are those the 8" or 10" springs ? the reason i ask is i started out with 8 " springs at 260 lbs (thinking this would be about stock rate ) and quickly found that an 8" spring at 260 lbs just was not going to cut it . too much bottoming out and not enough travel .a trip to the QA-1 website confirmed that to do the same job a shorter spring needs a higher rate .for the front end weight of a fiero with an 8" spring you need about 400 lb rate .with my drop spindles i had room for a 10" spring so i went with a 300 lb rate 10" spring and it has worked really well . i have the same small body carrera shocks as yours .
Hmmm... interesting. My springs are the shorter 8" ones and are 325 lb/in. Have you got any pictures of what your car looks like from the side with the 10" long springs? How tall are your tires, what's your ground clearance from the bottom of the front crossmember, and what does the space between the top of the tire and the fender lip measure?
i just raised it up a tad to suit the new trolley jack i bought .since i just measured what you asked i need to adjust it some more .its a little high on the drivers side .average height above the tires is 1.75" .there is 6" clearance below the front cross member right now .i am running 205/55 /16 tires on the front .my car is an 86 gt with Held sport suspension kit (not the kit with the custom cross member) and i have street dreams by ross 2" drop spindles .i have ran it quite a bit lower and still had good travel on the springs .since you bought your suspension with drop spindles , you should easily be able to run a 10" spring and get the ride height you want . and you have a big advantage over me because you have the longer control arms you can run the QA-1 HAL shocks .these are much better than the small body shocks .they cant be used with stock length arms so i am stuck with the small bodies .lots of pics of my car on my thread "ecotec swap". i wish my stuff looked as good as yours , everything looks perfect .
I have to say Blooz this thread is the WOW factor! The bad part of it is you get a nice motor that has good compression and open it up just to find some of the pistons were missing parts. Not only that but the build up would turn most of us away and toss the motor! With the level of detail you have put on the motor alone is astonishing to say the least. And then the suspension. In reality you could of bought a newer LS (not LS1 yuck) motor with low to no miles for the price you did the N* for. But then again its in all what you have the love for. Ive built 318 motors over some 360s at times for customers because they like the higher rev.
Couple of questions for you. I spent the last two hours going over your build but didn't read all of it because I was tenting to much and the wife got disturbed lol.
(1) When you had the camshaft redone, is it stock grind or did you have them bump it up a few? (2) Did you replace the motor cradle or fix the one with a ton of holes in it? (3) When building the N* were you going for stock 0 miles motor or is there going to be more HP? (4) Why the N*? There low revving and seem to have issues with head gaskets, not only that but aftermarket parts are hard to come by (not that you are having a hard time because you have them made)
I do have to put this in here take it as good or bad, but that Ferrari kit isn't worthy of what you have done so far! Your work and detail is a loss of words! I personally think you should do a one off body kit of no other to justify the work that has already gone into this incredible machine. Im not saying your kit will be ugly by no means nor is Ferrari ugly (FXX is my top 5 best cars). Also I think we all would love to see what you would do as a one off body seeing how your taste of detail and products/items used is.
Originally posted by Ruffy:(4) Why the N*? There low revving <snip> Robert S Liao
6500 seems like a reasonable rev but with a set of springs your good to 7500 which seems almost overboard for a street car. My opinion of course. I am also slightly biased so take that into consideration.
Thanks Robert for all the compliments. I'll see if I can answer your questions in the order you asked them:
1. Why a Northstar vs an LSx? I guess it's a matter of personal preference... I already have a SBC powered 308 kit, and for me, the LS series engines are just the spiritual successors to the small block. Fifteen years ago when I built my 308 kit, the TPI engine was very cool. Now it's almost boring. This time I wanted something different so that in 10 or 15 years it will still have the Wow Factor, that being the four cam, 32 valve set-up. It's pretty exotic when you stop and think about it.
2. Camshafts: When I had the exhaust cams re-profiled, I stayed with the OEM specs. I did this to limit the number of variables when I finally get around to tuning the PCM. Lots of people here on PFF with much more PCM tuning experience than I have (read: none), have had difficulties getting their Northstars to run flawlessly on custom tunes. I plan to keep my engine as stock as possible until I get it running properly, and then make upgrades one change at a time to limit the adverse effects of multiple simultaneous upgrades.
3. The cradle: I'm working on a new cradle. That's the stage I'm at right now. I've taken a few weeks off from the thread to get the spring cleaning, gardening, car tune ups, and some house renos done. My next posts will cover the new rear suspension in drawings and show why a redesigned cradle will be beneficial, apart from the fact that the old one was rotted through.
4. More HP: As I mentioned before, I plan on wringing out the bugs with the Northstar in stock config. I may create some headers for it, but the rest will be stock for now. Once it's working right, then new cams & valve springs would be my first step to improving HP and redline.
5. Low revving engine: Cptsnoopy answered this one.
6. One-off body: I don't want to sound condescending, but there is a huge difference between building a fiberglass kit car and designing one! I appreciate your confidence in me being able to pull it off, but the reality is that I have very little experience fabricating fiberglass parts. I'm in awe at guys like Whodeanie who can shape and mold parts with an excellent eye for proportion, and outstanding body work skills. If I were to even attempt a one-off body, it would take ten years before the thing ever saw the light of day! I do plan to make many original tweaks to the poor quality IFG fiberglass kit I bought. It'll be a trial-by-fire as I venture into the world of foam molds and bucks, but I think I'll be able to change your mind about the worthiness of the Ferrari kit. Stay tuned!
Let's all volunteer to go up to Blooze's place and deal with this stuff: " I've taken a few weeks off from the thread to get the spring cleaning, gardening, car tune ups, and some house renos done" so he can get back to work on the car!
Seriously, thanks for the great documentation of your super project, Blooze. It's not often one gets a chance to watch an artist at work.
Let's all volunteer to go up to Blooze's place and deal with this stuff: " I've taken a few weeks off from the thread to get the spring cleaning, gardening, car tune ups, and some house renos done" so he can get back to work on the car!
Seriously, thanks for the great documentation of your super project, Blooze. It's not often one gets a chance to watch an artist at work.
Tom
I'm in - I hate it when I can't get a daily dose of the Blooz build!
You guys are great! I'm assuming you do know I have a hobby farm right? Because the chicken coop needs mucking out, the horse manure pile needs turning, and someone needs to replace the cedar shingles on the barn. I can't wait 'til you guys get here! BTW, Gene the Rooster (named after Gene Simmons) will decide if he likes you enough for you to stay. He's kinda picky about who he likes... bring him an extra hen if you want to tilt the odds in your favor.
The drawings are just great, and a lot of man hours. I agree that there should be a repository for just for CAD files some where here in PFF.
One of the best books I have found on suspensions is "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken & Milliken ISBN 1-56091-526-9 , It's published by the Society of Automotive Engineers and you can get it on Amazon.
And it covers tri-link struts like ours.
That would be great. Especially if it were a Solidworks, or similar file.
Thanks guys for all your interest. I'll be back at it soon, other priorities crept up that have demanded my attention for the past couple weeks. For Fiero2M8: Be sure to let me know next time you're in the area...
Blooz, the work you do directly matches the level of technical advice you give everyone. You are truly one of the Fiero greats with your craftsmanship. Beautiful work, my friend.
OKay, okay... I'm finally off my summer of relaxation (yeah right!) and am back with my nose to the grindstone.
Several people have pined about having front suspension drawings done up that are equivalent to the ones I did for the rear suspension. Over the next couple days, I'll be measuring up my '88 front crossmember and entering the data into electronic format to start the process. I'll post the drawing of the front crossmember within a few days, then add the suspension bits from there. Once that's completed, hopefully we'll have the complete picture of the stock '88 Fiero suspension. In an ideal world, that should make it easier to predict what effects modifications will have on handling, but I suspect it's going to be like opening Pandora's Box. Stay tuned!
The cradle will be a newly fabricated one, but the final design details will depend on how the planned changes interact with the front suspension. That's why I'm studying the front now.
In a nutshell, the new cradle will have the side rails pushed outboard instead of having them kinked inwards. That will relocate the lateral links further outboard as well, giving more clearance for the link mounts to be moved higher up. As for color... you guessed right... I like how silver gives the illusion of being a lighter, more exotic metal.
Wow is all I can say! Bloozberry thank you soooooo much for your thread. I have learned an amazing amount of info just from reading your story. As for me I'm in the middle of building an f355 with a n*. Sounds familliar right. My car was started by Bob Nielsen= former publisher of the Fiero News. He had health problems and unfortunately couldnt finish. Its built on an 88 formula. The best part is the N* that he purchaced in 96 from an eldorado that was totalled leaving the dealership. I also only live about 20min door to door from alan at chrfab so help is nearby. He wanted the engine bad since it has no wear and tear. It's has a rebuilt getrag 5spd with centerforce cluch and custom flywheel. Basiclly he was building the car the right way and has all top of the line parts. Anyway I just wanted to say thanks for the inspiration.
Thanks 5150fauxarri, and welcome to the forum. Sounds like our projects have a lot in common so we may be able to benefit from each other's experience. So is your car running at this time? You should start a thread in Tech Discussion and document as much about your car as possible (with pictures) so that others may be able to glean ideas from your car about things like exhaust routing, engine management, flywheel design, etc.
Hey Blooz. Unfortunatelly I'm affraid I dont have the time to post everything like you do. On top of that I'm really computer illiterate which is why I don't have a picture next to my name and it took me a week to figure out how to make the right e-mail just to be on this sight. I have 3 kids who take up a lot of my time so I'm lucky just to get out and work on my car let alone write about it. Anyway about the car. My stock subframe was in perfect shape so a new front cross bar was put in place and except the trans mount(still stock possition) the rest was then cut out. The engine has been in and out at least 10 times working on proper fitment but I'm at the point where I'm going to have to weld up my mounts. This monday(labor day here) all my mounts well be done and I will be moving on from there. Anyway I will try to get some computer skills to help out people to learn from my(novice) mistakes.
Finally some progress to show... (I know, I know, it's been a while). This latest update may disappoint some though since it's not about shiny parts Instead it’s about more drawings… I've finally completed the '88 front cross member drawing, less all the goodies that attach to it. I wished it could have been a quick and dirty affair, but the reality is that it took 48 hours of labor to measure and enter into electronic format. (I must be the world's slowest drafts-person.)
Much of the difficulty comes from trying to establish a reference line or plane from which to measure all other points out there in 3-space. Just when you think you've got some complex curve finally figured out in two views, something goes all hairy in the third view so it's back to the drawing board... literally.
One thing that threw me for a while until I could get it figured out was that there is a measurement error in the '88 Service Manual on page 3J-6 and 3J-8. These pages refer to the underbody frame alignment specs. Although the cross member itself isn’t covered, these pages do provide some information about the mounting points for it, so it was a logical place to get a few initial reference measurements for my drawings. Here’s one of the pages in question (the other page just lists the numbers and includes the same fault):
Unfortunately in figure 5, the vertical measurement for point C* is wrong. After checking and re-checking several times, then consulting with an earlier year service manual (an ’86), it seems that GM just imported these schematics directly from the ’84 – ’87 Service Manual and modified the numbers to suit the '88… but forgot at least one of them. In fact I know this is what they did because the 3D drawing of the space frame on the previous page isn’t that of an ’88 at all in the ’88 SM. Anyway, on with the show.
Here is the overall 3-view drawing of the front cross member (note that the scale is 1 square = 10mm). The red line is an arbitrary vertical plane I chose through the center of the middle section of the cross member to aid in taking measurements. The horizontal reference plane is the top surface of the main central mounting location of the cross member where four bolts pass through it (two per side):
Because of the size limitations for pictures posted in PiP, I chopped up the 3-view drawing into each of the three views separately to get a bit more detail visible. Here’s the Top View, where most of the pertinent measurements for the whole cross member are shown:
Here is the Rear View, plus a sectioned view of the steering rack mount. One important thing to note is that the cross member is completely symmetrical from left to right, with the exception of an alignment pin on the LH side, mid mount location. I found it curious that GM would have only installed a single alignment pin for the whole thing
And lastly, here’s the LH side view of the cross member. The notable feature from this view is the angle of the upper control arm mount, namely 5 degrees. If you’re not sure why this important, it’ll become clearer once I get around to analyzing the front geometry.
Next up: the control arms… stay tuned.
(Edited to update all four crossmember drawings)
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 11-11-2011).]
A few odds and sods for this post: I bead blasted the harmonic damper to get it nice and clean for paint when I noticed something interesting:
Anyone recognize the symbol? It sure looks like the Briggs and Stratton logo to me. I wonder why that would be stamped into the damper. Hmmmm… are there any 32 valve lawn mowers out there that I’m not aware of?
um actually yes you hit the nail on the head, general motors, ford (especially the svt and racing development), and chrystler , all use briggs and stratton for a lot of engine building, as do many other auto manufacturers, your cars are built by the same people who built your lawn mower. if you can believe that. it is actually true, i have seen this logo and more detail on a ford 5.4 DOHC mustang cobra engine crankshaft. also seen the B&S logo on many pistons http://www.strattec.com/main.html here is their home page, (after supposed split)(i believe is still with briggs very strongly) http://www.strattec.com/oem_customers.html ------------------ 1985 gt notchie auto (pic)| 3800 SFI N/A coming soon 1986 se notchie standard 4spd | for sale after 3800 swap
[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 09-20-2011).]
<Edit ON>: Where are my manners... thanks for the feedback Fieroguru, RCR (Bob), and Fiero2m8. It's nice to know some people stayed tuned in! For BlackGT Codde: I was thinking either Briggs or Harley Davidson Ever noticed how the two logos are almost the same? <Edit OFF>
Anyways, another quick update: Progress has been a bit slow but here's the upper control arm. The end-view sure is busy! I couldn't really add it to the front cross member just yet because it sits at an angle to the floor as seen both from the side and rear view of the cross member. I know what the angle is from the side view (5 deg) but from the rear view I don't know what it is just yet. I'll need to draw the lower control arm and set it parallel to the ground, then draw both ball joints and the knuckle before the upper control arm angle can be determined. I guess I should have started with the lower control arm eh? (<--- Canadianism).
Hopefully the lower control arm won't take as long... the rainier the weather, the more I stay inside, the faster things get done.
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 09-20-2011).]
Be sure to let me know next time you're in the area...
Instead it’s about more drawings… I've finally completed the '88 front cross member drawing, less all the goodies that attach to it. I wished it could have been a quick and dirty affair, but the reality is that it took 48 hours of labor to measure and enter into electronic format. (I must be the world's slowest drafts-person.)
