Originally posted by jscott1: Does anyone know the part number for the firebird headlight switch connector? I can't find it in my parts CD. I hear it's ridiculously expensive, but I would like to find a source for it at any prince.
Are these things Gold Plated, with diamond encrusted insulation?
I'm going to have to go another way on the headlitght connector. That's the only part I haven't been able to source out.
If you have followed my thread in the mall I am collecting enough parts to go into production on the Firebird PNP. I completed testing on the qualification unit and I am ready to go into production. I am taking pre-orders: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/031175.html
The pricing is going to be a bit higher than what I anticipated because of the higher price of some of these connectors. I was trying to see if I could use all new connectors but that doesn't seem feasible at the current price point. If someone wants all new connectors I can do that special order.
For the front hood release I plan to attach it to the underside of the dash. Presently it's laying on the carpet. Sorry I didn't get to meet everyone at Daytona. My goal was to just hang out and put a face with a screen name. I didn't get to do that as much as I had hoped.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-30-2006).]
...and while I have your attention: what did you do for the front hood release lever (pictures if possible)??
thanks, Tim
Here is a picture of what I did with the hood release on the ZR-2 Camaro dash. I didn't like the latch on the bottom of the dash, just didn't look right on the Camaro setup so:
Turned around and mounted to the side of the kick panel. Helps hold uop the carpet as well.
***only applies to those with an engine swap that use the resistor/capacitor circuit to drive the stock speedo
Something I ran into with this install:
If you are going to (or are) do this install and have an engine swap, the speedo may not work correctly.
The problem all stems from the circuit that is added to the output of the VSS signal of the ECM. I will use the 4.9 as an example. The VSS out signal runs through a resistor/capacitor circuit to clamp the signal at a higher level so that it is usable with the Fiero speedo.
There is nothing that prevents the VSS signal from travelling back through the 1k ohm resistor and into the +12v supply. The Fiero speedo works due to internal buffering/filtering, the Firebird does not, as it has no internal buffering/filtering and what happens is that it gets the buffered signal from the Fiero speedo plus the signal through the +12v line and the 2 get mixed inside the Firebird's cluster. Now I am not sure if they partially cancel each other out or there is some harmonic produced (not about to figure it out either - spent the last week just getting this far), but the Firebird speedo now see's a 2000 ppm signal and displays 1/2 the actual speed that you are going.
In my case the 2000ppm signal that drives the cruise control was also affected (on the Fiero speedo). It's peak to peak voltage was reduced to around 50mV. This was not an issue for me as I am using a different cruise system, however the speedo was
To solve: you either drive the Firebird cluster directly from the ECM - (no Fiero speedo, no clamp circuit, etc - just a straight wire from ECM to speedo input); or you will have to block the AC (VSS) signal from travelling back down the +12v line. The first becomes a problem if you need a 2000ppm signal to drive the Fiero cruise module...
anyways, something to remember if you speedo reads 1/2 the speed you are travelling at Tim
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 04-21-2006).]
Thanks Tim, for pioneering this new setup. If/when I get around to doing this swap on my 4.9 I will know how to hook it up. My harness is designed for stock Fieros, and swapped ones are going to be on a case by case basis.
Originally posted by jscott1: Thanks Tim, for pioneering this new setup. If/when I get around to doing this swap on my 4.9 I will know how to hook it up. My harness is designed for stock Fieros, and swapped ones are going to be on a case by case basis.
Opps, I was under the impression that you had a Firebird dash already installed in your 4.9 car Hence some of the questions I was asking you as I assumed you had it in and working correctly. Now I see...
I did let PBJ know about this problem as he was having problems on getting his speedo to work. I am not sure if he still has them problem with the different motor, but it is something to look out for.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 04-23-2006).]
I know you probably don't have my fleet memorized, but my firebird interior is in my T-top which still has the stock 2.8. My chop top has the 4.9, but it is all stock on the interior.
What I've managed to learn about the issues with engine swaps I've learned from feedback from others. Like there is no such thing as a "standard V8 tach" There seems to be multiple ways an engine can reference the rotation, the DIS LT1 is different from a distributor 4.9. I'm told the Northstar uses a 4 cyl reference but I haven't confirmed that, and the LSx series uses something entirely different. Like I said earlier I'll have to deal with each swap as a unique case.
Like there is no such thing as a "standard V8 tach"
Well I have been playing with clusters again lately. If you saw my post in tech...my tach went all screwy on my Proud-2 (firebird swapped dash) but I was fairly certain it wasn't the tach. It turns out I was right my alternator went bad and was sending out all kinds of AC noise on the DC bus.
But since I had my cluster out anyway to test it, I decided to give myself an upgrade to a 150 MPH cluster. And to help trouble shoot some of these tach issues, I decided to get a signal generator. I can now do more than a single point calibration. I have also seen that it's impossible to get them accurate across the full scale, but since my car is a manual I wanted it accurate near the redline...so I have it dead on at 5,000 RPM.
Also in the interest of odometer integrity I finally found a cluster with less miles on it than my car. For me the digital odometer is like time under Einstein's Special Relativity, I can speed it up, slow it down, even stop it, but I can't make it go backwards. So I found that at about 400 hz I can get it up to about 300 mph and get to the proper mileage a lot quicker. I'm almost there, just another hour or so.
Also, I want to give a little cluster 101. If you are out looking for clusters and you want to know if it will work on the Fiero...just remember Blue or Green 5-6-6 = Good
Look at the 34 pin connector and the board on the back...If it is blue it will work (it's a 93 - 96 cluster)
If the board on the back is green, but the pattern on the bottom row, (the B row) is of the pattern 5 pins used, 6 pins unused, 6 pins used, (maybe with a slight variation) It's a 97 or 98 and can be used, (98 with a modified gas gauge)
If the pins on the B row are something like 1-0-1-0-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-0-0-1-1-0-0 Forget it, it's a 99-2002 and it won't work on the Fiero. ( I wrote the pin config to remind you that it's a digital board)
I hope this helps someone to pick out the proper cluster??
And maybe Tim can tell me how to extinguish the low oil light? My drawing says that if A15 is open the light should be off, but that's not working...I may just cut the trace, but I'm looking for a better solution.
And maybe Tim can tell me how to extinguish the low oil light? My drawing says that if A15 is open the light should be off, but that's not working...I may just cut the trace, but I'm looking for a better solution.
The oil light has been an issue for me as well - for some odd reason the cluster (98) I currently have in my car the oil light is not on (probably burnt out of something), but every other cluster I have tried the oil light is always on (gage always reads fine this has been verified with a manual gage). I never had the time to pursue it any more - always trying to figure out the other 4.9 related problems (speedo, tach). Currently I am taking a break from the car, just driving it around and enjoying it, but I will have to figure out the tach soon - maybe my alternator is bad as well. I did throw the scope on it last week and noticed that the tach signal was far from being a nice pulse...
I do have one question for you or any others, my drivers door panel touches the dash, while there is a gap on the passenger side. I did not notice this when I originally install the dash and not about to rip it all out again and have to rework my airbox. I probably can be made to fit exactly but some cutting would have to be done around the console cut out. Anyways, my question is, how does yours fit in this area (gap between the dash and door panels)??
BTW - ooohhh, nice signal generator...mine is one of the predigital ones that came over with Noah on the ark, but hey, it's given me decent service - may not be the exact frequency (dial adjusted with numbers on it), but I can always set it with the scope if I need an exact frequency.
The oil light has been an issue for me as well - for some odd reason the cluster (98) I currently have in my car the oil light is not on (probably burnt out of something), but every other cluster I have tried the oil light is always on (gage always reads fine this has been verified with a manual gage). Tim
Thanks for the feedback Tim...
The "low oil" light has nothing to do with oil pressure, it's a discrete wired to an oil level switch in the oil pan of the firebird, connected through the Powertrain Control Module. When the switch closes, it completes a path through the PCM which provides a ground to A15 and the "Low Oil" inidicator lights.
But like most GM wiring I'm sure there is more to it than what is shown in the Factory Service Manual. I think there is a latch in the Instrument Cluster that keeps the "Low Oil" light lit under certain conditions...maybe if the PCM hasn't checked in after a while it assumes there is a broken wire and turns the light on? Obviously in a Fiero it's useless. I found that I could power cycle the cluster and the "low oil" light would go out. It's still a bit of a mystery.
Thanks for the compliment on the signal generator. I went to my favorite surplus electronics store and they have all this equipment that looks to be from Edison's original laboratory, and in the middle of it all I see this signal generator. I'm thinking I might get it for a couple of dollars but they inform me it's brand new and part of the display... lol
As for the left door that's the one area the Firebird dash doesn't fit so well. If you get the steering column and the right door correct the left door will hit. I have no idea how you fix that on stock door panels, but on mine I trimmed them dowm to make more room. I've trimmed the left one three times and it's still hits a little, you can see one little spot where it hits.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-25-2006).]
Ok, thanks for the info on the oil light, like I said I never really looked into it too much as it is not on with the cluster I have in there now. Maybe one day I will pull out the manual and have a look at it. I just assumed it was hooked into the oil pressure as it is with the Fiero (comes on with low pressure). But then I should know better than to assume things
Good to know that my door is not the only one that touches
A little more info on the "low oil" light. I've figured out the pattern at least. The very first time you apply "hot at all time" power to the cluster the "low oil" will latch and stay on. The next time you power cycle the "hot in run" power the light will go out and not come back again on unless you cycle the " hot at all time" power.
This is only a very minor inconvenience as you will only see it if you disconnect the battery and it will disappear by simple turning the key to run and off. I didn't want to cut the trace to the light because it adds to the light show when you put the key in the ignition and the cluster performs the lamp test.
As a side note, the Fiero cluster does not have a "hot at all time" power connection to it. When I build my harnesses I add that. I never knew of a good reason for doing that before I just did it because that's what the drawing called for.
If you are interested in the Firebird dash send me a PM and I can give you all the information you need. I sell a kit to help with the some of the electricals, but the mechanical stuff you have to do yourself. Haven't had time to make a kit for that.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-26-2006).]
Originally posted by jscott1: As a side note, the Fiero cluster does not have a "hot at all time" power connection to it. When I build my harnesses I add that. I never knew of a good reason for doing that before I just did it because that's what the drawing called for.
The hot always is for the memory in the cluster - also for those clusters with the digital odometer, it keeps the trip odometer memory as well. The cluster resets to initial startup mode when power is removed, which would explain the oil light thing (and resets the trip odometer)
The oil light on my cluster does not activate at all - so there is something wrong with it (does come on with different clusters, so the wiring is correct).
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 09-03-2010).]
The oil light on my cluster does not activate at all - so there is something wrong with it (does come on with different clusters, so the wiring is correct).
Probably nothing wrong with it... Not all clusters have the "Low Oil" It was an option. Just like "TCS" "low coolant" and "skip shif" some have it, some don't I'm trying to make a "one-size-fits-all" Plug and play but I'm not there yet. My latest version has little ground loops that you can cut if you need to extinguish one of those nuisiance idiot lights.
Not all clusters have the "Low Oil" It was an option. I'm trying to make a "one-size-fits-all" Plug and play but I'm not there yet.
Well, if anyone cares, I discovered there is more to the "low Oil" light than I originally thought. There is some timer that turns it back on after some interval. I ended up cutting the trace because my car needs to go be safety inspected and I didn't want a bogus, "low oil" light to fail me. I ptobably couldn't convince the inspector that I'm not really low on oil, it's just a light that's not hooked up to anything.
The fuel gauge can be one from an earlier year Firebird. The mods to make it work are listed earlier in the thread.
I'll repost it here for convenience
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
Fuel gauge in reference to a 98 dash:
On this cluster the fuel gauge is ECM controlled and needed to be replaced. I replaced it with a gauge from a 94 cluster, however some board mods were needed as it was not a direct plug in.
Referring to the picture below: - remove the 3 jumpers marked with a red line. - Install the 3 jumpers in the spots indicated by the black lines - A 24 ohm ½ watt bias resistor is installed in the spot marked with a blue line
It was nice of who ever designed the 98 cluster to include these traces for the old style fuel gauge.
Hope this helps someone out Tim
The tach solution for HEI motors according to Mickey_Moose (Tim)
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
Ok, this may apply to other dash swaps out there with people running an engine swap using a HEI ignition system (ie: 4.9, carb SBC, etc).
Sympton: tach bounces, or work fine till the higher rpms.
Why: the modern tachs are driven off either the ECM or a DIS system and supplies the tach with a nice clean signal - the older systems such as the HEI have quite a bit of noise on the signal and the 'modern' tach can not deal with this noise.
This circuit should eliminate any noise and send a cleaner square wave to you tach input. Edit: fixed picture
I kind of took the lazy way out by hacking up an old Fiero tach to get the filtering circuit out of it. I also have no ideal if the component values are the same as the above diagram (never cheacked).
Sorry, I didn't have a working digital camera to take pictures as I cut up the board, but you should be able to get an ideal of where I cut it from the pictures.
Front view, the large round hole in the lower right is the input to the tach, the resistor pack (white chip) is part of the one that get removed when doing the V8 tach mod.
Rear view, shows a better ideal of the cut in relation to the traces. The brown wire is ground and the upper yellow wire will feed your tach. The lower yellow one is the input from the distributor.
Anyways, there you have it. Tim
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-17-2006).]
When I first started the thread I never expected it to morph into what it has become. Thanks guys for going the extra step to keep this alive so that it will encurage others to try something different (dash) to make our cars more up-to-date.
Just to add about the fuel gage - most any late model GM gage will work (pior to 98). I noticed the GrandAm, Grand Prix, etc gages are the correct size and such - just make sure that the one you get sweeps in the correct direction.
One other thing to point out is that the pin that holds the pointer arm is of different sizes (usually larger) on the older gages - so you will have to use a tiny drill bit to drill out the hole on the pointer so the old gage will fit, or use a different pointer. I was able to use a gage from a earlier Firebird dash and just used the pointer that it came with - it has a slightly different shape if you look closely.
Untimately I find it to be a lot easier to buy the clusters with the working fuel gauge. But I have a set of 98s that I need to fix so knowing how to do it is nice. I have found people prefer the digital odometer so fixing a group of these 98 clusters is on my "to-do" list.
If I had thought about it, I would have started a thread in Tech with a more descriptive title, but it's too late now.
This existing thread is the most complete collection of Firebird dash install inforation, and I would rather post here than in ten other threads. Thanx
You guys are doing a great job of compiling and documenting this swap! Keep up the good work. I just wish that this resource was available for the Stealth dash too.
one thing that would need to be re-worked about the T/A and Camaro dash is the top dash pad. It is huge due to the gaping f-body windshield, i new dash pad would definatley need to be made. You have to pick up a used one to experiment with, you'll probably find more problems though, just because its the right width doesnt mean it fits. I like the dash a lot but you might wanna check one our with measurements and llok it over real closey before you cough up the $$$ for something that you may not be able to use
You do not have to make a new pad (I am assuming you are talking about the section between the dash and the windshield). You can simply trim the original one to fit (it's not too wide - ie left to right) - it's just a bit long (front to back). Make sure you get the one for the same year of dash you have, there is a slight difference in them in the curve between the passenger airbag and the air vents area (found this out the hard way and had to trim it it to the curve of the dash I have). Also of note, with the stock part you have to make fillers along the sides of the dash for where the original a-pillar trim came down and mated to the dash. The Fiero's a-pillar trim is not as wide. On the Camaro/Firebird they ran the side window defrost ducting through this area. Right now I just have filler strips cut from the cut off of the larger part. I believe others have made tweeter speaker pods to cover this area.
You could also go the route of mrfixit58 and make a new one. Easier if you have a parts car with no windshield as Roy had
Here is an old picture of mine using the stock piece trimmed to fit:
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-23-2023).]
You do not have to make a new pad (I am assuming you are talking about the section between the dash and the windshield).
Tim, I think you just set a record for the most time between a post and a response...GTFiero1 posted that almost 4 years ago.
That filler pad has turned out to be the most painful part of my swap. I tried to be clever and graft on custom ends to the plastic(?) piece. The fiberglass/bondo doesn't want to stick so it's all cracked along the edges. I need to take it out and start over.
If you use the Firebird piece as Tim suggests you are left with the defroster oval in the center versus the long rectangle of the Fiero. I'm not sure how to reconcile that. What I have seen a couple of times it people put in the rectangular Fiero vent and fill in the oval vent with some kind of filler. Either way you have to do something to make it look right.
Tim, I think you just set a record for the most time between a post and a response...GTFiero1 posted that almost 4 years ago.
That filler pad has turned out to be the most painful part of my swap. I tried to be clever and graft on custom ends to the plastic(?) piece. The fiberglass/bondo doesn't want to stick so it's all cracked along the edges. I need to take it out and start over.
If you use the Firebird piece as Tim suggests you are left with the defroster oval in the center versus the long rectangle of the Fiero. I'm not sure how to reconcile that. What I have seen a couple of times it people put in the rectangular Fiero vent and fill in the oval vent with some kind of filler. Either way you have to do something to make it look right.
Guess that is what happens when you surf the net while not feeling too good - but yay, I hold the record...
Actually I found the oval vent works just fine - driven the car a few time were I needed to defrost the windshield and it works just fine, the top left corner is a bit slow, but I think the hump for the gages is the main issue here.
The corner parts, I just have some pieces just sitting in there held down with some double sided tape - if I had half the skill as Roy, I would make a filler like he did all one piece
Guess that is what happens when you surf the net while not feeling too good - but yay, I hold the record...
I spotted it right aways, because I almost did the same thing a few days ago... lol because Cliff's favorite thread deal takes you to the first page and at first I didn't realize it and thought that GTFiero1's post was recent.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-23-2006).]
I'm actually glad to see your response as I have a few questions.
1. How are you diverting the air through the firebird oval defroster vent? Are you using the stock Fiero airbox?
2. Has anyone found a way to make functional side window defrosters? I think that I remember that Roy had done this but I couldn't find any pictures showing it.
I'm actually glad to see your response as I have a few questions.
1. How are you diverting the air through the firebird oval defroster vent? Are you using the stock Fiero airbox?
2. Has anyone found a way to make functional side window defrosters? I think that I remember that Roy had done this but I couldn't find any pictures showing it.
1) modified airbox, the defrost (top) section is still all Fiero (notch to accept the Firebird dash). The section that is modified is the part that bolts to the backside of the dash. It uses a combination of both the Firebird and Fiero parts as well as some custom parts. I think this was the most tedious part of my swap.
2) I currently have tubing just run over to behind the a-pillar trim and is directed at blowing to the rear of the car. There is a gap between the a-pillar and the trim so the air escapes out through there along the side windows. As far as I know, this is all Roy did as well. So far it seems to work fine, although it has not been really cold here (yet). I am thinking of finding some small round vents off a newer car to mount in the a-pillar trim and running the hose to them to blow directly onto the window (but I am not working too fast on it)
1) modified airbox, the defrost (top) section is still all Fiero (notch to accept the Firebird dash). The section that is modified is the part that bolts to the backside of the dash. It uses a combination of both the Firebird and Fiero parts as well as some custom parts. I think this was the most tedious part of my swap.
2) I currently have tubing just run over to behind the a-pillar trim and is directed at blowing to the rear of the car. There is a gap between the a-pillar and the trim so the air escapes out through there along the side windows. As far as I know, this is all Roy did as well. So far it seems to work fine, although it has not been really cold here (yet). I am thinking of finding some small round vents off a newer car to mount in the a-pillar trim and running the hose to them to blow directly onto the window (but I am not working too fast on it)
I'd like to see that modified Airbox. Most people just use flexible tubing, but I think they reduce the airflow because of all the creases. I've got both the firebird and fiero airboxes sitting here and I would like to "crunch" the two of them together, but if you have already figured out how to do that I would appreciate seeing it.
I never found the Fiero defrosters too effective so I didn't even bother to implement that. The Firebird A-pillar trim has those little round vents that you seek, but I don't recall if they are removable. I can check later as I have a set of them.
1) modified airbox, the defrost (top) section is still all Fiero (notch to accept the Firebird dash). The section that is modified is the part that bolts to the backside of the dash. It uses a combination of both the Firebird and Fiero parts as well as some custom parts. I think this was the most tedious part of my swap.
Ditto. I used 2-part plastic adheasive that I got from the body shop supply store to piece the Fiero and Firebird pieces together. I used scrap pieces from the Firebird airbox to connect the two. Not the easiest part of the swap. If I had do-overs I'd use foam and fiberglass.
quote
2) I currently have tubing just run over to behind the a-pillar trim and is directed at blowing to the rear of the car. There is a gap between the a-pillar and the trim so the air escapes out through there along the side windows. As far as I know, this is all Roy did as well. So far it seems to work fine, although it has not been really cold here (yet). I am thinking of finding some small round vents off a newer car to mount in the a-pillar trim and running the hose to them to blow directly onto the window (but I am not working too fast on it)
That's exactly what I did. It probably wasn't necessary because I live in Florida but I did it anyway. I was goint to cut a vent into the A-pillar molding but I never found one that would fit like I wanted.
Thank you all. I have thought about using the Firebird A-pillar and grafting it onto the Fiero A-pillar to make one piece which would cover the corners of the dash and have the vents in it. I havn't looked at the Firebird A-pillers yet though so I have no idea if this will work or not.
Another question I had though is how many of you trimed on the Fiero A-Pillars. I saw Roy's pictures of this but havn't seen any others which did the same. According to my measurments it will be necessary as the space between the Fiero A-Pillars is only 54" wide and the Fierbird dash is 56" wide.
quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:
1) modified airbox, the defrost (top) section is still all Fiero (notch to accept the Firebird dash).
I'm still missing something here. How to you line up a long skinny (Fiero) rectangle with a short wide (Firebird) one?
Thank you all. I have thought about using the Firebird A-pillar and grafting it onto the Fiero A-pillar to make one piece which would cover the corners of the dash and have the vents in it. I havn't looked at the Firebird A-pillers yet though so I have no idea if this will work or not.
Another question I had though is how many of you trimed on the Fiero A-Pillars. I saw Roy's pictures of this but havn't seen any others which did the same. According to my measurments it will be necessary as the space between the Fiero A-Pillars is only 54" wide and the Fierbird dash is 56" wide.
I'm still missing something here. How to you line up a long skinny (Fiero) rectangle with a short wide (Firebird) one?
1) I thought about grafting the Firebird a-pillar as well, the only thing that might be an issue is the rake of the Firebird one. That is as far as I got, never got a Firebird one to try.
2) You will have to trim the a-pillar trim for it to fit - there is no way you can get the trim and the dash to fit without doing so - just make sure you do not make the cut to high.
3) Didn't have to line anything up, the oval vent sits directly over top the Fiero one (the Fiero one is a bit wider, but it seems to work just fine so far - and yes I am in the northern climates ). I can't get a picture of it due to the glare off the windshield. Your thinking too hard
jscott >> for some odd reason I don't have any pictures (or I can't find them right now) of the air duct. I did cheat on the passenger side a bit with some of the flex tubing. I could not find a glue that would hold the pieces together (odd type of plastic) and ended up having to plastic weld the parts together - very time consuming part of the swap.
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Your thinking too hard
It wouldn't be the first time. I know that alot of these questions would be answered as I get into the swap so I appreciate all of you spending the time to answer them for me. I will be sure to return the favor when the time comes.
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