought a machined plate from http://www.prjperformance.com/ i dont trust a double gasket thats a weak point and a chance for a leak.. looks good so far
------------------ Parts for your FWD GM 97-07 Morad Parts Company Moradpartscompany
The problem, I've read, is that the crank gear doesn't get pressed on far enough. If you look at the back side of the supplied lower gear, you will notice the chamfer is a lot smaller than the factory gear. This doesn't allow the gear to fully seat on the crank, which is why you see that pattern more aggressive at the bottom of the plate.
I machined my plate (and haven't ever checked on it), but if you aren't fully assembled yet, it might be best to check the clearance 'behind' the gear and see if it isn't seated back far enough on the crank.
(not my image)
That shows a stock gear, a machined gear, and then a RM gear as supplied.
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 02-21-2008).]
Black88fiero-Well i agree with you that going double gaskets is the shoddy way of doing it and i wouldnt do it that way because of the more likely chance of getting a leak. How much are people taking off the oil pump cover? I thought i read somewhere that it was ten thousandths but im not sure. What i am worried about is that i have ten thousandths of clearance right now but after i start it up that crank gear might move or the chains deflection might be enough to make it rub that cover then.
Looks great so far, I'm at the same point you are just about with my swap and I'm also using Pacesetter headers and have cut out my trunk like your pictures, I'm kinda confused as to how to build the exhaust though and I'm tryin to do it myself with various bends etc, also in 3" as u state, can you post some pictures of how you make yours, maybe what other size parts/pipes your using, I'm using a 3" in to dual 2.5" out spintech muffler and I have a 3" catcon but I'm not sure I wanna try to get it in there seems tight already...
not sure if it is right but a stock plate is .157 somthing and a machined plate was close to .115 i think, i measured it but for got what it was exactly. i see the difference on the gears.. manufactures are getting cheap aren't they cant even machine a darn gear right... daniel87fierogt who did you get your fuel rail from?
------------------ Parts for your FWD GM 97-07 Morad Parts Company Moradpartscompany
[This message has been edited by black88fiero (edited 02-23-2008).]
There was a guy on the forum here making these rails. He only made a couple of them i believe. I bought this one off someone here that bought it from the maker but then he ended up not using it. I got a really good deal on it and since i didnt want to buy the 400 dollar prj rails i saved alot. These look alot like skitimes rail that he designed for his 3800.
You might find that those fuel lines are going to situate the rubber right in the path of the blower belt, but I might be wrong depending on the angle I am seeing it from.
I hope you went with 1.7 rockers, as 1.6's would seem like a waste with that small cam you have.
Since you can run it on stock heads without any problems... Its small in the lift department, obviously the duration is significant, but just because zzp does not sell a cam inbetween the "max stock heads" and "max modded heads" does not mean there is not a middle road.
Intense happens to offer some very nice "light head work" cams out there, like the turbo stage 3/4 and blower stage 2/3.
There is plenty of lift left in a stock 3800 head, and if you have ported heads, why wouldnt you take advantage of the larger port size?
Yeah i know i was thinking the same thing, since when is the XP cam a small cam? And no the fuel lines will not contact the supercharger belt. Why would you say that the comp cam rockers are a waste at stock 1.6 ratio. I dont ever have to worry about rocker failure or deflection with the 130lb springs. I didnt have the valve guides machined down. I am using modded retainers and the extra clearance viton valve seals. So i am good up to about .565" lift. With the 1.7 rockers and xp cam that would put me at .558" intake and .570" exhaust. I had the heads flowbenched after they were ported and polished and they still didnt flow that much more after .500" lift. Why stress the valvetrain more when that extra .030" lift isant going to make much of a difference. I was actually going to use the XPZ cam and get the heads clearanced for up to .600" but instead i went with the XP and im sure i will be over 350 whp with a good tune. Probably when the aluminum heads come out, i will switch to a bigger cam and go whipple or turbo.
i dont like the deflection excuse that the rocker manufactures parade around, but I do agree that it is similar to taking the weight of a piston out of the rotating assembly, inherently increasing horsepower by at least %1.
heads flow alot different when boost is applied, I rarely see heads flowtested by pushing air through them, most benches pull air through the valves.
My secret setup involves a VS cam and 1.7 rockers. It makes for cake tuning, and really maxes out the stock lift heads.
Actually its not comp cams that say that stock rockers have rocker deflection but ZZP has a couple articles on there site saying that in there testing they have seen up to .020-.040 lost to rocker deflection. So i dont know but ZZP does do alot of R&D. I wasent aware that there would be a difference in the way the air is either pushed or pulled through the heads. If i would have went with the VS cam then i would have went with 1.7 rockers.
Some more updates and pictures tomorow night. We are going to be reinstalling the fuel tank with the new walbro 255 and running the intercooler piping and i can also provide pics of the relocation of the slave cylinder to clear the header crossover.
I just recieved my new idler and tensioner pulleys from nate herbst and the 8 groove powerbond harmonic ballancer from ZZP so progress is moving along. I got the tank reinstalled but havent got the intercooler piping soddered up yet.
David, Thats funny that you mention the car show because i just found out about it a couple of days ago. I wish the car was done so i could have it in the car show but its a no go for the car this year. I really want to go myself because there is 10 spots reserved for fieros so there should be atleast a few fieros there to see. The car wont even make it to this years Coast Run either because i am in a fire academy and the day of the coast run is a mandatory Ventilation day so i cant go. But next year the car will be ready for the West fest and the coast run. I was also thinking about bringing the car out to texas to do one of the events that you guys do out there. We will see how things end up. Thanks for the complements though.
