A cowboy named Bud was overseeing his herd, in a remote mountainous pasture in California, when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.
The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the cowboy, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, Will you give me a calf?"
Bud looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing herd, and calmly answers, "Sure, Why not?"
The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects it to his RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location, which he then feeds to another NASA satellite, that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.
The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg , Germany ..
Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image has been processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email, on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives his response.
Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the cowboy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves.."
"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Bud.
He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.
Then Bud says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"
The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"
"You're a Congressman for the U.S. Government", says Bud.
"Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"
"No guessing required." answered the cowboy. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep. ......
This Wednesday and Saturdays picture and progress update!
First, the new 3-core Champion Aluminum Radiator...
And it mounted... Joe used a neat technique to replace the hard rubber mounts on the bottom and the top. Very snug and no metal to metal contact...
And with a custom air containment shield to replace the ratty and ripped stock model..
Next.... Tony going to town on the front suspension....
You had to be there to appreciate Tony's sense of humor... He was making chimp sounds as he was doing this and Joe and I were laughing our heads off.. truly funny moments!
Installed!!! Now for brakes and tie rod ends and sway bar... they are all ready to go in... THANKS TONY!
The finished West Coast Alt mount! It fits, it is well made and the alternator can be changed out from above!! Thanks Chris and WCF! (view is top down, in the car...left side of pic going to front of car...
Joe has the exhaust system done! Got the C6 tips in and they look GREAT!
Joe finished fabbing his original plan for induction. This turned out really well and is setup to be easily attached to a side scoop when I get to that point. Top quality fabbing here!
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And last but not least...an almost finshed bay... needs some cleaning and tie ups but it is coming along... See note in pic... Joe and I got a kick out of the magnet mounts for the tool he made for the belt tensioner...
More soon!!! Jeff
[This message has been edited by Dogcreek (edited 04-07-2012).]
Wered u manage to find one of those i live in new york and i could never get my hands on one so ive settled on a 3800 but ill love one of those bad boys
Thanks for the nice comments Frank and Dobey... it is so close I can taste it!
Dobey: Don't know if you saw it on page 4 but there is a pics of the key and push start setup... What do you think?
Isolde:Thanks for the link... I saved that as they look like another good source... cool and thanks!
Hudson: I got mine from Morad Motors. They have a nice searchable Ebay store.... Just search under Ebay Motors ~ Also the link Isolde sent looks very promising...
Now... three of you are from the East coast and I feel for you.... The heat storm must royally suck! We will be in the 90's tomorrow here but with low humidity.. I don't know how you do it! Hang in there and drink lot's of water!!
Thanks for the nice comments Frank and Dobey... it is so close I can taste it!
Dobey: Don't know if you saw it on page 4 but there is a pics of the key and push start setup... What do you think?
Isolde:Thanks for the link... I saved that as they look like another good source... cool and thanks!
Hudson: I got mine from Morad Motors. They have a nice searchable Ebay store.... Just search under Ebay Motors ~ Also the link Isolde sent looks very promising...
Now... three of you are from the East coast and I feel for you.... The heat storm must royally suck! We will be in the 90's tomorrow here but with low humidity.. I don't know how you do it! Hang in there and drink lot's of water!!
More pics in the next day or so - Jeff
Hehe. The New Yorkers are the ones really suffering I guess. I've certainly been in worse heat before. 100+ degree day at the drag strip, and the starting line cooking to 400+ degrees. You know it's hot when your shoes stick to the tarmac.
As for the ignition switch, if you like it, and it works for you, it's ok I guess. I don't want to use a generic key switch in my car, or the push button, though. I thought about doing the keyless push button start for a while, but decided not to, as it's not really worth the trouble. It's probably easier to mount, but dealing with the headache of the key fobs isn't something I'm wanting to muck around with.
Do you have a wiring diagram of the GXP ignition switch? Or a diagram of the GXP turn signal stalk wiring? I'm very interested in both if you do.
Looking forward to seeing a video of the car running.
Dobey: Thanks for your thoughts.... We did the placement as a soon to be (when my wallet recovers) addition is an RFID system. I will keep the switch but may relocate it... When we do that the key will go away...
Now... three of you are from the East coast and I feel for you.... The heat storm must royally suck! We will be in the 90's tomorrow here but with low humidity.. I don't know how you do it! Hang in there and drink lot's of water!!
Yep, I was out in the garage for 30min tonight and that was enough for me... I came into the house my wife asked if I was out in the yard playing in the sprinkler. LOL
Jeff, when you get a chance can you give me a shot straight down over the motor on the passenger side? I'm going with an on radiator electric water pump and thinking of running the TB on the passenger side of the motor (Standard orientation) to give me more clearance for the turbo over the transmission. I'm going to run the stock LS4 TB with the LS2 intake and hopefully squeeze an elbow in clearing the tower...
Here is another good parts resource link, I use it all of the time...
I don't understand were you are going with your build! The standard orientation for the throttle body is on the driver side. Why would you go to the trouble of getting a LS4 with the FWD engine orientation and then get rid of the water pump and run an electric pump? If you are going that route you don't need an LS4 use a LS6 instead. Remember the LS4 has a very flat accessory drive setup that fits into the Fiero with very few mods the the car.
Joe Sokol (Jeff's Builder)
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
Hey Joe, I meant standard LS2 intake orientation sorry. I'd like to do this for a couple of reasons, to make more room available on the drivers side over the transmission (for a turbo) and to reverse cool the block by pumping water into the heads first (top ports of the block) lowering the risks of detonation from forced induction. I totally agree with you about the accessory drive and ease of install for a normally aspirated application as you guys have demonstrated so well with this build... But, the LS4 offers a lot more advantages than just a flat water pump and accessory drive, right?
I'm going with a 50 GPM remote electric water pump mounted directly on the cold side of the radiator at the lowest point pushing water to the motor...
Hey Joe, I meant standard LS2 intake orientation sorry. I'd like to do this for a couple of reasons, to make more room available on the drivers side over the transmission (for a turbo) and to reverse cool the block by pumping water into the heads first (top ports of the block) lowering the risks of detonation from forced induction. I totally agree with you about the accessory drive and ease of install for a normally aspirated application as you guys have demonstrated so well with this build... But, the LS4 offers a lot more advantages than just a flat water pump and accessory drive, right?
I'm going with a 50 GPM remote electric water pump mounted directly on the cold side of the radiator at the lowest point pushing water to the motor...
Frank
The LS4 has a shorter crank snout and has the FWD bell housing pattern. It doesn't have the standard FWD starter mount though, but if you're going with the 4t65e-HD mounted to the LS4 originally, then it's fine, since the starter is on the trans. And it's a Gen IV block.
Beyond that, there really isn't much advantage. Though they are probably a lot cheaper than just buying an LS2 or LS3, and as I understand, the heads are better than the ones on the LS3, in stock form, anyway
Originally posted by Dogcreek: Dobey: Thanks for your thoughts.... We did the placement as a soon to be (when my wallet recovers) addition is an RFID system. I will keep the switch but may relocate it... When we do that the key will go away...
What do you plan next on yours?
It looks like it won't be as hot today (high of 90 instead of over 100), so hopefully will get my garage cleaned out a bit more, and my new parts washer put together, and get the crank and cam out. I have a 58x reluctor wheel waiting to replace the 24x that's on it. I still need to get a new style (4x) cam gear, new sensors, lifters, cam, and head bolts. I also need to figure out if the LS2/3 water pump will clear the LS4 cam sensor. It looks like it might be pretty tight in that area. I also need to figure out if the LS2/3 pump will clear the strut tower.
And I need to figure out the wiring for the GP turn signal stalk, the Caddy STS wiper switch, and the GP ignition switch. As well as where to mount the ignition switch. Looks like it's time to find another gauge surround and start playing with some foam and fiberglass to make a place for mounting the switch. Hopefully, I can get all this worked out soon. I really want to get the new column and wheel in the car.
The LS4 has a shorter crank snout and has the FWD bell housing pattern. It doesn't have the standard FWD starter mount though, but if you're going with the 4t65e-HD mounted to the LS4 originally, then it's fine, since the starter is on the trans. And it's a Gen IV block.
Exactly... but lets not forget HV oil pump & 243 heads.
(Edit: Sorry, just read again and you mentioned the heads. However the LS3 heads are much better and out flow the 243 castings by far)
Frank
[This message has been edited by TurboTec (edited 07-08-2010).]
Originally posted by TurboTec: Exactly... but lets not forget HV oil pump & 243 heads.
(Edit: Sorry, just read again and you mentioned the heads. However the LS3 heads are much better and out flow the 243 castings by far)
Frank
I think the oil pump is only a benefit if you keep the DoD system in tact. As I understand from poking about through a couple other forums, the oil pumps on the AFM cars can actually pump out too much oil, and leave the sump dry, on the regular engines, under certain conditions. So, with deleting the DoD entirely and going with LS2 lifters/valley, it may well be better to swap out the oil pump for a regular LS2 pump as well. But that may just be an issue with the oil pans on the FR configuration cars, vs the seemingly large LS4 oil pan. I'm planning on changing the oil pan out for a low profile Vette/CTS pan instead, to give a little bit more room for exhaust routing under the front of the motor, so I'll be changing out the oil pump as well.
Na, the extra oil will be going to the turbo... I found you will loose about 10PSI on a stock system just with the addition of a turbo. Good oil pressure and flow is a good thing with forced induction...
I would rethink that pan swap... Special designed oil pan baffles, and windage trays, are incorporated into the LS4 to ensure that the oil sump stays loaded during high-g cornering, acceleration and braking. GM designed this booger to run sideways...
[This message has been edited by TurboTec (edited 07-08-2010).]
Yes, they designed it to run transversely, but they didn't design it for more than 0.85g in any direction. The '05-'06 'vette LS2 pan is designed to exceed 1g, sustained, in every direction, so it would be even better for an extreme-performance Fiero. It may also give better ground clearance.
Yes, they designed it to run transversely, but they didn't design it for more than 0.85g in any direction. The '05-'06 'vette LS2 pan is designed to exceed 1g, sustained, in every direction, so it would be even better for an extreme-performance Fiero. It may also give better ground clearance.
It would probably be more correct to say they designed the oil pan for the DoD, than to be in a FWD car. Looking at the inside of the pan, there isn't really anything that says to me "this is designed to be in a FWD high performance car." Rather, as it wasn't going into a sports car, accelerating and lateral G force probably weren't much of a concern, as even with 300hp at the crank, it take a little more umf to get the 3600 lb GXP moving. I don't know if the oil pan was changed for the 07-08 engines, but the 05-06 pan doesn't look spectacular by any means.
The C6 Vette pan, on the other hand, does indeed look like it was designed to handle high performance applications. I'm pretty sure I'll be going with the C6 low profile pan. I don't think ground clearnace is an issue for either pan in the Fiero, but the low profile pan does give more room for routing exhaust underneath, as the stock 2.8 setup runs.
Well, I think I've gotten most of the wiring figured out for the GP turn signal stalk. There are a few wires I'm not so sure about yet, and the hazard switch seems to behave oddly. It appears that electricity is flowing through it when the button is up, rather than down. Is this the same behavior on yours?
To test with a multimeter the blk/wht wire on the larger connector (A marking on plastic next to it), is where I connected the multimeter gnd, and the tan wire on the smaller connector (pin 16), is where I connected the other end of the multimeter, in the lowest resistance test mode. With the hazard button down, it sits at 1, but with it up, the resistance drops. Seems backward to me.
Stopped by Fieroking's yesterday, after a nice sweet drive down the Palouse. (There are some exceptional roads in our neck of the woods. ) Joe had a clan of Fiero owners standing around with hands in pocket. I too, became one of the masses. Dogcreek's car is coming along in leaps and bounds. Jeff has just about had every inch touched on his "old" Fiero. Heart transplant. Flexed muscle in the steering department. Upgraded and freshened suspension, and brakes. This is really becoming one of the very best Fieros out there. It is a well cared for lady, and will only improve with age. Ever so close to startup.
The ape pics. He, he, he. The vice was in use. That is all...
Edit: Almost forgot. Thanks for the headlamp hardware Fieroking.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 07-11-2010).]
The Hazard switch is off in the down position of the GXP column that I am installing in Jeff''s car.
Joe Sokol
Oh, I just remembered to ask… Is there any interference with the Fiero gauge pod and the GP steering column shroud? I haven't tried to fit it in yet, but from my measurements, it looks like there could be some clearance issues there. But those measurements are also based on the telescoping Caddy column I have, so I'm not sure what the measurements are on the standard tilt columns.
The tilt whell has full movement.... BUT.... with the wide odd shaped GXP column there is some cutting to do on the upper and lower covers. Based on what we looked at today I think the gaps can easily be sealed with rubber flanges that will still look nice.
1 month to go to NW FieroFest..... Lot of things to do to my car, Joe 3's, Aarons and Tylers... but we WILL make it! to do... The Spokane club will be ready!!!
Anyway.... I walk in today and Joe (FieroKing and builder) says "well I have some bad news... we won't be able to start today as the AC hoses I got back from the AC guy are too short," my reply... no problemo.... we have plenty to do and we sure did.... Here is today's "done" list
Mirrors mounted Brakes bled Power Applied!!! Headlights work, running lights, windows, courtesy, Fuel pump, Gauges, idiot lights etc... Oil and filter Door panels readied for install with new attachment points Install front sway bar links Steering wheel centered and ready for correct tie rod ends
So.... to start things off on a humorous note.... we told Aaron and Tony we changed our minds on the swap and showed them this... It was funny but maybe you had to be there!
LOL... anyway... here are a few of the things we did or wrapped up...
Radiator, fan/shroud and bottle plumbed and ready to go
and the front is done, stainless lines, sway bar, and the suspension that Tony put together last weekend... Looking good!
Gauge pod, column and relay converter system installed.... This is a nice, comfortable fit..... Looks good from the drivers seat as well...
And for Frank..... This is the best I can do on "down shots" but hope these will help... First the overall engine compartment...
and..... passenger side rear view...
And from the passenger side... closer view... front of pic is to the right...
Column and relay column conversion system...
And last.... the headlight go up and down and work!!! Small steps but big progress....
Things will be happening fast from here on out..... More posts to come....
Jeff
[This message has been edited by Dogcreek (edited 04-07-2012).]
What are all the relays for on the column install? From my poking at the column/steering wheel, the only bits that need anything special really, are the wiper controls and the audio/cruise controls on the steering wheel. But I'm not quite sure how a few relays would help with that, since there is only a minute change in resistance across the different buttons.
I believe it was because he used the gxp wheel and column, and none of the switches in the GXP column were meant to handle high current like the fiero's column switches.. So they needed a relay for each directional signal, hazards, running lights, parking lights, headlights, hi/low selector, etc.
I'm sure Joe will chime in with the details, but I think that's the gist of it..
------------------ ---------------------------------------------------- Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap
Arron hit it right. In removing the fiero column and going to a push button start I had to replace the functions done by the 3 mechanical switches on the column and Instrument cluster (turm/hazard, key start, and running/headlights). The hardest to replace is the Turn Signal/Hazard switch. I used 7 relays to replace the mechanical switch on column with inputs from the GXP column. The running light/headlight switch needed 3 relays and the Key switch needed just 2. All this fit into the area below the drive side speaker. I am using the wiper controls on the column to run the Fiero wiper, my measurements show that the resistances are very close so hopefully will work as advertised.
Joe Sokol (Jeff's builder)
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
It's not the wiring, but the switches themselves. Fiero turn signal switch and ign switch are HUGE monsters in and above the column. GXP column switches are dainty little princesses that were designed to communicate with the BCM which then did the heavy lifting.
Originally posted by aaronkoch: It's not the wiring, but the switches themselves. Fiero turn signal switch and ign switch are HUGE monsters in and above the column. GXP column switches are dainty little princesses that were designed to communicate with the BCM which then did the heavy lifting.
Right, but if you're removing the Fiero switches, then their abilities are irrelevant, and what matters is how much amperage is going through the wires (and would thus be going through the switches).
And I don't think it's entirely true about communicating with the BCM instead. There's no logic at all inside the turn stalk. It's mostly just a bunch of copper touching (or not) some other copper. Some of the wires are pretty small, and might just melt down with too much amperage, though.
I'm just interested if anyone's actually measured what the differences and limits are, between the Fiero and GXP turn stalks.
The reason for using relay's is, the relay can carry a heavier Amp Load. The switches in the GXP column provide a path to ground for the relays coil, The contacts in the relay carry the load this way I don't burn out the GXP column switches that are dainty little princesses.
I don't know the amp loads but as an example the fuse for the turn signal/ backup lights is 20 amps. Most automotive relays can carry 15 amps with no problem. The main relays in the power circuit Aux and Run are rated at 30 amps.
Joe Sokol (Jeff's builder)
------------------ 85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II 88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)
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He, he, he. The vice was in use. That is all...
